Tosh
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Philosophy is dead.
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Post by Tosh on Oct 20, 2011 11:24:45 GMT -5
Yep, the social group reinforces shared beliefs on death avoidance ( morality ) and death denial ( immortality), the bond forms an extended family of love and goodness.
It has not survived for thousands of years for nothing, the developed world may have less need for religion but only a minority of the world is developed.
Urbanisation also breaks up social groups, we do not like to be alone or feel alone, religiion fills the gap.
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Post by jarhead1976 on Oct 20, 2011 11:37:30 GMT -5
Tosh says "Morality evolved from our genetic instructions to nurture, cooperate and reciprocate, they are reward systems that give us pleasure because they are essential to our survival. Consciousness adapted and expanded these basic needs into thoughts and feelings of empathy, compassion, altruism and love." ........ Now Sir I ask you to tell me what gene along that strand of DNA does this " genetic instruction" appear. What effect would hydrogen bonding have on such a gene? Just saying < i would like your empirical proof? I will assume you can pin point it. Or am I too just take your word for it , In good faith that is ........... Thank you, Femmefatele for the Invitation.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 20, 2011 11:40:28 GMT -5
Tosh says "Morality evolved from our genetic instructions to nurture, cooperate and reciprocate, they are reward systems that give us pleasure because they are essential to our survival. Consciousness adapted and expanded these basic needs into thoughts and feelings of empathy, compassion, altruism and love." ........ Now Sir I ask you to tell me what gene along that strand of DNA does this " genetic instruction" appear. What effect would hydrogen bonding have on such a gene? Just saying < i would like your empirical proof? I will assume you can pin point it. Or am I too just take your word for it , In good faith that is ........... Thank you, Femmefatele for the Invitation. Yw, jar...
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Post by jarhead1976 on Oct 20, 2011 11:44:04 GMT -5
Patients often accuse their psychologists of being screwed up, how many have you met ffs ? My superiority complex is not a delusion, it is simply a fact. I have superior evidence and you have a false belief. Only kidding. LOL, I never said I was a patient. I just said psycologist ive met!
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Tosh
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Philosophy is dead.
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Post by Tosh on Oct 20, 2011 11:57:26 GMT -5
I can provide you with the full neuroscience link but this extract is ok as a layman's summary.
Reward system In neuroscience, the reward system is a collection of brain structures which attempts to regulate and control behavior by inducing pleasurable effects. The neurological reward system is part of what makes reinforcement possible.
History of discovery. In a fundamental discovery made in 1954, Canadian researchers James Olds and Peter Milner found that stimulation of certain regions of the brain of the rat acted as a reward in teaching the animals to run mazes and solve problems. The conclusion from such experiments is that low-voltage electrical stimulation in certain parts of the brain gives the animals pleasure. Animals were tested in Skinner boxes where they could stimulate themselves by pressing a lever, the rats would repeatedly press the lever — even up to 2000 times per hour.[4] Research in the next two decades established that dopamine is one of the main chemicals aiding neural signaling in these regions, and dopamine was suggested to be the brain’s “pleasure chemical. Anatomy The major neurochemical pathway of the reward system in the brain involves the mesolimbic and mesocortical pathway. Of these pathways, the mesolimbic pathway plays the major role, and goes from the ventral tegmental area via the medial forebrain bundle to nucleus accumbens, which is the primary release site for the neurotransmitter dopamine. Dopamine acts on D1 or D2 receptors to either stimulate (D1) or inhibit (D2) the production of cAMP.
There are 3 main reward systems, unsurprisingly they are sex, food and nurture, one does not need a huge imagination to extrapolate their conscious adaptations and genetic traits.
We are survival machines.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 20, 2011 12:16:37 GMT -5
Speaking of sex and food... ;D
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 20, 2011 12:22:01 GMT -5
Tosh, have you heard of the "God Helmet"? Fascinating stuff. Thoughts?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 20, 2011 12:22:20 GMT -5
Jarhead, nice to see you again. How have you been?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 12:22:53 GMT -5
Sex food an nurture...in that order?
Througout recorded history human kind has always looked outward for the source of counsiousness when it is in fact within us. I find that amazing. The "gods" have been given many names and taken on many forms. Perhaps thousands of years from now scientists will be looking at Christian or Muslim writings the same way we look at Egyptian Mythology?
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 20, 2011 12:57:31 GMT -5
WOW!!
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Post by jarhead1976 on Oct 20, 2011 12:58:36 GMT -5
Respects Tosh, with a background in chemistry and biology , No need to use a layman's summary. Dopamine has the same effect on the brain if the person was using crack. I'll take the link. The crack head is trapped like the rat no reward just the need. Nurturing and co-operation are learned behavior's not genetic. Good to see you to Weltz, thank you.... Joey A , at my house its sex, then food ,nuturing is in there somwhere. Just one personal question Tosh, Can I assume your an atheist?
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Post by jarhead1976 on Oct 20, 2011 12:59:47 GMT -5
Message deleted by jarhead1976. duplicate post
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 20, 2011 13:00:02 GMT -5
Respects Tosh, with a background in chemistry and biology , No need to use a layman's summary. Dopamine has the same effect on the brain if the person was using crack. I'll take the link. The crack head is trapped like the rat no reward just the need. Nurturing and co-operation are learned behavior's not genetic. Good to see you to Weltz, thank you.... Joey A , at my house its sex, then food ,nuturing is in there somwhere. Just one personal question Tosh, Can I assume your an atheist? Ummm...Coinky dink!? ;D
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 20, 2011 13:00:34 GMT -5
Respects Tosh, with a background in chemistry and biology , No need to use a layman's summary. Dopamine has the same effect on the brain if the person was using crack. I'll take the link. The crack head is trapped like the rat no reward just the need. Nurturing and co-operation are learned behavior's not genetic. Good to see you to Weltz, thank you.... Joey A , at my house its sex, then food ,nuturing is in there somwhere. Just one personal question Tosh, Can I assume your an atheist? Yes God does exist
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Oct 20, 2011 16:00:58 GMT -5
No, I'm not saying I believe in God. Sometimes one has to argue from the standpoint that God and religion are real since that is what Christians believe - even if I do not believe it.
As for Free Will, there is no such thing in the eyes of an omniscient God. Our limited perspective gives us the illusion of Free Will. But for those who believe that we are each individually created by God, they have to acknowledge the fact that no sparrow falls without God's will (Matthew 10:29).
In other words, when God created the soul of Hitler, God knew exactly what He was doing. It wasn't as if God was shocked and surprised by Hitler's actions since a truly omniscient God would have known - would have ALWAYS known - precisely what Hitler would do.
My point in reference to Jamima's post was show that if one believes in God the Creator of All, then it has to be accepted that God also creates Evil. After all, where, precisely did Satan come from? God would not have created Evil unless it had a purpose, something I think we can both agree upon.
Now then, if God creates a person like Hitler to perform a specific purpose on earth, would it then be fair or just to punish Hitler for acting out the plan God had for Hitler in the first place?
It's akin to a programmer writing code to deliberately cause his computer to crash then getting angry and punishing his computer with a sledgehammer for misbehaving.
That really doesn't make a lot of sense, and it is one of the logical pitfalls religion always falls into when it ascribes numerous superlatives to its gods.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Oct 21, 2011 0:24:54 GMT -5
No, I'm not saying I believe in God. Sometimes one has to argue from the standpoint that God and religion are real since that is what Christians believe - even if I do not believe it. As for Free Will, there is no such thing in the eyes of an omniscient God. Our limited perspective gives us the illusion of Free Will. I disagree. Just because God is omniscient does not mean that he decides what will happen. Only, that he allows it to happen. So, therefore, there is still free will. If I know my son will do something horribly wrong, yet I allow him to do so, so that he will see the results for himself of such a bad choice; Did I still not allow him free will? Even though I may know the outcome? I still gave him the choice without interferring? But for those who believe that we are each individually created by God, they have to acknowledge the fact that no sparrow falls without God's will (Matthew 10:29). Individually? No, God made Adam and Eve. From there all mankind came to be. He did NOT create each individual seperately and put features into each one. In other words, when God created the soul of Hitler, God knew exactly what He was doing. It wasn't as if God was shocked and surprised by Hitler's actions since a truly omniscient God would have known - would have ALWAYS known - precisely what Hitler would do. See above. My point in reference to Jamima's post was show that if one believes in God the Creator of All, then it has to be accepted that God also creates Evil. After all, where, precisely did Satan come from? God would not have created Evil unless it had a purpose, something I think we can both agree upon.Evil is the word for disobeying. God did not create this. Satan did. He knew the difference and decided to do wrong. Perfection does not mean that one cannot do bad. It simply means that one can chose without mistakes. Example: you are driving your car. You would never, ever have a wreck if you were perfect and everyone else was perfect too. Simply because you would not make any mistakes. Now, if you choose to wreck. then of course you will and disaster would happen. This is what perfection means. It does not mean that one cannot do wrong. It means that one would not make mistakes as all of us imperfect humans do now. Now then, if God creates a person like Hitler to perform a specific purpose on earth, would it then be fair or just to punish Hitler for acting out the plan God had for Hitler in the first place?See above It's akin to a programmer writing code to deliberately cause his computer to crash then getting angry and punishing his computer with a sledgehammer for misbehaving. That really doesn't make a lot of sense, and it is one of the logical pitfalls religion always falls into when it ascribes numerous superlatives to its gods.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Oct 21, 2011 4:26:13 GMT -5
My main point of contention really isn't about whether God actually makes the decisions but, rather, God knowing what those decisions will be before they are ever made. Yes, you do have free will to, say, choose the blue sweater over the pink one. God is not micromanaging those decisions. Yet God knew what color you would choose. It's not as though God was thinking, "Oh damn, I really thought she was going to pick the pink sweater. Wow, did I ever miss my guess!" I have a hard time believing that one can actually fool God by acting as if you're going to do X but choosing Y at the last minute.
Thus my original question still remains: Why create a Hitler knowing what Hitler will do? There is no chance - NO chance - of Hitler instead becoming a good and wonderful person because, as God, you already know what will happen. Satan didn't create the soul of Hitler, the angels didn't, either. So unless the creation of a new soul is strictly a biological process, where else would they come from besides from God? With the example of your son below, you might know NOW that your son is about to do a horrible thing, but you didn't ALWAYS know. Therein lies the difference.
That's not quite the same thing. You can surmise that your son might do something horrible, but only based on immediate information. After all, I doubt Hitler's mother at age 10 knew she would grow up and give birth to a man who would cause 30 million deaths. Our limited perception gets in the way, which is why we're not omniscient. We can only predict the future, not KNOW the future. God, however, does.
Remember that this is all in the Bible.
For instance, Isaiah 46:9 - I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done
Psalm 139:4 - Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
Psalm 139:16 - All the days ordainded for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Then where do our souls come from? Who ... or what ... creates them?
And who created Satan? And why? Or did God really lose control of Heaven? Why create an angel that you know will rebel against you unless you meant for it to happen all along? There's that pesky omniscience again.
But if you were perfect, you wouldn't choose to have a wreck unless you wanted to, which means its all your fault. You can't choose to wreck and then blame it on your passenger Satan, which is what Christians seem to do. God isn't responsible for bad things, Satan is! Yet again, who created Satan knowing (via omniscience) what Satan would do and what chaos he would bring? Unless ... God wanted it to happen, which means God was firmly in the drivers' seat when the car went off the road.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 21, 2011 6:44:11 GMT -5
I saw Richard Dawkins take the test and nothing happened, in my opinion experiencing God requires at least a knowledge of the concept , if not a belief, maybe more to do with auto suggestion, we try and explain our feelings using familiar models.
The only thing I can relate it to in evolutionary terms is we may have a genetic predisposition to imagine unseen agents, there are obvious survival advantages to presupposing or second guessing the possible existence of hidden predators or potential threats. Hominids were not at the top of the food chain in the savanna's of Africa, there may have been a survival advantage to those with a greater ability to imagine what a shadow or shape may be.
I would like everyone to watch this clip of a female neurologist discussing her thoughts, feelings and senses when she suffered a severe stroke. I would be very interested to know how people interpret her experiences, they are truly fascinating.
Some see it as evidence of spirituality and others see it as evidence of how our brain operates, it is quite an uplifting video clip.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2011 7:32:21 GMT -5
Tosh, how is this video titled? I would like to do a direct youtube of my own.. I am assuming this is what you wanted us to view when you posted on the depression thread.. You forgot to leave us the link. I would've still asked you for the video title.. Thanks in advance for the title.
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gavinsnana
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If we forget we are One Nation Under God, then we are a Nation gone under. Ronald Reagan
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Post by gavinsnana on Oct 21, 2011 7:52:42 GMT -5
Today another "Kook" is saying today is the end of the world. Hello? Where'd everybody go?
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gavinsnana
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If we forget we are One Nation Under God, then we are a Nation gone under. Ronald Reagan
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Post by gavinsnana on Oct 21, 2011 8:02:40 GMT -5
So, the question on here is "Does God exist"? Many Proboards, of course have this topic. To me, yes God does exist. I was raised to believe in God, the Holy Mother Mary. the Son of God, Jesus.. I never felt the need to turn my back on that or question it.. IMO Science does Go hand in hand with God, God is Science, God created all things... Even though Scientist, as smart as they are, just cannot out-smart God.. even though they have been trying and think they have.. There are those who don't believe in God, which is fine... For me its about choice... we all have a choice, to believe or not... no one is holding you to it.... Enjoy life, be happy....chose to live life to the fullest.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 21, 2011 8:32:37 GMT -5
Good afternoon Jarhead, I object to you even questioning my theories, please just accept them as fact, evolutionary psychology is based on deductic logic and evidence from neuroscience. You seem to be suggesting need is learned behavior, this is quite an extraordinary claim, one I do not share. The presence and use of dopamine is evidence of a genetic reward system and your background in chemistry and biology should tell you this. Why you think crack is detrimental to my genius theory is between you and your many psychologists. Even more astonishing is your claim that nurture is a learned behavior, I can only assume we are discussing two different definitions of nurture. I am not talking about nurture in terms of environmental influences but in terms of maternal or paternal instincts. A mother is not taught to care for and defend her young, nor does she learn to empathize with their physical and emotional needs, lastly parents do not learn to love their children. The definition of life is reproduction, all living things are programmed by their DNA to reproduce, in mammals reproductive success is dependant on maternal/paternal instincts. The instinct and therefore the need to nurture is innate, it is genetic and it is essential to the survival of ones reproduced genes, mammalian infants can not survive without being nurtured. Consciousness allows us to be aware of these nurture instincts, and we call these feelings.....love, love is a reward system that we have adapted and expanded to include everything of value, its importance to our well being may appear to be purely psychological but its evolutionary origins lie in our nurture genes, in my most humble opinion. Similarly reciprocation and cooperation in social mammals can not be only a learned behavior, you are giving a great deal of sentience to some very small brains. Even if siblings are only copying their parents and peers then this copying instinct must be at the genetic level and not the conscious level. No, I am a young earth creationist, I believe the Flintstones is a documentary and every human emotion and thought is a gift from a Bronze Age supernatural entity that talks via burning bushes. ;D There are many links to sex, food and nurturing reward systems, here is but one of millions, I am surprised someone with your chemistry and biology background are unaware of them. The link I have provided ties up nicely your nonsense about crack, it explains addiction to substances that mimic our reward systems. www.thefix.com/content/addiction-gets-medical-makeover8004?page=allPeace.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 21, 2011 8:38:17 GMT -5
Just for you Heart of my heart.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 21, 2011 9:06:23 GMT -5
Is there any doubt that we have a psychological need to be nurtured, to be loved and to be protected ?
Does anyone really imagine that this need has no genetic origins ?
Why do you think gods and goddesses are models of our human parents ?
What makes some more needy than others ?
The answer as always will be a combination of ones genes and ones environment, I have given you my theory on why America is so religious in certain demographic regions and I am convinced one of the main reasons is your culture is social Darwinism.
Instead of an ever expanding circle of love for everything of value, American individualism contracts the circle of love to just them and God.
It is really a form of ego worship.
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Post by jemima on Oct 21, 2011 9:20:26 GMT -5
Predestination and free will are conflicting topics. Free will in true essence doesn't exist...not in a deterministic environment.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 21, 2011 9:51:14 GMT -5
I agree, free will does not theoretically exist in a deterministic universe and if it did, any god of a predetermined, designed and inevitable universe would be aware of all outcomes.
Religion tries to do mental somersaults to escape from the reality of God creating evil.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 21, 2011 9:58:02 GMT -5
So, the question on here is "Does God exist"? Many Proboards, of course have this topic. To me, yes God does exist. I was raised to believe in God, the Holy Mother Mary. the Son of God, Jesus.. I never felt the need to turn my back on that or question it.. IMO Science does Go hand in hand with God, God is Science, God created all things... Even though Scientist, as smart as they are, just cannot out-smart God.. even though they have been trying and think they have.. There are those who don't believe in God, which is fine... For me its about choice... we all have a choice, to believe or not... no one is holding you to it.... Enjoy life, be happy....chose to live life to the fullest. GM, Tosh.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 21, 2011 9:59:51 GMT -5
When Americans say " God bless America " like some verbal tic, do they mean God blesses all the poverty, misery, violence and inequality ?
Are the victims and losers of the American dream also blessed by God or are they exempt from this blessing ?
I am not even sure what this statement means, is it supposed to be some kind of moral justification or moral approval rating ?
I am saying to myself " God bless Scotland " to get a feel for its meaning, and it is just gobbledygook.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 21, 2011 10:04:51 GMT -5
Afternoon FF, Did you watch the clip, if not, why not ? You never thanked me for the karma you blackmailed out of me.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 21, 2011 10:05:33 GMT -5
I think we say God Bless America for several reasons. Doesn't have to be any particular reason. It is what it is "God Bless America"...Simply meaning please help us, Our Country, Health, our Troops, or Families, our Children, etc...It can mean a variety of things Tosh.
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