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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2011 10:46:49 GMT -5
We do have great Christmas dinners, Joey Apple. We have a great time anytime we're together. Life is a lot more fun, as I see it, when you're not busy questioning someone else's beliefs. Snerdley, Welts isn't "getting" anywhere. She's simply bringing research to our attention, and it's very interesting. I'd love to see the documentary series. For that, I'd consider turning on the television. ;D I wasn't implying that your Christmas dinners would be full of food fights. I simply meant as a person not involved in the many rituals often performed at Christmas it makes for interesting non conversations. If you know what I mean. Your point about questioning someone else's beliefs is interesting in itself. The many bibles that exist do have some historical merit and fact, to not question or be able to discuss these events without being accused of trying to take away a persons belief system is quite a roadblock to free flowing conversation and discussion.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2011 10:56:27 GMT -5
I didn't think you were implying anything negative, Joey. I took your post at face value, as I do most peoples' posts. We don't have a lot of rituals, per se, but we do have certain traditions; mostly, in the foods we serve. There are also a couple of boxes that get passed from person to person over the years. One of them we've been using for nearly 15 years now. It's a little care-worn, but it hasn't fallen apart yet. ;D I agree that open discussion is the most interesting and valuable tool we have at hand, Joey Apple. The point of discussion, as I see it, shouldn't be to change another's mind (or beliefs), but to learn things from others. There's much to be said for learning just for the sake of the exercise.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 15, 2011 11:42:15 GMT -5
Um...OK. You are really getting out there now. --------------------- Not any more "out there" than talking donkeys, people turning into pillars of salt and wormwood boats holding millions of animals. Oh, and humans coexisting with dinosaurs. Right. I'M the one that's "out there."
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Oct 15, 2011 15:13:00 GMT -5
My family used to be very religious and ultra-conservative in their moral beliefs. The one thing I'm grateful for is that they never expected or demanded that I follow them. I was allowed to follow my own path, and while that did lead to some friction, I was never punished or prohibited from doing something based on religious or conservative-morality reasons.
Even so, for a time, I felt there might be a God, but I never adopted a religion. God was just ... God. I never associated God with Christianity or Islam or Judaism, etc. I would pray, I would at least attempt to believe, and I tried to be a good and decent person, someone God would be proud of. And I don't mean that artificial morality involving things like how short my skirts are, drinking at a party, or listening to that "Satanic" rock 'n roll. I mean REAL morality that truly makes a difference in the world - or at least my small place in it.
Then I found my passion for history, especially the WWII years. Anyone who can study this period as I have and not doubt God's existence - or at least ask and demand pertinent answers - needs a wake-up call. There is nothing like the Holocaust to give any rational person a moment of pause when considering a fair, just, and loving God. This era gave many a reason to doubt, and reading the diaries of victims or seeing interviews with survivors, they all ask the same question: Where was God?
Yeah ... where?
And any belief I once had evaporated like a pot of boiling water.
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Post by jemima on Oct 15, 2011 15:40:27 GMT -5
So why should God have one wife then...why not marry Mary after all she provided Him a heir?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2011 15:46:39 GMT -5
Mary was Joseph's wife, Jemima.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2011 22:23:25 GMT -5
My family used to be very religious and ultra-conservative in their moral beliefs. The one thing I'm grateful for is that they never expected or demanded that I follow them. I was allowed to follow my own path, and while that did lead to some friction, I was never punished or prohibited from doing something based on religious or conservative-morality reasons. Even so, for a time, I felt there might be a God, but I never adopted a religion. God was just ... God. I never associated God with Christianity or Islam or Judaism, etc. I would pray, I would at least attempt to believe, and I tried to be a good and decent person, someone God would be proud of. And I don't mean that artificial morality involving things like how short my skirts are, drinking at a party, or listening to that "Satanic" rock 'n roll. I mean REAL morality that truly makes a difference in the world - or at least my small place in it. Then I found my passion for history, especially the WWII years. Anyone who can study this period as I have and not doubt God's existence - or at least ask and demand pertinent answers - needs a wake-up call. There is nothing like the Holocaust to give any rational person a moment of pause when considering a fair, just, and loving God. This era gave many a reason to doubt, and reading the diaries of victims or seeing interviews with survivors, they all ask the same question: Where was God? Yeah ... where? And any belief I once had evaporated like a pot of boiling water. Two things happened today that made me reflect on this post you made. 1. I went to a movie preview called The Three Musketeers. The movie was great for kids, 3d..ughh! It had the historical fact of the Catholic church being so wealthy, with wealth brings power, with power brings greed. That, to me is the downfall of religion. Does the Catholic church need to have the richest (non tax paying) city in the world? I think not....too much money. People that wish to worship their god should not have to pay for it. 2. My daughter was watching a documentary this evening on the holocaust. It was a love story of sorts, a story of two survivors that married after they survived the camps. The man was shown present day praying in a synagogue. He looked into the camera and said, (paraphrased)..."I have a hard time praying, I think of the god that let so many die, and I think of the god that let me live."
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Oct 16, 2011 12:44:57 GMT -5
To me, words like that are far more powerful than the empty words of promise one receives from the Bible.
I remember hearing an interview from a nurse who helped the Holocaust survivors at one of the camps after it was liberated. I remember her saying in a tearful voice, "Where was God in all of this? Even now I wonder why He didn't hear their cries."
But even the war itself took its toll. Another interview by a Sherman tank commander during the Normandy break-out said that after seeing the carnage, he began to doubt his faith.
I believe that the horrors of WWII is a big reason why Europe is so secular today compared to the US. We, as a society, never had to face the terror and carnage of that war on the streets of our cities. We can't even begin to truly understand what it was like for them.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 13:06:27 GMT -5
OUCH!! And how sad to Me that is.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 13:14:38 GMT -5
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 13:20:55 GMT -5
I am still having technical problems, please bear with me.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 13:24:49 GMT -5
I am still having technical problems, please bear with me. Get It Together Toshypoo! ;D
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 14:02:13 GMT -5
Evening Captain, apologies for the delayed response,
Thank you.
Not in the slightest, in order for me to allow for some force outside of science to be the source of consciousness, there would have to be some evidence or reason to presuppose a flaw in our knowledge and the existence of another source. The source of our consciousness can be studied in other social mammals and especially in primates but not in fish, birds, reptiles and insects. This suggests not every living organism is blessed with degrees of consciousness, which presupposes the source lies in evolution by natural selection. There is neurological and biological evidence that confirms our consciousness is an emergent property of the mammalian brain, if the brain is damaged then so is our consciousness.
One would have to view consciousness as an external phenomena, unreliant on a physical brain, one that is non-physical and immaterial, and all the evidence contradicts this notion.
You are getting warmer, I believe our consciousness is driven by goodness for evolutionary reasons, some wish to call these reasons God.
Peace.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 14:39:20 GMT -5
i
Hello Ktunes,
This is called the god of the gaps argument, and it has been proven over the millenia to be a very very poor argument. If you wish to inject god into every gap in our knowledge then God is really the personification of ignorance.
The laws of physics came from humans, they are our observations of relationships between measurable quantities, they do not exist as an entity outside our observations, e.g. out-with space time. The laws of physics did not create the universe, the universe was created in accordance with these observable laws.
The matter may have come from another universe, we do not know yet but any hypothesis is more valid than a bronze age myth.
Life on earth may have come from other life in the universe, but at some point life had to begin, injecting god into this physical process is really not an answer, did it just imagine life out of fresh air ?
Think what this statement really is saying, design is a human perception and a human concept, you are suggesting the universe in all its vastness was designed for us !! The universe does not scream design, the only microbiologists who scream design are religious adherents of intelligent design. Are you suggesting Downs syndrome is designed or minus 600 c is the ambient temp for humans to live in space without oxygen ??
Death denial is a common psychological condition, one shared by our neolithic ancestors.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 14:44:12 GMT -5
So, now You're calling God ignorant. Nice.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 14:47:27 GMT -5
Hi Snicks, hope you are well.
I must remind you yet again, Orthodox Christianity is not an authority on the Jewish scriptures, how you wish to interpret them is not really relevant to the people who wrote them or the facts.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 14:51:36 GMT -5
Good evening dearest of the dearest,
Nope and I would not dream of doing so since I do not believe god exists, it is people who continually plug god into the gaps in our knowledge who are labeling him as such.
All the main faiths stay well clear of this argument, history has taught them a lesson.
How are you kiddo ? Hope your life is sliding upwards.
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 14:55:05 GMT -5
Good evening dearest of the dearest, Nope and I would not dream of doing so since I do not believe god exists, it is people who continually plug god into the gaps in our knowledge who are labeling him as such. All the main faiths stay well clear of this argument, history has taught them a lesson. How are you kiddo ? Hope your life is sliding upwards. Thanks Tosh I'm doing better day by day. How are You?
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 14:57:47 GMT -5
God designed the earth to be bombarded by meteors because he did not like dinosaurs, seemingly ??
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 14:58:52 GMT -5
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 15:04:27 GMT -5
I am a computer genius and I think I have solved the problem.....I think. Life is pretty cool, I have my hands full with my 34 year old wife and 2 kids under 5......lol. No rest for the wicked.
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tom
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Post by tom on Oct 16, 2011 15:08:26 GMT -5
One needs to simply compare the size of the universe to a solitary human life. If God is the Universe, then humans are considerably smaller than neutrinos. Earth is then much smaller than the size of an atom compared to infinity.
I really don't know what makes humans think they are special in the great scheme of things.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2011 15:13:50 GMT -5
One needs to compare the size of the universe to a solitary human life. If God is the Universe, then humans are neutrinos. Earth is then the size of an atom compared to infinity. I really don't know what makes humans think they are special in the great scheme of things. Oh but we are special, each and every one of us. I love to sail, and often when out on the beautiful Pacific ocean I ponder the magnificence of this world, this universe we live in. I can't claim to know how it was all created but I certainly can claim to be awestruck but it and also by how minute we humans are in the grand scheme of things perhaps.
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tom
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Post by tom on Oct 16, 2011 15:24:43 GMT -5
Maybe to our parents and friends (if your lucky) After that, our presence here on earth is of a very inconsequential importance.
Yup, i do the same.
I don't assume any creator though.
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tom
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Post by tom on Oct 16, 2011 16:06:20 GMT -5
Can you imagine infinity ?
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 16:17:24 GMT -5
LOL Fritz! ;D
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 16:17:46 GMT -5
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 16, 2011 16:18:05 GMT -5
I needed a good laugh.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 16, 2011 17:06:45 GMT -5
to me, and this is mho, there are other proofs...the world and universe we live in scream design... -------------------------- It screams design because this is the world you're used to and are familiar with. If things had gone just a bit differently eons ago, this world might be one that is covered in ammonia. Would that scream design to you, as well?
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 16, 2011 17:30:45 GMT -5
Its like a rich person living in a rich environment denying there is poverty, we are the winners, 99 % of all life that has ever existed is now extinct , this demonstrates evolution does not operate with any foresight, looking back in hindsight is not evidence of foresight.
We are one of the few winners in the cosmic lottery, we should thank our lucky stars , consciousness was no free gift, we suffered millions of years of tooth and claw evolution to get where we are today.
You bet your ass we are special, we create our own purpose and significance, that gives our lives value and meaning.
We may have some genetic flaws but we are slowly learning to civilize the animal instincts in us all, morality is heavily influenced by environment, creating a moral environment is a worthwhile snowball to start rolling.
Genes are not the only things that evolve, human memes improve incrementally our ethical standards, we discard the poor ideas over time.
Building ones life around a bad idea can not be a good idea.
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