Tosh
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Philosophy is dead.
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Post by Tosh on Oct 13, 2011 9:41:02 GMT -5
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 13, 2011 9:45:04 GMT -5
Did You rest well?
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Tosh
Senior Member
Philosophy is dead.
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Post by Tosh on Oct 13, 2011 9:57:14 GMT -5
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Tosh
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Philosophy is dead.
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Post by Tosh on Oct 13, 2011 9:58:31 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 10:53:19 GMT -5
Excellent. Does God exist? By acknowledging that consciousness exists and that your consciousness can choose to pursue scientific method and reason, you allow for some force outside of science to be the source of your consciousness. Some consciousnesses may presume that the source of consciousness is the sum of all consciousness, this sum being God. Alternately, a consciousness may presume that it is the source and sum of all consciousness, that sum being without a God.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 10:59:27 GMT -5
Why is it a secret ? If you could see ghosts would you shout it from the rooftops? He is a ghost.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 11:02:43 GMT -5
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 13, 2011 12:34:48 GMT -5
Tosh? Why so quiet today?
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Oct 13, 2011 14:15:22 GMT -5
Here's a question aimed at anyone who "believes."
Proving or assuming a Creator exists does not prove the truthfulness of your religion - and that's what happens often in these debates. There is a massive leap from A to C when one assumes that, since there is a Creator, it MUST be the Creator that I was raised to believe in.
We can discuss why there is a Creator all day, and both sides make valid points. But it all falls apart when people begin laying claim to that Creator through religious dogma. To say that the Creator is MY "God" as told by MY culture (and not yours), is an expression of hubris, for proving a Creator is only one step toward proving anything in the Bible is true. Or the Quran. Or the Torah. Or even the Egyptian Book of the Dead, for that matter.
This is why I hope in the strongest sense that a Creator is never scientifically proven to exist. Every religion in the world will try to lay claim to it as the ultimate proof of why their dogmas are true and why EVERYONE should follow them.
The existence of a Creator proves the Bible true! No, it proves the Quran! No, it proves the Torah! No, it proves Smith's golden tablets! No, it proves the Vedas! No, it proves Jim Jones' doomsday cult! It will be like watching a thousand obsessed women fighting over a man, only they'll do it with armies, missiles, and nuclear weapons.
Meanwhile, the Creator could be Quetzalcoatl for all anyone knows.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2011 14:45:35 GMT -5
Frankly, I see religion as rather esoteric. For those who believe, the answers are clear and the proof lies in their faith. It works for them, and they find peace in their beliefs. Atheism, too, is esoteric in its way. Those who do not believe in an all-knowing God feel solid in the teachings of science, rather than in those of the bible. I see no problem with that dichotomy. What I wonder is why each group feels it's necessary to contradict the beliefs (or, lack of same) of the other group. What another believes has no impact on my life, unless I allow it to do so.
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Tosh
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Philosophy is dead.
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Post by Tosh on Oct 14, 2011 6:24:53 GMT -5
My laptop is behaving oddly, I believe supernatural forces to be at work. If I disappear again, please do not worry I am not dead.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 14, 2011 6:29:34 GMT -5
Deus ex machina, Tosh? ;D
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Oct 14, 2011 6:57:58 GMT -5
Okie Dokie,
Hopefully the gremlins are gone for good.
I believe a scientific theory to be one of the highest levels of probability, no scientific theory contradicts science law, all theories and laws contradict metaphysical hypotheses, all metaphysical hypotheses are unsupported by evidence and reason.
I disagree my friend, and you continue to interpret the gaps in the fossil record as evidence of stasis and sudden appearance, my pet name for this is the straw man argument since neither interpretations of the fossil record dispute evolution.
Your test seems to lack any impartiality since the physical claims in the book are totally unsupported by any evidence, I suggest this is empirical evidence of its inaccuracy even in layman's terms.
I am surprised you agree that any flaws will not destroy the fundamentals of science since all explanations dispute a directed and predetermined universe. Science does not consider gods presence necessary nor proven. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 9:10:43 GMT -5
Deus ex machina, Tosh? ;D ;D
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 14, 2011 15:00:03 GMT -5
Oh my! Looks like god had a wife. I wonder if he ever forgot their anniversary. Where would he go to buy presents? God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshiped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar. In 1967, Raphael Patai was the first historian to mention that the ancient Israelites worshiped both Yahweh and Asherah. The theory has gained new prominence due to the research of Francesca Stavrakopoulou, who began her work at Oxford and is now a senior lecturer in the department of Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter. Information presented in Stavrakopoulou's books, lectures and journal papers has become the basis of a three-part documentary series, now airing in Europe, where she discusses the Yahweh-Asherah connection. news.discovery.com/history/god-wife-yahweh-asherah-110318.html
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 14, 2011 15:06:32 GMT -5
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Post by femmefatale on Oct 14, 2011 15:14:48 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 14, 2011 17:06:54 GMT -5
I got them all right, as well, welts. What gave me a bit of a chuckle was the evidence that Jewish folk and atheists/agnostics are more likely to know the answers to those questions than are those to whom the Christian religion is an important part of their lives.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 17:13:42 GMT -5
I got them all right, as well, welts. What gave me a bit of a chuckle was the evidence that Jewish folk and atheists/agnostics are more likely to know the answers to those questions than are those to whom the Christian religion is an important part of their lives. I got two wrong. I get what you are saying, it makes sense that people who question religion are more like to be people that like to aquire knowledge first hand possibly on many different topics. Some people like to learn, others believe it is what it is, because I said so. It makes for an easier life I am sure.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 14, 2011 17:35:43 GMT -5
Some people like to learn, others believe it is what it is, because I said so. It makes for an easier life I am sure. ----------------------- Lol! Exactly! I was brought up in a very religious home. I started asking questions when I was about 12. We had some of the biggest fights because of my inquisitive nature, which resulted in my sobbing in frustration and my mother screaming "Because I said so! Because that's just the way it is! Because it's in the bible, that's why!" Wanting answers for myself, I set out on spiritual quests, culminating in bible studies and religious retreats. You know what the answers were? "Because it's in the bible, that's why!" Sorry, not good enough. It drove me not into the arms of Baby Jesus, but into the warm embrace of atheism. Thanks, Mom!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 17:47:41 GMT -5
Some people like to learn, others believe it is what it is, because I said so. It makes for an easier life I am sure. ----------------------- Lol! Exactly! I was brought up in a very religious home. I started asking questions when I was about 12. We had some of the biggest fights because of my inquisitive nature, which resulted in my sobbing in frustration and my mother screaming "Because I said so! Because that's just the way it is! Because it's in the bible, that's why!" Wanting answers for myself, I set out on spiritual quests, culminating in bible studies and religious retreats. You know what the answers were? "Because it's in the bible, that's why!" Sorry, not good enough. It drove me not into the arms of Baby Jesus, but into the warm embrace of atheism. Thanks, Mom! I had a similar experience. I did try as an adult to go back to the church, I wanted my children to have some knowledge of religion and not to dismiss it. It lasted a few years, I'm just not sheeple material. I find some religions to be quite fascinating and interesting, just not well..... believable.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 14, 2011 17:58:23 GMT -5
My family is split. Most of the older folk are dead, my mother and my father's sister being the only ones left of that generation. My brother and I are atheists, as is my mother. My son, his wife, my father's sister (her daughter is a minister) and my son-in-law are devout Christians. My daughter is agnostic and keeps her dear mouth shut.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 18:01:11 GMT -5
My family is split. Most of the older folk are dead, my mother and my father's sister being the only ones left of that generation. My brother and I are atheists, as is my mother. My son, his wife, my father's sister (her daughter is a minister) and my son-in-law are devout Christians. My daughter is agnostic and keeps her dear mouth shut. You must have the best Christmas dinners.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2011 7:23:53 GMT -5
We do have great Christmas dinners, Joey Apple. We have a great time anytime we're together. Life is a lot more fun, as I see it, when you're not busy questioning someone else's beliefs. Snerdley, Welts isn't "getting" anywhere. She's simply bringing research to our attention, and it's very interesting. I'd love to see the documentary series. For that, I'd consider turning on the television. ;D
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2011 7:46:11 GMT -5
How is who "making a leap", Snerdley? Some research was brought to our attention. Does interest in research equate to "making a leap" in your mind? Nobody here has said whether they agree with the research, or don't agree. All I said was ... it's interesting.
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Post by jemima on Oct 15, 2011 7:54:04 GMT -5
Yet, Jesus is not Asherah's son.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2011 8:15:09 GMT -5
The taking of multiple wives was not unusual in those days, Jemima. Perhaps, Asherah was barren. Who knows, really? It's interesting to read different points of view, and see evidence presented in different ways. Gives us grist for the brain to grind.
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Post by jemima on Oct 15, 2011 9:03:16 GMT -5
The taking of multiple wives was not unusual in those days, Jemima. Perhaps, Asherah was barren. Who knows, really? It's interesting to read different points of view, and see evidence presented in different ways. Gives us grist for the brain to grind. It makes no sense mmhmm. If God has a wife, why make her a barren? If Asherah was the wife, then what was Mary to God?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2011 9:29:13 GMT -5
No clue, Jemima. Many things from the bible make no sense in our day and time. We're too far removed to be able to fathom all that was true in those days. As to why God might choose to make his wife barren, why does God allow innocent babies and children to die? We don't have those answers; nor, do we know what Mary was to God. We don't know why Mary was chosen even if we don't consider Asherah. Mary certainly wasn't the only virgin around, I hope!
We have more questions than answers, as usual. That's why different points of view and research are so interesting to me.
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Post by frankq on Oct 15, 2011 10:01:26 GMT -5
Interesting question. Does God exist. You'd like to think so. As a Catholic, I went to church when I was a kid. I was told God watched us. But as an adult, I have to look at history and current events related to the Catholic church. For centuries, the path to popehood was one of assasination. In recent times, molestation of children by priests is relatively widespread. I recall Cardinal Bernadine in Chicago went to extra ordinary measures to secure the most sophisticated medical treatment for his terminal cancer. Why? If he truely believed that he was on his way to Heaven, why put it off for as long as possible? It begs the question: If these guys really believed in God in the past, and continue to believe today, why would they continue to exhibit such behavior?
Does God exist? I don't know. When you look at the progression of life on this planet and the fact that humans actually exist, you have to wonder. On the other hand, when you look at the situation in the world, well, you have to wonder.... If God exists, I hope he (she) has more to occupy him/herself with than just sitting around and watching us all day, everyday....
Just as we sometimes look around and take stock of our lives after hard days, weeks, years of toil and ask "is this all there is?", I sometimes wonder if God asks himself the same question....
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