If an American soldier dies overseas

[Bluerobin]

Crafty, my words should come across exactly as written. If you choose to assign other meanings, it is up to you. Do I believe soldiers are stupid? Yes, some. Do I believe soldiers are smart? Yes, some.

Horatio, I have come to the same conclusion. See you in the other threads.

[Bluerobin]

Rick, I am not a bitter old man. I felt this way as a young man too. I am someone who doesn't have his head up his butt and doesn't see the great threat everywhere. In my era, it was the great Communist threat. Today, a different one. Still a manufactured crisis by those in power. We have no business in police actions. We have no business in Iraq or Afghanistan, or Libya, etc.
I really don't think it we should ask our young to fight wars so Mr.X or his industry can make a buck. All of the recent wars have been unjust, and benefit only the few. Until we get less corrupt leaders that will not change.
ETA: The WMD were used against the Kurds. Our intelligence screwed up on that one.

[Deleted]

He or she did not die fighting for America's right to be free or protecting freedom of speech here or anything like that.

They would die protecting our national interests. One could say that taking Saddam out stopped him from disrupting our oil supply which WOULD have created more havoc than what we are seeing now.

Either way though the President & Congress set what interests that the military should be protecting or used for. The military is just tasked with doing whatever the objective is & accomplishing it.

Oh & very often (both here & overseas) military members die in other ways than combat related. It's actually almost as dangerous practicing for combat as being in combat. Not counting all the other things that are rolled up into the jobs of the military (like working long hours & then driving).

[Bluerobin]

They would die protecting our national interests. One could say that taking Saddam out stopped him from disrupting our oil supply which WOULD have created more havoc than what we are seeing now.



Which he did anyhow! Remember burning oil fields? I still feel we have no national interests outside our borders. We have some of the largest oil and gas reserves in the world. The only big business man, Boone Pickens, who has suggested using natural gas in vehicles has been largely ignored. Why, because other businesses make so much on the military.

[Deleted]

Boone Pickens, who has suggested using natural gas in vehicles has been largely ignored. Why, because other businesses make so much on the military.

Actually I think it has more to do with the fact that natural gas is both explosive & a gas (vapor). In a car wreck there would be a much higher probability that there would be an explosion. Of course the fuller the tank. the bigger the explosion. My guess is that car makers have it in their mind & would presume that one explosion (God forbid if someone filmed it) would pretty much kill the market for a natural gas auto. Much like helium was used in blimps up until th Hindenburg exploded. That one accident killed blimp usage for every (compared to what it had been & could have been). Besides the bottle holding the gas would have to be reinforced & would require a lot of extra weight. That would lower millage.

[oftenwrong]

Aug 21, 2011 13:28:09 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

No one here has argued that we are fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan to make America safe. I see no politician making that argument. We are in Iraq, I dot know why, to spread democracy, for oil, I don't know, but I don't see any way it protects our freedom. Canyou point me to an article that makes that point effectively?

In what way has Libya threatened our freedoms? Now that most of al queda is in Yemen or Pakistan or whereever what is the reson our freedoms are in jeopardy from afghanis?

Those would be good questions to ask your elected officials, because they are the ones who made the call. With the exception of Libya of course...which was a unilateral decision made by the president. They feel it is in our best interests for some reason though. Folks have stated numerous times that not everything our military does is about "protecting our freedoms" - at least not directly.

QUOTE ....ask your elected officials, because they are the ones who made the call.

That seems to be stating the obvious. Officials are elected to make decisions on behalf of every voter. One day it may be possible to seek the instantaneous views of 300 million people, but we're not there yet.

[Deleted]

Someone pointed out that even those that went to serve in Afghanistan did not think they should be there. And it takes people like Blue and Horatio saying that, and others joining them, to get your soldiers out of there. To say that it is your elected officials that decided this is hilarious to me when it comes to American politics. Your elections are won by 2 or 3% which means about half of your population disagrees with your elected officials at any given time.

Personally I think anyone that choses active military duty as a career is nuts. History is full of evidence of the military being used to promote personal agendas. I don't wish any harm to anyone, but they are nuts.

[Deleted]

I think you made a very valid point that those that agree with the wars use the soldiers as a shield to divert the real discussion. The question is not what you think of the character of those that go into military service. The question is "are they dying to protect America, mom and apple pie". Military families should not get mad at those that ask the question. They should appreciate that someone takes their lives that seriously that they don't want them to be used as pawns to promote personal agendas.

[Deleted]

Aug 21, 2011 9:47:02 GMT -5 @horatiolegrand said:

I am starting to think that your argument is dishonest. You are holding up soldiers to defend war.

Actually, I oppose the war in Iraq and believe it is time to get out of Afghanistan. But that is beside the point.

After Vietnam, our soldiers were mistreated when they came home. As a society we blamed them for a war we didn't agree with even though (for the most part) they were drafted and didn't volunteer.

We learned a lesson from that experience. Now, I think everyone is very quick to point out that we support the troops whether or not we support the war. I agree with that sentiment to a degree.

These are brave men and women who are serving (note I didn't say defending) our country. They deserve our respect for the sacrifices that they and their families make. But they also don't deserve blanket amnesty. I don't think they are government pawns, I think they volunteered for this work. To me that suggests they either agree with the goals of our mission or don't disagree strongly enough to choose another line of work.

I don't believe a single person on this thread wishes harm to anyone in the service. But I don't think they should be beatified just because they are in the service. Molly's wonderful DH would be wonderful if he were a plumber. Zib's daughter would be a strong-willed, admirable person if she were a fire fighter. Although I don't know them, I believe that they are both intelligent enough to have made their own life choices.

In many respects, I disagree with those choices. But at this point, the cards are dealt. We are in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other lesson we need to learn from Vietnam is how to get out.

There a lot of people on these boards who will tell you not to take out student loans for a low-paying career. Too late. I already did. So now I need to get my butt over to WIRR and do everything I can to pay them off.

It is the same futile argument with the wars. We can argue all day whether or not we should have started them. But the point is that we are there. So we need to find a way to draw down our troops in the best way possible.

[Deleted]

And seriously, if you want to be an isolationist, great. You may want to consider moving to Switzerland.

But for my money, sometimes our interests do need defending overseas. I don't want think we should always be waiting until someone brings the fight to us. (Although, technically attacking U.S. embassies overseas and the U.S.S. Cole etc. does constitute an attack on American soil)

And it terrifies me to think that there are people who really believe we shouldn't have been in the European theater in WWII. There are no good wars. But there are just wars, and that was definitely one of them.

[Mad Dawg Wiccan]

And it terrifies me to think that there are people who really believe we shouldn't have been in the European theater in WWII.

Just point out to them that we (the US) did not declare war on Germany, they declared was on us.

[Deleted]

I'm aware of the history, but it doesn't change the fact that once you have a struggling group of people line up between a nationalistic wackadoo, you have to go fight WWII.

[Deleted]

That's the same misguided argument as saying we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. It's too late. We're there now.

Did the U.S. screw some stuff up along the way? Sure. Are we blameless in history? No. Could WWII have been prevented? Maybe. But once you have a Hitler in power, we need to do something. I'm using the royal "we" here. You, me, the United States, the United Nations, humanity - yes, I believe that the good guys of the world have an obligation to step in.

We haven't always been the good guys, mind you. Someone probably should have stepped in to stop us from the atrocities committed against Native Americans in this country.

But Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Milosevic, bin Laden, and the other bad guys of the world need to be stopped.

Before WWI, we should have helped the Armenians. And we should be ashamed that it took us more than 90 years to admit that a genocide had even occurred.

Today, yes, I think we should be helping people in the Sudan.

These aren't all "declare war" scenarios. But they are "get up off the sidelines and do something" scenarios.

[Deleted]

No, likening anything that is wrong in today's society with Hitler and calling anyone we don't agree with "Nazis" is a tired metaphor. Talking about Hitler in the context of WWII is pretty much exactly where we are supposed to talk about him.

If you want to talk about the consequences of WWII, I have Jewish friends. That is a consequence. It is not the only consequence, but it is a pretty important one.

You and I are in agreement that we should leave Iraq and Afghanistan. (That may be the only place we agree) But your previous posts emphasize what a delicate matter that is. We don't want to be an occupying force forever and we also don't want to leave things in such disarray that things get worse for the people of those countries as soon as we are out the door.

I'm not a military strategist so I don't know the best course of action. But I'm pretty sure loading everybody up on a boat tomorrow is a bad idea.

[Genuine GA Peach]

Horatio - are you familiar with Tom Deierlein? www.tdfoundation.org/faf/home/default.asp?ievent=234836

[Bluerobin]

Horatio and Later, thanks for the support. You both came close to my opinions.
Rachets and Crafty, I said they were duped into joining the service, for "God and country". Not that they were dupes or dopes. Would you prefer if I say "bullshitted" into joining? I am done arguing over words.
You hawks are a bit like Nazis, with your taste for war mongering. Bottom line, is we do not belong fighting wars for other countries, especially when those countries are not close allies.
Next thing, the hawks will be on the ground in Libya, keeping the peace and nation building - again, a place we do not belong. Obama should be impeached for his actions there. Undeclared war and all, and clear violation of the war powers act.
Oldtex, natural gas is not much more dangerous than gasoline. Having had innumerable training classes on crashes, gasoline and natural gas, I would take the chance and use it in my car. NG will dissapate in the air, while gasoline will spread across the ground and start to vaporize - which makes it dangerous.

[Deleted]

I can see that arguing the implications of word choice is a waste of time with someone who says I am a bit like a Nazi. I think it is time for this thread to fall off the page.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Personally I think anyone that choses active military duty as a career is nuts. History is full of evidence of the military being used to promote personal agendas. I don't wish any harm to anyone, but they are nuts.

Yes and no. History is definitely full of examples of the military being used to promote personal agendas. However, soldiers are also the first people paid, housed, and fed. No ruler wants a bunch of well trained, well armed, pissed off, starving, soldiers guarding him while he sleeps or responsible for keeping his regime in power. So, as a career choice it's not bad. Career stability, OK pay, good benefits, you can do a lot worse.

The downside of course is risking your life, and having to kill random people in the world that your government doesn't like.

By the way, I think that's why people using the word duped riled feathers earlier. I served from Jan 01 to Jan 07. So we were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for most of the time I was in. I was directly supporting those missions. I was also firmly against both those wars. I wasn't duped. I didn't buy some big lie. I was doing my job. I've got nothing against the people of Iraq or Afghanistan, but my commander and chief decided to overthrow their governments and I didn't fancy serving the remainder of my enlistment in a federal prison, so I did what I was told. I served with plenty of folks that felt the exact same way.

[Deleted]

I was also firmly against both those wars. I wasn't duped. I didn't buy some big lie. I was doing my job.

That is what I have a hard time getting my head around. The "killing or helping to kill people is just my job" mentality.

[Sum Dum Gai]

The "killing or helping to kill people is just my job" mentality.

It's easier if you don't think about it too much. Besides, I was a computer tech. I maintained computer systems for intelligence units. They used those to make targeting decisions, attack plans, etc. I never had to actually see anyone die.

The guys on the ground kicking in doors and getting in firefights in downtown Fallujah probably view the whole thing completely differently.

One last point. While I don't necessarily see why it was out job to overthrow Saddam, the guy and his regime did in my book deserve what they got. I'm not against that war on the grounds that Saddam was a peaceful loving dictator that we unfairly targeted. The guy was a mass murderer, and I sure as hell don't plan on losing any sleep over his demise. The same can be said for the Taliban in Afghanistan. These aren't peaceful people that we target just because we pulled their name out of a hat or something.

[Deleted]

The guys on the ground kicking in doors and getting in firefights in downtown Fallujah probably view the whole thing completely differently.

I bet. How many do you think believe they are on the side of the angels and how many just like to blow things up?

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

Aug 22, 2011 6:17:29 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

You hawks are a bit like Nazis, with your taste for war mongering.

Bluerobin:

Do not call people who disagree with you Nazi warmongers. Personal attacks, insults, name-calling and baiting are against our Code of Conduct.

MOLLY

[zibazinski]

Like I have said before, I WISH DD would choose another path but brainwashed she was not. For some reason that only she knows and is unable to articulate to me so that I can understand, she feels "called" to this lifestyle. No recruiters came near her in HS. I specifically denied permission for them to contact her or DS in ANY way. This is a choice she made, totally on her own. Yes, my Dad served in WW2 but he was dead long before she was born so except for a picture and some medals, that's her only military "link." I don't agree with us in Afghanistan at all and even Iraq makes me ill. Those "people" like killing each other. If they would just stick to killing each other, I'd let them be but they also like killing people that want to just be left alone. Do I agree with being the WORLD'S POLICE? Hell no, but until we can get a president that cares about America and Americans, it is what it is. Trust me, most of DD's buddies puke at the idea of swearing to "Obama" as Commander in Chief, so you can serve your country without agreeing with it's policies or it's so-called leader.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I bet. How many do you think believe they are on the side of the angels and how many just like to blow things up?

I would bet that the vast majority are there for reasons completely unrelated. Being a poor kid from a small town it can look like there aren't many options to get out. Everyone knows the military will pay you, give you training, and give you money for school though. I would say that the vast majority of people I served with were almost completely apolitical. I remember having a discussion about the electoral college in ALS (leadership training for airmen about to become non commissioned officers), there were about 15 students in the room and only 2 of us knew what the electoral college was. These weren't the type of people who spend a lot of time thinking about foreign policy, politics, etc. It was a job, a way out, a stepping stone, not a cause or a passion. For most people.

[april47]

I agree with Dark. Most of those kids that join aren't joining because of some idealistic vision of saving their beloved country. This isn't 1776. They want the benefits and the way of life and some don't have a whole lot of choices. Many of the soldiers who have been in awhile are counting the time till they can retire with benefits. The ones I know personally are definately not all worked up about saving freedom in America and it was not presented to them as that by recruiters either.

[Deleted]

This message has been deleted.

[Deleted]

Well if military folks see it as their job whether or not they agree with whichever war they are sent to, being duped or not is a non issue.

[TD2K]

How many do you think believe they are on the side of the angels and how many just like to blow things up?



Kill them all, God will know his own.

[Bluerobin]

Well if military folks see it as their job whether or not they agree with whichever war they are sent to, being duped or not is a non issue.

Didn't many military folks stand trial for war crimes after WWII, even though they claimed they were only doing their jobs?

[pig]

Having been in the military I can safely say that the vast majority of servicemen did not join because they wanted to "protect" their country so that's a non issue. Once you're in, your personal opinion matters not. When you're facing a force whose sole intent is to kill you, you're most certainly not having philosophical thoughts on what's right and wrong (unless there's extenuating circumstances) but trying to survive.

What most people overlook is that war is almost never "justified" yet there are reasons you may not know as to why they are fought. Our world would have a distinctly different outcome if it weren't for our "unjustified" wars. Think of the American-Indian wars, our puppet governments in central and south America and the Spanish - American war, the Mexican - American war etc.........you might not be living such a good life without those "unjustified" wars. All them were fought for a reason though were they justifiable?