Loosing custody over an obese child

[muttleynfelix]

I am guessing that a 90 pound 3 year old doesn't walk a whole lot. THat the parents have found a BIG stroller and use that a lot, but I really don't know.

Angel - I did the pick up with arm move on DS at Walgreen's last weekend and we were at the prescription checkout the tech asked how he could help and said I want a baby? He said no I'm trying to cut back.

[Angel!]

Jul 14, 2011 10:50:37 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

I am guessing that a 90 pound 3 year old doesn't walk a whole lot. THat the parents have found a BIG stroller and use that a lot, but I really don't know.

Good point. Maybe they also never take him anywhere. Also, maybe they make him behave with the offer of candy & junk food - perhaps that is how he got to be 90 lbs.

Glad I'm not the only one who does the 1-arm pickup. I am also becoming more convinced that the terrible 2s are just a rumor & the real trouble starts closer to 3. He never used to have tantrums, at most he would occassionally cry softly & melt into a ball on the floor. Suddenly he has begun having screaming fits that leave him struggling to even breath because he is so hysterical. Hope this phase doesn't last.

[muttleynfelix]

The control spend thread on WIR had a discussion last month that the 3s were worse than 2s. Oh goody, something to look forward too....

[Firebird]

And, taking a child away from loving parents IS Child abuse.

Is it loving to sit back and allow your child to basically commit slow suicide? We're not talking about a little extra chunk, we are talking about children of SINGLE DIGIT AGES who are morbidly obese. If that's not neglect, I don't know what is. At that age, how are they supposed to know any better?!

I don't think foster care is necessarily the answer, especially at first, because there are much more extreme situations and the kids in them should take priority. But intervention? Hell yes. Eventual removal if the parents refuse to play ball? Maybe.

So according to these "guidelines" I'm morbidly obese. Baloney! The state needs to get their dirty paws off our personal lives.

You can do whatever you want. No one's talking about locking you up until you lose weight. We're talking about kids here. Nobody asks to be born, and parents who take advantage of children's natural vulnerability out of selfishness, laziness, or anything else really make me ill.

I don't think the state should get involved in this. We can't legislate that everyone in the world be our interpretation of perfect. At some point we have to accept things that don't fit our own little vision of ideal.

I don't think "as a parent you are not permitted to allow your children to become morbidly obese without someone making your life much more difficult as a result" is too high an ideal to strive for, personally. It's not like anyone is saying your children can't be fat. We're talking MORBID OBESITY, which is totally preventable most of the time, in CHILDREN.

Let's say that it was proven that TV gives you cancer if you sit too close. Would you be in favor of no penalty at all for parents who don't make their kid sit a designated distance away from the TV in order not to contract cancer?!

This is the same damn thing.

And what about Skinnykids? No not the poster Shouldn't they be taken away as well? My son was in something like the 5th percentile for age/weight for years.

They should certainly be taken away if they're that thin because you're starving them. Allowing a child to become morbidly obese is just about equivalent in my mind to starving a child on the abuse/neglect scale.

Yes!!! This is a huge problem for poor families. They are looking for the most amount of calories for their dollar. Junk is cheap and it lasts longer than fresh food.

Okay, but even junk will not make you morbidly obese if the portions are limited and the kid exercises, even a little. Remember, we're not talking overweight here. We're not even talking obese. We're talking fat enough that you might die as a result. You might not be skinny eating burgers and fries, you might have high cholesterol, but unless you are eating an ungodly amount of them you're not going to be one, two, or three hundred pounds overweight.

Taking a child away from their family is extreme.

And we're talking about an extreme problem.

So, what age are you saying kids can be outside without direct adult supervision?

Excuses. If it's important enough to a parent to keep a child healthy, it can be done even if they never play outside alone. If my kid couldn't be outside for some reason and was this obese, you can bet your life there would be a treadmill in the basement.

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2011 11:01:45 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

The control spend thread on WIR had a discussion last month that the 3s were worse than 2s. Oh goody, something to look forward too....

I was talking to Mom about the terrible two's and she said "Wait until they're three. Then they can defy you and tell you you suck at the same time".

[swamp]

Jul 14, 2011 11:05:48 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Jul 14, 2011 11:01:45 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

The control spend thread on WIR had a discussion last month that the 3s were worse than 2s. Oh goody, something to look forward too....

I was talking to Mom about the terrible two's and she said "Wait until they're three. Then they can defy you and tell you you suck at the same time".

Oh, you've met my 3 year old.

And when she's giving me a problem, she weighs 60 pounds, I pick her up and toss her over my shoulder. And then pray my 5 year old behaves so I don't have to manhandle him too. It's a good thing I'm relatively strong.........

[Firebird]

Not to completely hijack, but most kids are probably more at risk of being molested by a trusted friend or family member than a random stranger on the sex offender list...

Also keep in mind that "sex offenders" aren't always labeled so because of crimes against children. It's possible to be labeled a sex offender for peeing in public. I'm not saying that's okay or anything, just that a sex offender in your neighborhood might not necessarily be Chester the Molester. Of course, it's still good information to have (and I think they list the offense on the registry now so you can tell).

ETA: Someone already said this but whatever.

If I could still run, I would be looking at adult field hockey leagues for fitness and fun - I hate traditional exercise.

So do I, but my life > my hatred of exercise. And if my kid's very life was on the line and I didn't force him to exercise, that would be terrible parenting.

Besides, I was and still am a picky eater - if I don't like the way it looks or smells, its not going near my mouth.

I'm a picky eater too but I try to always try things. Sometimes things that smell or look disgusting taste amazing. Example: pasta with cabbage. DF makes this sometimes. I want to burn the house down afterward because it smells so bad but for whatever reason, it tastes AWESOME. Healthy, too, if you use whole-wheat pasta (which we don't, but I'm just saying).

same here, except substitute alcohol and milk for 100% fruit juice and southern sweet tea.

Have you had Seagram's Sweet Tea Vodka? Best stuff on earth. It's lucky I don't live near a store that sells it and that it's wicked expensive when I can find it, otherwise I'd be a raging alcoholic.

That's the other thing. Some people are never going to be skinny, no matter how much weight they lose.

They don't need to be skinny, they just need to not be morbidly obese. I think a lot of people are reading this article and going OMG the state is threatening to take my kid because she's overweight! No. I would never advocate that being the first step and frankly, if it's not endangering a child's health it's none of the government's business how heavy your children are - as you said, we can't regulate everything and there's plenty of lousy parents out there who aren't abusive.

But having morbidly obese children and refusing to do anything about it is impetus enough in my book for outside intervention. Removal from the home should be a very last resort, and honestly it shouldn't be necessary. There are plenty of consequences which will get results in this area without taking children from their parents.

When they looked at what they were eating on camera however it turns out these people were eating 15,000-30,000 calories a day!

I repeat my earlier question. Who the hell can afford this? I was appalled by DF's and my eating out bill last month (no, I'm not going to tell you how much) - we were eating out CONSTANTLY and I don't think we've ever ingested more than four or five thousand calories in a single day. The thought of spending that much money on food blows my mind all over the place.

No offense meant to foster parents - I have worked with some truly wonderful ones. But even in the best case scenario, there are not enough to go around.

Agreed, and this is one of the reasons foster care really shouldn't even be considered here except in the most extreme cases. The kids who are getting the shit beat out of them, living in meth labs, and wearing the same clothes for eight straight weeks need foster homes more than morbidly obese children do.

It is falling and getting hurt, wandering into a body of water or pool, wandering away or getting lost, having a unchained dog come up and bite your kid.

I'm sure the parents who allow their children to play outside while they're cooking dinner have a window from which they can keep an eye on them, and there's nothing you can really do about an unchained dog even if you're in the yard. You'd obviously run to your kid right away, the same as you would if you were sitting out there with them.

That is part of the reason i no longer or rarely allow sleepoevers. Just too much risk nowadays in my opinion. Risk of sexual abuse or kids getting into drugs or alcohol.

I'd be careful with this one. Sleepovers are pretty normal and as long as you know the parents and you've checked with them that they'll be home, everything will most likely be fine. Too many restrictions on a normal childhood and kids start to rebel where they might otherwise not have felt the need to do so.

Also, keep in mind that your kids might not grow up to be Christians and there's nothing wrong with that.

/unsolicited advice.

I don't get the whole "it is more expensive to eat healthy" argument.

Well, it's legitimate to some extent. You can buy 10 boxes of mac and cheese or Rice-A-Roni (yum) for $10, where that same $10 might only buy you ingredients enough for a single healthy meal (or maybe two or three, tops). You can mitigate the cost somewhat by shopping around but a lot of people don't have that option, especially in urban areas. Have you ever tried to haul 30 pounds worth of groceries home on the train or bus? It isn't fun.

Is this an excuse to allow your kids to be morbidly obese? Fuck no.

$10 says you can't resist. You know it, you are going to post before you get to the end. ;D

I sort of compromised and posted as I went along, but you know me well ;D

Annnnnd now I'm done. I always have way too much to say on this subject.

[Firebird]

Also, the whole money component to this discussion is making me wonder if obesity and poverty play into one another in certain areas. You're poor, therefore you eat cheap food... or you eat way too much cheap food and therefore you're poor...

[Deleted]

They just had an article in the Buffalo News not too long ago stating that all of the chain grocery stores in the city closed, so people have to either take the bus into the suburbs or shop at convenience stores (which are expensive and have limited amounts of fruits & veggies (if any)). So I'd say that poverty plays into it.

[Angel!]

Jul 14, 2011 11:23:42 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 14, 2011 11:05:48 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I was talking to Mom about the terrible two's and she said "Wait until they're three. Then they can defy you and tell you you suck at the same time".

Oh, you've met my 3 year old.

And when she's giving me a problem, she weighs 60 pounds, I pick her up and toss her over my shoulder. And then pray my 5 year old behaves so I don't have to manhandle him too. It's a good thing I'm relatively strong.........

Good lord, Thank goodness I have a skinny child. I can barely lift a 50 lb bag of dog food & it doesn't scream & struggle to escape.

Off topic question - but, how do you guys handle it when they are actively fighting against you? Like the day when DS threw a fit in the parking lot I had to fight to get him into his car seat & then I could only buckle the arm buckles because he was fighting so much. I finally just sat in my seat & told him we couldn't drive until he calmed down & was fully buckled. That was a fun 10 minutes of listening to him scream. This phase is new to me & I don't know if I should physically fight him to get things done - like have him wearing pants or just walk away. The problem is he seems perfectly content running around without pants on if I just walk away from the situation.

[Firebird]

Again, though, how poor can you really be if you can afford to eat thousands upon thousands of calories per day? That has to be at least $1,000 a month in food costs, especially if more than one person in your family is obese.

[swamp]

If they are actively fighting and we're in a place where I can wait it out, I do. If not, I just go ahead and do what I gotta do.

[Deleted]

DS threw a fit in the parking lot I had to fight to get him into his car seat & then I could only buckle the arm buckles because he was fighting so much. I finally just sat in my seat & told him we couldn't drive until he calmed down & was fully buckled. That was a fun 10 minutes of listening to him scream.

Been there & handled it the same way.

For clothes issues, I've been saying "No shirt, no shoes, no service" to my kids for as long as I can remember. So when we do have to go somewhere, they know they've got to have clothes on. And I've never made a big deal out of what clothes they've got on, as long as they're covered.

[Deleted]

If I could still run, I would be looking at adult field hockey leagues for fitness and fun - I hate traditional exercise.

So do I, but my life > my hatred of exercise. And if my kid's very life was on the line and I didn't force him to exercise, that would be terrible parenting.

You took what I said out of context. My original post was emphasizing the fact that kids should be allowed to run around and play outside. It's great exercise and it's fun! If anything, kids have more options to stay fit and have fun than adults do. I mean yes, I like yoga and walking just fine, but if I could run around like a crazy person for hours and hours I'd much rather do that.

You'd better believe that when he's able, DS will be doing something OUTSIDE. DH is a home body who loves video games and I already told him that he needs to get some of that out of his system now so that he's not setting a bad example. We don't need to contribute to the new generation of pasty basement-dwellers.

[midjd]

Again, though, how poor can you really be if you can afford to eat thousands upon thousands of calories per day? That has to be at least $1,000 a month in food costs, especially if more than one person in your family is obese.

I doubt it's that much... I mean, ramen noodles have 400 calories a package and cost about $0.15. A box of mac n cheese is less than $1 and has probably 500 calories. 2-liter of generic soda is also less than $1... that's about 1,000 calories. A box of Little Debbie snack cakes is $2 or so, and close to 1,500 calories in the whole package. Those gigantic Hershey bars are $1 and have about a day's worth of calories for the average person

So say you're eating 10,000 a day (which is more than enough to lead to obesity, especially if you're sedentary...) at an average of $0.75 per 1,000 calories. $7.50 a day x 30... well, that's about half what DH and I spend on groceries in a month. And some people can gain weight on fewer calories than that.

Not saying some people don't spend an obscene amount of money on food... but I don't think that they're all breaking the bank to get that big.

[Angel!]

Jul 14, 2011 12:04:58 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Again, though, how poor can you really be if you can afford to eat thousands upon thousands of calories per day? That has to be at least $1,000 a month in food costs, especially if more than one person in your family is obese.

I agree. I think that would be a massive amount of food. I don't think just feeding you kid fast food even several meals a day would get you a morbidly obese child, I would think they would have to be eating an extraordinary amount of food to pull of a 400+ lb 12 year old.

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2011 12:04:58 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Again, though, how poor can you really be if you can afford to eat thousands upon thousands of calories per day? That has to be at least $1,000 a month in food costs, especially if more than one person in your family is obese.

Well, I don't know. Let's say you eat fast food 3 times a day plus have 3 snacks. Two Sausage McMuffins (740 cal) and a small coffee black (0 cal) is $3. Then lunch rolls around, and you get 2 Jr. Cheeseburger deluxes (600 cal), a value drink (130 cal) and a small fry (230 cal) from Wendy's. The total is now $7-$8 and 1700 calories. At my local store Herr's potato chips are on sale for $2.50. If you can eat an entire bag in one sitting, that's 1540 calories. The count is now up to 3240 calories and $10.50, and we still have 2 more snack and dinner to go.

[Firebird]

You took what I said out of context. My original post was emphasizing the fact that kids should be allowed to run around and play outside. It's great exercise and it's fun! If anything, kids have more options to stay fit and have fun than adults do. I mean yes, I like yoga and walking just fine, but if I could run around like a crazy person for hours and hours I'd much rather do that.

Agreed.

So say you're eating 10,000 a day (which is more than enough to lead to obesity, especially if you're sedentary...) at an average of $0.75 per 1,000 calories. $7.50 a day x 30... well, that's about half what DH and I spend on groceries in a month. And some people can gain weight on fewer calories than that.

True. I guess it's possible to eat a ton without spending a ton. But I think people who eat out a lot are more likely to be obese - cooking at home generally isn't quite as unhealthy. And eating out is going to cost more overall.

[midjd]

Heck Jenny, that's diet food... some of the burgers at Hardees are up to 1,500 cal

And eating out is going to cost more overall.

Agreed. But I think a lot of these people are mostly consuming the cheap, super-high-starch convenience foods - ramen, mac & cheese, pizza rolls, pop-tarts, etc.

[Angel!]

Jul 14, 2011 12:26:35 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

Jul 14, 2011 12:04:58 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Again, though, how poor can you really be if you can afford to eat thousands upon thousands of calories per day? That has to be at least $1,000 a month in food costs, especially if more than one person in your family is obese.

Well, I don't know. Let's say you eat fast food 3 times a day plus have 3 snacks. Two Sausage McMuffins (740 cal) and a small coffee black (0 cal) is $3. Then lunch rolls around, and you get 2 Jr. Cheeseburger deluxes (600 cal), a value drink (130 cal) and a small fry (230 cal) from Wendy's. The total is now $7-$8 and 1700 calories. At my local store Herr's potato chips are on sale for $2.50. If you can eat an entire bag in one sitting, that's 1540 calories. The count is now up to 3240 calories and $10.50, and we still have 2 more snack and dinner to go.

Add in those 2 more snacks & a dinner & you are looking at maybe $15 for the day - $450 for the month & that is just to feed one obese child. Throw in the adult that likely has the same poor eating habits & maybe another adult or kid & you are easily looking at over $1000 for the month.

[Firebird]

Well, I don't know. Let's say you eat fast food 3 times a day plus have 3 snacks. Two Sausage McMuffins (740 cal) and a small coffee black (0 cal) is $3. Then lunch rolls around, and you get 2 Jr. Cheeseburger deluxes (600 cal), a value drink (130 cal) and a small fry (230 cal) from Wendy's. The total is now $7-$8 and 1700 calories. At my local store Herr's potato chips are on sale for $2.50. If you can eat an entire bag in one sitting, that's 1540 calories. The count is now up to 3240 calories and $10.50, and we still have 2 more snack and dinner to go.

Coffee doesn't have any calories?! I didn't know that.

But anyway, add a couple more dollars for snacks and the dinner - say you're looking at $12 a day. And there are three people in your family who eat like this. $12 x 3 people x 30 days = $1,080 and we're assuming they're buying cheap food every time. And that doesn't include anything they might buy in the way of groceries, like milk.

ETA: Angel beat me ;D

[Deleted]

We don't have Hardee's around here. We only just got Sonic - mmmm.... tater tots and limeade...... <<drool>>

I was also trying to give "cheap" food options that give the most amount of calories for your dollar.

[midjd]

*cough* food stamps *cough*

(At least in some cases. I know DH's cousin gets about $500 a month... he's gone from 200ish to about 350 lbs in the past couple of years. I am not sure if the food stamps cover his entire grocery bill or not, but seeing what he eats (ramen & Mountain Dew), I wouldn't be surprised if it did).

[Deleted]

True Angel and Firebird. I also think it's part of the short-sighted mentality that a lot of poor(er) people have. It's cheap and convenient at the time, so they don't think of the long-range costs, financially or health-wise.

[Angel!]

Good point about the food stamps.

[Firebird]

I suppose you could get up to 10,000 calories/day cheaply if you stuck to Ramen and Rice-a-roni. At my store you can buy 10 packages of Rice-a-roni for $10, and 5 packages of Ramen for $1. 1 box of Rice-a-roni is 1200 calories as prepared (egad!). So if you only ate that, and you ate ten boxes per day, you'd be looking at $300 per month (not counting the butter you're supposed to include). And if you ate 25 packages of Ramen per day, that would be $150.

But I can't imagine anyone limiting their diet like that, least of all obese people.

[april47]

So who will go around and inspect those mythical abundant foster homes to see if they only have healthy food around?

[Firebird]

True Angel and Firebird. I also think it's part of the short-sighted mentality that a lot of poor(er) people have. It's cheap and convenient at the time, so they don't think of the long-range costs, financially or health-wise.

Yup, which goes back to midwesternjd's point about education. Education can't fix everything (laziness and stubbornness come to mind) but it's a start.

[Firebird]

So who will go around and inspect those mythical abundant foster homes to see if they only have healthy food around?

I don't think anyone is pretending that the foster care system doesn't have serious problems or that every overweight child should be removed from their home. We're talking about kids literally in mortal danger because of their parents' choices, which is basically the definition of child abuse severe enough to warrant CPS attention and measures.

And the article mentioned other intervention measures that would be utilized first. It's not like they show up one day and take your kid away. Parents should be given a reasonable amount of time and resources to make changes.

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2011 12:01:01 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

They just had an article in the Buffalo News not too long ago stating that all of the chain grocery stores in the city closed, so people have to either take the bus into the suburbs or shop at convenience stores (which are expensive and have limited amounts of fruits & veggies (if any)). So I'd say that poverty plays into it.

I live in buffalo and that is not true. Hell the hub for most buses is one of the universities (UB south) and there is a grocery store right across the street from the university.