NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 12:56:07 GMT -5
Actually he's not describing a democracy my friend, just a simple republic. Why does the far left seem to not be able to discern the difference between the two. A Democratic Republic, actually. It's like love and marriage. As the song goes, you can't have one without the other, if you believe in American principles. American principles have nothing to do with whether a country is a republic or a democracy. As far as a democratic-republic ( double redundancy description ? ) That is not what you said. OK, forget semantics, do you think everyone in a country should have the right to vote?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 13:06:07 GMT -5
American principles have nothing to do with whether a country is a republic or a democracy. As far as a democratic-republic ( double redundancy description ? ) That is not what you said. OK, forget semantics, do you think everyone in a country should have the right to vote? I will only attempt to answer for this country. All legal citizens should have the right to vote for what ever position is open for election in this republic. Following all constitutional rules and subsequent legal changes of course.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:07:32 GMT -5
I will only attempt to answer for this country. All legal citizens should have the right to vote for what ever position is open for election in this republic. Following all constitutional rules and subsequent legal changes of course.
I take it that you always attempt to answer only for this country and for no other country, and hence stay out of Israeli-Palestinian debates?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 13:12:42 GMT -5
I will only attempt to answer for this country. All legal citizens should have the right to vote for what ever position is open for election in this republic. Following all constitutional rules and subsequent legal changes of course. I take it that you always attempt to answer only for this country and for no other country, and hence stay out of Israeli-Palestinian debates? Huh?? Suggesting what? One can't comment on another countrys doings here..only stick to USA comments?..Lordy, am I in TROUBLE. #shucks2
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:16:29 GMT -5
I will only attempt to answer for this country. All legal citizens should have the right to vote for what ever position is open for election in this republic. Following all constitutional rules and subsequent legal changes of course. I take it that you always attempt to answer only for this country and for no other country, and hence stay out of Israeli-Palestinian debates? Huh?? Suggesting what? One can't comment on another countrys doings here..only stick to USA comments..lordy, am I in TROUBLE. DZ, You remain free. You don't dodge questions like JMA.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 13:17:52 GMT -5
Huh?? Suggesting what? One can't comment on another countrys doings here..only stick to USA comments..lordy, am I in TROUBLE. DZ, You remain free. You don't dodge questions like JMA. [phew] thanks was getting worried there for a minute.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:18:17 GMT -5
DZ, You remain free. You don't dodge questions like JMA. [phew] thanks was getting worried there for a minute. I got your back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 13:22:01 GMT -5
I will only attempt to answer for this country. All legal citizens should have the right to vote for what ever position is open for election in this republic. Following all constitutional rules and subsequent legal changes of course. I take it that you always attempt to answer only for this country and for no other country, and hence stay out of Israeli-Palestinian debates? You were describing an operating republic as a democracy. That tells me you don't understand the difference. We can't debate the Israeli - Palestinian problems if you disregard or blend two different forms of government. As I said previously, liberals have a hard time discerning the difference between republics and democracies.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:22:59 GMT -5
I will only attempt to answer for this country. All legal citizens should have the right to vote for what ever position is open for election in this republic. Following all constitutional rules and subsequent legal changes of course. I take it that you always attempt to answer only for this country and for no other country, and hence stay out of Israeli-Palestinian debates? You were describing an operating republic as a democracy. That tells me you don't understand the difference. We can't debate the Israeli - Palestinian problems if you disregard or blend two different forms of government. As I said previously, liberals have a hard time discerning the difference between republics and democracies. Nice dodge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 13:28:08 GMT -5
You were describing an operating republic as a democracy. That tells me you don't understand the difference. We can't debate the Israeli - Palestinian problems if you disregard or blend two different forms of government. As I said previously, liberals have a hard time discerning the difference between republics and democracies. Nice dodge. Didn't think you would be able to stay on subject. Not really surprised after the "democratic - republic American values " wandering statements.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 13:28:28 GMT -5
So you're saying the Israelis would have to be pretty sodding stupid to enfranchise the Palestinians? Debate master Lunatic is tough... but fair. They're such a fringe element that disenfranchising them wouldn't be worth the trouble. But yes. If a separatist party formed in the US, assuming there was any reliable way of determining who its members were (I can think of none), I would sanction the US federal government rescinding their right to vote or table legislation. This does not mean that the separatists are wrong. It simply means that their views are a threat to the democratic establishment and should not be tolerated, both as a matter of national self-preservation and of logical consistency.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:30:38 GMT -5
So you're saying the Israelis would have to be pretty sodding stupid to enfranchise the Palestinians? [image]
Just as sodding stupid as the kings and queens in the middle ages who gave up their thrones for democracy. What do you think of their decisions? Do you think the world would be a better place if they were not that sodding stupid?
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:31:51 GMT -5
Nice dodge. Didn't think you would be able to stay on subject. Not really surprised after the "democratic - republic American values " wandering statements. OK, so let me ask you a straight question. Should Palestinians have the right to vote in Israeli elections? Usually in democratic countries the rule is one person one vote. No discrimination.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 13:38:21 GMT -5
<<<<<Debate master Lunatic is tough... but fair. >>>>> Until he finds out his arguments aren't as logical or persuasive as he perceives them. Then it's time to put up wandering statements or inaccurate ones. Look who's dodging now.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:40:44 GMT -5
<<<<<Debate master Lunatic is tough... but fair. >>>>> Until he finds out his arguments aren't as logical or persuasive as he perceives them. Then it's time to put up wandering statements or inaccurate ones. Look who's dodging now. Come on dude, don't be cross. I was not that tough on you. I just pointed out that you were dodging.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 13:44:55 GMT -5
Didn't think you would be able to stay on subject. Not really surprised after the "democratic - republic American values " wandering statements. OK, so let me ask you a straight question. Should Palestinians have the right to vote in Israeli elections? Usually in democratic countries the rule is one person one vote. No discrimination. It's usually one citizen, one vote, but I digress. Since I don't know the Israeli voting laws I feel unqualified to answer that question.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:46:54 GMT -5
OK, so let me ask you a straight question. Should Palestinians have the right to vote in Israeli elections? Usually in democratic countries the rule is one person one vote. No discrimination. It's usually one citizen, one vote, but I digress. Since I don't know the Israeli voting laws I feel unqualified to answer that question. What do you think Israeli voting laws should be? Please don't dodge and say it is up to Israeli citizens. Then I will on your arse next time you say anything about how things should be in any country other than the USA.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 13:48:57 GMT -5
In some lala land where Israel-occupied Palestine is remotely comparable to feudal Europe?
Why are you reaching into outer space to maintain your position on this issue? The sad fact of the matter is that enfranchising the Palestinians is not in the Israeli national self-interest. You have admitted as much. If I were an Israeli living in Jerusalem and came in to read this thread start to finish, my first reaction would be to write my governmental representative and plead: for the love of King David, don't let the Palestinians vote!
I could care less that seven hundred years later the descendants of the last faction left standing form a stable democracy and peace reigneth o'er the land.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 13:49:29 GMT -5
Didn't think you would be able to stay on subject. Not really surprised after the "democratic - republic American values " wandering statements. OK, so let me ask you a straight question. Should Palestinians have the right to vote in Israeli elections? Usually in democratic countries the rule is one person one vote. No discrimination. If I can put my two cents in here..I would say Palestinian Israeli's , citizens of, Yes..Palestinian non Israeli's , not citizens of, No. They Palastinian Israeli's , supposedly a population of 1.6 million, about 20 % of the States populace, do have the vote..their participation is not great , their call on that, to vote or not to vote, and there are something like 17 representatives, Palestinian Israeli's in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament, with all the rights and privileges, though there have been some moments that they have had some problems..a fact..not a nice fact but a fact never the less.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 13:59:50 GMT -5
It's usually one citizen, one vote, but I digress. Since I don't know the Israeli voting laws I feel unqualified to answer that question. What do you think Israeli voting laws should be? Please don't dodge and say it is up to Israeli citizens. Then I will on your arse next time you say anything about how things should be in any country other than the USA. You may consider this a dodge because you won't understand my ego-less personality, but what I feel the Israeli voting laws should be, means nothing, to them or to me. Since I never presume my standards for government onto any other country feel free to call me on it at any time.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jun 17, 2011 14:08:20 GMT -5
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population of Israel in 2010 is estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the population.[4] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8] Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have voting rights.[10] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_IsraelSeems if you are a citizen or permanent residence you have a right to vote.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:15:46 GMT -5
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population of Israel in 2010 is estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the population.[4] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8] Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have voting rights.[10] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_IsraelSeems if you are a citizen or permanent residence you have a right to vote. There are about 4 million Arabs in Gaza and West Bank. Add them and you have a Arab majority in the land that Israel controls. Not surprising, as this land was populated by Arabs before Israel came in and took over trhe land by force. Israel have tried hard to keep up by impoting East european Jews but have failed. If all the Arabs in the whole of Israeli territory are loowed to vote, there will be Palestinian statehood tmrw.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 14:18:09 GMT -5
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population of Israel in 2010 is estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the population.[4] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8] Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have voting rights.[10] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_IsraelSeems if you are a citizen or permanent residence you have a right to vote. Thanks for the information CME. The last 15 words you posted will have to be my answer to nomorelunacy. He will likely call me a dodger again.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:21:42 GMT -5
In some lala land where Israel-occupied Palestine is remotely comparable to feudal Europe? Why are you reaching into outer space to maintain your position on this issue? The sad fact of the matter is that enfranchising the Palestinians is not in the Israeli national self-interest. You have admitted as much. If I were an Israeli living in Jerusalem and came in to read this thread start to finish, my first reaction would be to write my governmental representative and plead: for the love of King David, don't let the Palestinians vote! I could care less that seven hundred years later the descendants of the last faction left standing form a stable democracy and peace reigneth o'er the land. I am just reaching into the principles that the USA preaches to the Arab states - that the people should have the right to vote. Now, the Arab despots use the same logic that you are using above and deny that right. Israel does exactly the same. So perhaps you don't care about american principles of freedom and liberty and democracy, and think that is in outer space, but I do. The world as such becomes a better place when everyone has a right to vote in their own country's elections, even if that is not beneficial to the minority people in power. The world realized this for South Africa and forced an open election, and the white minority was pushed out of power, which it had held on to by force. Of course, you didn't like that either, as stated in your previous posts. I won't be able to change your mind on this, you prefer minorty power by force over majority power by democratic means. It is rather sad, but so it is.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:22:50 GMT -5
What do you think Israeli voting laws should be? Please don't dodge and say it is up to Israeli citizens. Then I will on your arse next time you say anything about how things should be in any country other than the USA. You may consider this a dodge because you won't understand my ego-less personality, but what I feel the Israeli voting laws should be, means nothing, to them or to me. Since I never presume my standards for government onto any other country feel free to call me on it at any time. All right then.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 14:24:56 GMT -5
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population of Israel in 2010 is estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the population.[4] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8] Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have voting rights.[10] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_IsraelSeems if you are a citizen or permanent residence you have a right to vote. Thanks for the update on Palastinian population, percentage of, have corrected, 2010 stats , can't argue with that, they do, Palastinian israeli's do reproduce in large #'s , possible the three decade before a majority can be shortened to two, lordy they, Israeli's do face a predicament here. "Negev Bedouins tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8]" That may change, the Israeli Government with the OK of the courts seem to be destroying hundreds of Bedouin illegal settlements, wanting the lands to go to Jewish settlements, moving the Bed to other all Bedouin locales..they , Beds, not happy. If needed , I can try to find the link but was in one of the sites I visit just recently.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:25:20 GMT -5
Bottom line, conservatives in the USA who support Israel's right to deny voting rights to Palestinians in the occupied territories are patently anti-American, and do not subscribe to the American ideals of freedom and liberty and democracy. At least Virgil has the balls to say that out loud rather than dodging.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:26:34 GMT -5
If I can put my two cents in here..I would say Palestinian Israeli's , citizens of, Yes..Palestinian non Israeli's , not citizens of, No.
Why don't the Palestinians in the occupied territories deserve Israeli citizenship, or citizenship in the independent state of Palestine?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 14:33:19 GMT -5
If I can put my two cents in here..I would say Palestinian Israeli's , citizens of, Yes..Palestinian non Israeli's , not citizens of, No.Why don't the Palestinians in the occupied territories deserve Israeli citizenship, or citizenship in the independent state of Palestine? Because your ideals don't apply over there ?
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 15:03:39 GMT -5
If I can put my two cents in here..I would say Palestinian Israeli's , citizens of, Yes..Palestinian non Israeli's , not citizens of, No.Why don't the Palestinians in the occupied territories deserve Israeli citizenship, or citizenship in the independent state of Palestine? Because your ideals don't apply over there ? I thought you don't talk about "over there"?
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