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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:58:30 GMT -5
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Jun 17, 2011 4:30:41 GMT -5
And what history book does that come from? Too many to write at this point.. try this about David..The biblical King David of Israel was known for his diverse skills as both a warrior and a writer of psalms. In his 40 years as ruler, between approximately 1010 and 970 B.C.E., he united the people of Israel, led them to victory in battle, conquered land and paved the way for his son, Solomon, to build the Holy Temple. Almost all knowledge of him is derived from the books of the Prophets and Writings: Samuel I and II, Kings I and Chronicles I. David was the eighth and youngest son of Jesse from the kingly tribe of Judah. He was also a direct descendent of Ruth the Moabite. David began his life as a shepherd in Bethlehem. One day, the prophet Samuel called him out of the field and anointed him without the knowledge of the current king, Saul. David simply returned to his sheep. His first interaction with Saul came when the king was looking for someone to play music for him, and the king’s attendant summoned the skilled David to play for him. Saul was pleased with David and kept him in his service as a musician. The first time David publicly displayed his courage was when, as an inexperienced boy armed with only a stick and a few stones, he confronted the nine-foot, bronze armored Philistine giant, Goliath of Gath. After skilled warriors had cowered in fear for 40 days, David made a slingshot, invoked God’s name, and killed the giant. After this, Saul took David on as commander of his troops and David formed a close friendship with Saul’s son, Jonathan. David was successful in battle against the Philistines and this aroused the jealousy of Saul, who tried to kill David by throwing a spear at him. David stayed with Saul, however, and Saul offered him his own daughter, Merav, as a wife. He later reneged on his promise, but offered David his second daughter, Michal, in exchange for the foreskins of 100 Philistines, a price that David paid. Saul’s jealousy of David grew and he asked his son Jonathan to kill David. Jonathan was a friend of David’s, however, and hid David instead. He then went to his father and convinced Saul to promise not to kill David. Saul promised, and David returned to his service. This promise did not last and, after Saul attempted to kill David a second time, Michal helped David run away to the prophet Samuel in Ramah. David returned briefly to make a pact of peace with Jonathan and to verify that Saul was still planning to kill him. He then continued his flight from Saul, finding refuge with the king of Moab. On the way, the priest Ahimelech of Nob gave David a weapon. When Saul heard this, he sent Doeg the Edomite to kill 85 of the city’s priests. In the course of his flight, David gained the support of 600 men, and he and his band traveled from city to city. At one point, in Ein Gedi, David crept up on Saul while he was in a cave, but instead of killing him, cut a piece from his cloak and confronted Saul. Saul broke down and admitted that David would one day be king and asked David to swear that he would not destroy Saul’s descendants or wipe out Saul’s name. David swore to this, but it did not stop Saul from continuing to pursue him. Finally, David and his supporters joined the service of Achish, the Philistine king of Gath who entrusted David with control of the city of Ziklag. Under Achish’s employ, David raided the cities of nomads who harassed the Jews and gave the spoils as gifts to the leaders of Judah to win their support for him against Saul. Eventually, while David was out battling a tribe called the Amalekites, Saul and Jonathan were killed on Mt. Gilboa in a fight with the Philistines. David mourned, and then began a new stage in his life, as king of Judah. He moved to Hebron, along with his wives, Ahinoam of Jezreel and Abigail of Carmel, and his followers. The people of Judea were grateful to David for saving them from desert raiders while he was in Ziklag, and they appointed David king. Meanwhile, Abner son of Ner crowned Ish-Boshet son of Saul king over the tribes of Israel. The kingdoms of Judah and Israel fought, with David’s dynasty growing stronger as Saul’s grew weaker. Finally, after Abner had a fight with Ish-Boshet, Abner approached David and made a pact with him, which allowed David to unite the two kingdoms and rule over all of Israel. As Abner was leaving David, however, David’s advisor and army commander, Joab, killed Abner without David’s knowledge. Soon, Ish-Boshet was also killed and the tribes of Israel anointed David as their king. David was 30 years old at the time, and had ruled over Judah for seven years and six months. Over the years, he had taken more wives and had many children. He had also made pacts with kings of various surrounding countries. David’s first action as king was to capture what is now the City of David in Jerusalem, fortify it and build himself a palace. When the Philistines heard that David had been anointed king and was threatening their hegemony over all of Palestine, they attacked, spread out over the Valley of Raphaim and captured Bethlehem. David retaliated and, in three battles, forced the Philistines out of Israel. Once David had established the safety of his kingdom, he brought the Holy Ark, which had been passed from city to city, to Jerusalem. He then wanted to build a temple to God and consulted Natan the prophet. Natan replied to David that God would always be with David, but it would be up to David’s son to build the Temple because David had been a warrior and shed blood. David then began fighting wars against Israel’s neighbors on the east bank of the Jordan. He defeated the Moabites, the Edomites, the Ammonites and the Arameans. These wars began as defensive wars, but ended with the establishment of a Davidic empire that extended over both sides of the Jordan River, as far as the Mediterranean Sea. David enforced justice in his empire and established civil and military administrations in Jerusalem, modeled after those of the Canaanites and Egyptians. He divided the country into twelve districts, each with its own civil, military and religious institutions. He also established Jerusalem as the secular and religious center of the country. Each district paid taxes to Jerusalem and the people began to make pilgrimages to Jerusalem each year on the holidays of Passover, Shavout and Sukkot. Despite this flawless reign on a national level, David had many problems in his personal life. One day while the men were at war, David spied a beautiful woman, Bathsheba, from his rooftop. He discovered that she was married to Uriah the Hittite, but this did not stop him from sending for her and getting her pregnant. He then recalled Uriah from battle and pretended that Uriah was the father of Bathsheba’s baby. Uriah refused to go home to his wife, so David sent Uriah to the front lines of battle, where he was killed. David then married Bathsheba. When confronted by Natan the prophet, David admitted his sin. In punishment, Bathsheba’s child died and David was cursed with the promise of a rebellion from within his own house. Bathsheba and David soon conceived a second son, Solomon. David’s personal strife continued when his son Amnon raped Tamar, Amnon’s half-sister. Absalom, who was David’s son and Tamar’s brother, then killed Amnon. Absalom fled, but David could not stop thinking about him. Finally, Joab convinced David to allow Absalom to return. Absalom was a handsome man and became popular with the people of Israel. Then, 40 years after Samuel had anointed David king, Absalom, along with 200 men, journeyed to Hebron with the intention of rebelling against his father and taking over his kingdom. He had the support of the men of Hebron who were insulted by the removal of the kingdom from Hebron to Jerusalem, the elders whose status was undermined by parts of David’s policy and the Benjamites who wanted to avenge Saul’s family. David feared that Absalom would return and conquer Jerusalem, so he and all his followers fled the city, leaving only 10 concubines to guard the palace. David told the priests Zadok and Abiathar to remain in the city along with his friend and now spy Hushai the Archite. Meanwhile, Absalom reached Jerusalem, took over the city and slept with David’s concubines. Hushai befriended Absalom, advised him, and told the priests to send messengers informing David of Absalom’s plans. David gathered his troops and then killed 20,000 of Absalom’s Israelite soldiers, including Absalom himself. David returned to power. A second revolt broke out at the hands of Sheba son of Bichri, but with the help of Joab, David succeeded in crushing this rebellion as well, and in killing Sheba. Eventually David grew old and had to stop fighting. He constantly felt cold and could not get warm. At this point, Adonijah, David’s oldest son, declared himself king. David, however, had promised Bathsheba that her son Solomon would be king, and publicly anointed Solomon. Fearful of retribution Adonijah ran to the altar in Jerusalem, but Solomon pardoned him and sent him home. David delivered a last set of instructions to his son, telling him to follow the words of God and to repay in kind specific people that had either wronged David or helped him. David then died after 40 years as king, 33 of those in Jerusalem. He was buried in the City of David. David was a poet and the rabbis believe that David wrote the Book of Psalms, or at least edited it. Throughout his life, David prepared for the construction of the Holy Temple by setting aside the necessary physical materials, commanding the Levites and others in their duties for the Temple, and giving the plan for the Temple to Solomon. It is then fitting that according to tradition, the Messiah, who will build the third temple, will be from the Davidic dynasty. Today, Jews pray daily for the coming of the "Messiah, son of David." The question for the Palestinians is why they broke international law and attract a sovereign state that had UN division on it side... This makes the land occupied land. Israel are within the law on this account. To answer the question, first Palestine needs a sovereign Body to have the power to control the events and prove they are able to so Israel will have a body to talk to that has power to make treaties.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 17, 2011 7:10:05 GMT -5
Israel became a nation with the support of many countries, but in becoming a country Israel acquired land that was already occupied by people living there — people who had been living there for a very long time... people who had no say in whether or not they wanted to give up their homes, their livelihood and their land so that Jews might start a new country at their expense. The only right Israel had in taking over the land was the right of force or power... power granted them by the United States and others for the sake of expediency.
And if you review history you will see that the borders of all nations evolved in roughly the same way. Each nation had to fight (and in Israel's case the fight was aided by powerful allies) to occupy the land until they could establish for themselves over time that this was their land; and since no one could take it away from them, that was that. Then tradition became the right. And then nations formally agreed on paper to abide by those traditions. The victors in war almost always became land owners and the vanquished became the underclass. If this is what you mean when you say that Israel has a right to exist, then Israel has a right to exist. But there is no moral right that can legitimately be claimed here. this is spot on. thanks for pasting this content, Lakhota.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Jun 17, 2011 7:34:33 GMT -5
Israel became a nation with the support of many countries, but in becoming a country Israel acquired land that was already occupied by people living there — people who had been living there for a very long time... people who had no say in whether or not they wanted to give up their homes, their livelihood and their land so that Jews might start a new country at their expense. The only right Israel had in taking over the land was the right of force or power... power granted them by the United States and others for the sake of expediency.
And if you review history you will see that the borders of all nations evolved in roughly the same way. Each nation had to fight (and in Israel's case the fight was aided by powerful allies) to occupy the land until they could establish for themselves over time that this was their land; and since no one could take it away from them, that was that. Then tradition became the right. And then nations formally agreed on paper to abide by those traditions. The victors in war almost always became land owners and the vanquished became the underclass. If this is what you mean when you say that Israel has a right to exist, then Israel has a right to exist. But there is no moral right that can legitimately be claimed here. this is spot on. thanks for pasting this content, Lakhota. Had no say.. Someone called the attack on Israel.. That is an act of war. It is against the UN charter and the declaration of war is still against Israel. Palestine has declared it a "Holy War" to the end(Fatah). The Israeli–Palestinian conflict is the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.[1] The conflict is wide-ranging, and the term is also used in reference to the earlier phases of the same conflict, between Jewish and Zionist yishuv and the Arab population living in Palestine under Ottoman or British rule. It forms part of the wider Arab–Israeli conflict. The remaining key issues are: mutual recognition, borders, security, water rights, control of Jerusalem, Israeli settlements,[2] Palestinian freedom of movement[3] and legalities concerning refugees. The violence resulting from the conflict has prompted international actions, as well as other security and human rights concerns, both within and between both sides, and internationally. Many attempts have been made to broker a two-state solution, involving the creation of an independent Palestinian state alongside an independent Jewish state or next to the State of Israel (after Israel's establishment in 1948). As recently as 2007, a majority of both Israelis and Palestinians, according to a number of polls, prefer the two-state solution over any other solution as a means of resolving the conflict.[4] Moreover, a considerable majority of the Jewish public sees the Palestinians' demand for an independent state as just, and thinks Israel can agree to the establishment of such a state.[5] A majority of Palestinians and Israelis view the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an acceptable location of the hypothetical Palestinian state in a two-state solution.[6] However, there are significant areas of disagreement over the shape of any final agreement and also regarding the level of credibility each side sees in the other in upholding basic commitments.[7] Within Israeli and Palestinian society, the conflict generates a wide variety of views and opinions. This highlights the deep divisions which exist not only between Israelis and Palestinians, but also within each society. A hallmark of the conflict has been the level of violence witnessed for virtually its entire duration. Fighting has been conducted by regular armies, paramilitary groups, terror cells and individuals. Casualties have not been restricted to the military, with a large number of fatalities in civilian population on both sides. There are prominent international actors involved in the conflict. The two parties engaged in direct negotiation are the Israeli government, currently led by Benjamin Netanyahu, and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), currently headed by Mahmoud Abbas. The official negotiations are mediated by an international contingent known as the Quartet on the Middle East (the Quartet) represented by a special envoy that consists of the United States, Russia, the European Union, and the United Nations. The Arab League is another important actor, which has proposed an alternative peace plan. Egypt, a founding member of the Arab League, has historically been a key participant. Since 2003, the Palestinian side has been fractured by conflict between the two major factions: Fatah, the traditionally dominant party, and its later electoral challenger, Hamas. Following Hamas' seizure of power in the Gaza Strip in June 2007, the territory controlled by the Palestinian National Authority (the Palestinian interim government) is split between Fatah in the West Bank, and Hamas in the Gaza Strip. The division of governance between the parties has effectively resulted in the collapse of bipartisan governance of the Palestinian National Authority (PA). A round of peace negotiations began at Annapolis, Maryland, United States, in November 2007. These talks were aimed at having a final resolution by the end of 2008.[8] Direct negotiations between the Israeli government and Palestinian leadership began in September of 2010 aimed at reaching an official final status settlement.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 7:51:24 GMT -5
What exactly makes Israel any better or more special than other Middle Eastern countries - or any country for that matter? Better question would be what exactly does not make Israel any better or more special than other middle eastern countries? If the "Arab spring" is real- Israel is the role model for mid east democracy. Only one quarter of one percent of Arabs live free, and 100% of them live in ISRAEL. Living free as second class citizens who can't vote in elections. Yeah, that's the ideal of the conservatives indeed.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 7:56:44 GMT -5
Israel became a nation with the support of many countries, but in becoming a country Israel acquired land that was already occupied by people living there — people who had been living there for a very long time... people who had no say in whether or not they wanted to give up their homes, their livelihood and their land so that Jews might start a new country at their expense. The only right Israel had in taking over the land was the right of force or power... power granted them by the United States and others for the sake of expediency.
This is precisely the point. The problem was with the Christians in Europe. Mistreating Jews was their national pastime. So, after WWII, the UN decided to remove all Jews from Europe and put them in a separate country somewhere. The right solution would have been to eradicate anti-Semetism in Europe, but that was too much work. Mass exodus of Jews from Europe was considered to be an easier solution.
Now the Jews expelled from Europe needed to be resettled somewhere. UK and USA thought a lot about it. The options were giving up their own land to resettle the Jews, but that was hard. So they decided to do charity with the land of the Arabs. And the ME crisis started.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 7:58:21 GMT -5
I also take issue with Netanyahu’s statement that Palestinians are ” sitting in part of our ancestral homeland.” True… AND Israel-Palestine is more recently ancestral homeland, and current homeland, for Palestinians. Just about 6% of the land of Israel-Palestine was owned by Jews at the time the Partition Plan would have given Jews about 55% of Israel-Palestine. Would any of us feel justified to stake claim to lands our ancestors left thousands of years ago? The Zionist plan for Palestine was a typical 19th century colonial undertaking. The rabbis who scouted Palestine as one of three possible locations for a Jewish homeland returned to tell Herzl, the father of Zionism: “the bride is beautiful but already married to another man.” The Zionists, with British support, colonized anyway. “And the rest,” as they say, “is history.” More: workforjusticenow.com/blog/?p=24Colonized anyway is spot on. The Palestinian struggle is one of anti-colonialism.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 8:00:00 GMT -5
Sorry Lakhota your barking at the moon...they are there, they are not moving, unless forced too..and if so, it won't be easy and many will get hurt, not just the Jews, on this you can take to the bank.. You feel it is a injustice, and in small some ways , it might be, didn't say it was, just concede it might , in some small way but the world is full of injustices. Many a lot worse then this one, one being the reason this one you think is so bad is here . So bark away.., to discuss this rationally is not in your interests, so sorry my friend time to scroll...by. Now imagine if someone said the same about the Nazi occupation and the Holocaust. That the world is full of injustices ...
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 8:02:53 GMT -5
I have no problem at all with ending "Apartheid" in Israel. I'll add an immediate disclaimer that there are fundamental differences between what you're calling "Apartheid" in Israel and Apartheid in South Africa--and yes, the devil is in the details.
All I am asking is that Palestinians in the occupied territories are allowed to vote in Israeli elections so that Israel can become a truly democratic country. You for or against that?
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 8:06:30 GMT -5
Will the Israel supporters on this board agree to carve out a part of American land and give it to Israel? ...they can totally have California, imo... I would do it a little differently. For everyone who cries anti-Semetism when the the issue of Zionist apartheid and genocide is brought up, I would displace them from their homes and put an Israeli family there. Then I would like to see how they react, after they realize how the Palestinians feel.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Jun 17, 2011 8:13:10 GMT -5
A common belief enforced by the msm. Israelis are no angels...ther have been many mosque bombings by them, neighborhoods bulldozed down, civilians shot,etc by them.It takes two.To say this conflict is all Palistine's fault is just wrong.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 17, 2011 9:44:40 GMT -5
Good Lord, Lunatic. Get a grip, for Christ's sake. Where in the world did you get this? So, after WWII, the UN decided to remove all Jews from Europe and put them in a separate country somewhere. The right solution would have been to eradicate anti-Semetism in Europe, but that was too much work. Mass exodus of Jews from Europe was considered to be an easier solution.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 9:50:59 GMT -5
History.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 10:02:11 GMT -5
Given the citizens of Israel-occupied Palestine don't have the slightest wish to vote in the best interest of the country, I'd have to say "against".
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 10:04:54 GMT -5
Given the citizens of Israel-occupied Palestine don't have the slightest wish to vote in the best interest of the country, I'd have to say "against".
Is that how democracy is supposed to work?
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 17, 2011 10:09:40 GMT -5
History? Whose version? Is there a volume available anywhere for the general public to read. . . anywhere?
I'd like to know how it is that somebody can uproot the few millions that were left alive in Europe, take the places they had called home for generations, maybe centuries, transport them, their old, their children, their goats and their personal belongings, and set them down "somewhere" and nobody notice. But 65 years later somebody does notice and this new somebody claims the Jews are illegally occupying "their" homeland?
Do you really mean to say that?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 10:19:25 GMT -5
I think that speaks for itself... And finally we get to the crux of it Lakhota, so disappointing, so passe..yet not really and even with the support of the State from so many here, I am glad to see it and thank you, your little comment "I think that speaks for itself".. in answer to a short one about Israels Economy and banks says it all, and why Israel is and has to be a State for Jews, basically a Jewish State, because your feeling about the people is not a call in the wilderness but one that is out there in quantity, another 'to " as far as button that pisses people off.. I see you subscribe to the Protocols my friend..so passe, and sad but if you do you do, nothing one can do about it. Just be aware and on guard, which they , Israeli's are, as are their friends. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion" They are fraudulent you know, but since when did that stop anti Semites , and if not one, those who just really get "pissed off " when they think about those people, from subscribing to their content..
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 10:19:36 GMT -5
Denying suffrage to people who'd favour the dissolution/destruction of the nation granting them that right? I can live with that.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 10:21:00 GMT -5
Granting suffrage to people who'd favour the dissolution/destruction of the nation granting them that right? That's what the British told to the Americans.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 10:23:26 GMT -5
The Americans didn't favour the destruction or dissolution of Great Britain. Moreover, their grievances were with taxation without representation. Israel isn't collecting taxes from Palestine the last time I checked.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 10:24:02 GMT -5
History? Whose version? Is there a volume available anywhere for the general public to read. . . anywhere? I'd like to know how it is that somebody can uproot the few millions that were left alive in Europe, take the places they had called home for generations, maybe centuries, transport them, their old, their children, their goats and their personal belongings, and set them down "somewhere" and nobody notice. But 65 years later somebody does notice and this new somebody claims the Jews are illegally occupying "their" homeland? Do you really mean to say that? Read the history of how Israel was formed. Since it was British land, and British policy by and large, it would help if you read some history books written by the British.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 10:25:51 GMT -5
The Americans didn't favour the destruction or dissolution of Great Britain. Moreover, their grievances were with taxation without representation. Israel isn't collecting taxes from Palestine the last time I checked. Oh yes they did, as America was part of Britain at that time. George Washington would be considered as a terrorist today (but only if he were an Arab). Palestinians do pay taxes to Israel.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 10:27:41 GMT -5
...which are immediately remitted to the Palestinian government.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 10:29:26 GMT -5
Brits didn't really care for these people, the Jews..thought of them as "stiff necked people " , possible still do, for the most part even today, not their biggest supporters. On the other hand, they really liked the Arab, felt they were jolly good folks, thought they were a bit smelly and not quite all there but very manipulative and they also had all that great stuff , oil, that made things go ...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 17, 2011 10:30:48 GMT -5
...still no more karma points, despite being karma-lized... is this to illustrate the point about depriving the Palestinians?
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 10:31:02 GMT -5
...which are immediately remitted to the Palestinian government. That's no different that Federal taxes from residents of Florida being given back to Florida. Doesn't negate the right of the residents of Florida to vote in US elections. Besides the Palestinian govt is a relatively new phenomena, and a very small part of the taxes collected goes back to the Palestinian Govt.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 17, 2011 10:31:48 GMT -5
Denying suffrage to people who'd favour the dissolution/destruction of the nation granting them that right? I can live with that.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Jun 17, 2011 10:32:21 GMT -5
History? Whose version? Is there a volume available anywhere for the general public to read. . . anywhere? I'd like to know how it is that somebody can uproot the few millions that were left alive in Europe, take the places they had called home for generations, maybe centuries, transport them, their old, their children, their goats and their personal belongings, and set them down "somewhere" and nobody notice. But 65 years later somebody does notice and this new somebody claims the Jews are illegally occupying "their" homeland? Do you really mean to say that? Israel created a 55% of the land Nation. Palestine declared war but lost land.. They should have thought of the effect of the war before they started it, little evidence they did. Took it to the UN about the lose and we have had peace talks for 65 years.. They have never recognised Israel except that they will destroy Israel. They have six or seven active war elements.. Who specks for the Palestine? West Bank or Gaza??? Who is in control? Just a thought, Bi Metal Au Pt
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 10:34:48 GMT -5
Denying suffrage to people who'd favour the dissolution/destruction of the nation granting them that right? I can live with that. Can we take away the rights of conservatives to vote? They don't vote in the best interest of the nation. Can we still remain a democracy if we do that? I am amazed that so many conservatives are coming out against democracy. Then may be I am not that amazed after all. Conservatives across countries have always favored tyranny of the minority.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 17, 2011 10:41:12 GMT -5
<<< Conservatives Survivalists across countries have always favored tyranny of control over the uprising minority. >>> ...fixed...
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