hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 16, 2011 23:59:21 GMT -5
Time to buy off the Israelis and Palestinians and start a Holy Land Theme Park run by Scandinavians...
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Post by ed1066 on Jun 16, 2011 23:59:30 GMT -5
The left wing anti-semitism parade is on display...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 17, 2011 0:00:37 GMT -5
Does Israel Really Have a Right to Exist?Does anyone find it interesting that Israel is the only country on the planet going around with this incessant insistence that everyone recognize her right to exist? Given that we Palestinians are the ones who have been dispossessed, occupied, and oppressed, one might expect that we should be the ones making such a demand. But that isn’t the case. Why? Because our right to exist as a nation is self-evident. We are the natives of that land! We know we have that right. The world knows it. That’s why Palestine doesn’t need Israel or any other country to recognize her right to exist. We are the rightful heirs to that land and this can be verified legally, historically, culturally, and even genetically. And as such, the only true legitimacy Israel will ever have must come from us abdicating our inheritance, our history, and our culture to Israel. That’s why Israel insists we declare she had a right to take everything we ever had — from home and property, cemeteries, churches and mosques, to culture and history and hope. More: dissidentvoice.org/2009/06/does-israel-really-have-a-right-to-exist/ ...tomato, tomahto...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 0:04:07 GMT -5
I have no problem at all with ending "Apartheid" in Israel. I'll add an immediate disclaimer that there are fundamental differences between what you're calling "Apartheid" in Israel and Apartheid in South Africa--and yes, the devil is in the details.
The Israelis could really care less if one--or every--nation without any stake in the matter denounces their policies. As they see it, they're implementing measures that are necessary for their national survival.
Moreover, the issue at hand is their borders. Even if their version of Apartheid were to end tomorrow, their national borders would still be contested, their enemies would still be raging at their doorstep.
If we could erect a magical dome over Israel, a social revolution might benefit them immensely. In the real world, they're naturally worried that if they go through the same (ongoing) "growing pains" that South Africa did, it would weaken their economy, cultural identity, institutions just long enough for it to be a significant risk to their national security. This is not an unreasonable fear.
I'm with Mr. Clay: if their enemies aren't willing to accept any borders, wherever the Israelis decide to put them, so long as they can enforce them, is where they should be.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 0:11:56 GMT -5
Does Israel Have A Right To Exist?The simple answer to this question is "No." Israel does not have a right to exist. But then again neither does the United States have a right to exist. At least not a moral right. In fact, no country has a "right to exist" except to the extent to which you can identify some universal value that gives a nation the right to exist, and even then only to the extent that you can verify that that nation qualifies as having such a right under your universal value system. Israel became a nation with the support of many countries, but in becoming a country Israel acquired land that was already occupied by people living there — people who had been living there for a very long time... people who had no say in whether or not they wanted to give up their homes, their livelihood and their land so that Jews might start a new country at their expense. The only right Israel had in taking over the land was the right of force or power... power granted them by the United States and others for the sake of expediency. And if you review history you will see that the borders of all nations evolved in roughly the same way. Each nation had to fight (and in Israel's case the fight was aided by powerful allies) to occupy the land until they could establish for themselves over time that this was their land; and since no one could take it away from them, that was that. Then tradition became the right. And then nations formally agreed on paper to abide by those traditions. The victors in war almost always became land owners and the vanquished became the underclass. If this is what you mean when you say that Israel has a right to exist, then Israel has a right to exist. But there is no moral right that can legitimately be claimed here. And what of the United States? By what moral right does our country exist? By right of genocide through the extermination of the indigenous people who were already living here when our ancestors arrived? The difference between the United States and Israel is that much of the world sympathizes with the plight of the Palestinian people. Many identify with them because they share a common ethnic background and/or religion, so many people around the world are not disinterested. This makes victory or genocide not so easy to accomplish. Here you have a significant fight on your hands. It was easier for our country to exterminate the people who occupied what is now the continental United States because the indigenous natives who lived here had no powerful allies, and they, without support, lacked sufficient technology to defend themselves. Our ancestors justified their behavior by calling American Indians "savages." But American Indians were not savages. We were the savages. We broke every agreement we ever made with them. We did every dishonorable thing one group of people could do to another. We had no moral right to do what we did. So... will there be peace in the Middle East in our lifetime? It depends on what you call peace. But in terms of what I call peace, there will be none until the truth is acknowledged and told by all the parties who were and are responsible, and surely not until some honorable arrangements, including reparations, are made to those who were cheated. As for us and our children, and as for them and their children, we have all been cheated. And as for those of us who call ourselves citizens, most of us are cheaters as well as having been cheated. For we fail in our obligation as human beings to acknowledge the truth, because we don't like what the truth sounds like or what the implications might be if we did tell the truth. Many of us are simply uninformed, uneducated, brainwashed, and/or oblivious, and for that we have ourselves, our government, and each other to blame. No one is absolved. There is no honor in silence, ignorance, or cowardice... and no peace either. www.gpln.com/israel.htm
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hello fromWarsaw
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Hiya! Wake UP!!
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 17, 2011 0:20:16 GMT -5
"The left wing anti-semitism" You are confused....it's about fairness, and not blind support of RW Israeli governments....
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 17, 2011 0:31:38 GMT -5
What exactly makes Israel any better or more special than other Middle Eastern countries - or any country for that matter? Better question would be what exactly does not make Israel any better or more special than other middle eastern countries? If the "Arab spring" is real- Israel is the role model for mid east democracy. Only one quarter of one percent of Arabs live free, and 100% of them live in ISRAEL.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 17, 2011 0:34:34 GMT -5
You would appear to be making the argument that we should all be grateful our ancestors wiped out the indigenous peoples, Lak. Incidentally (and I know I'll regret pointing this out), historians theorize that 2-7 million people lived on the North American continent in any century pre-Columbus. The current number of Native Canadians and Native Americans is about 5.5 million. I won't debate "genocide" with you, but doesn't the unchangingness of the numbers belie the term "extermination" in the asymptotic sense that Mr. Goldman is using it?
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 17, 2011 0:44:08 GMT -5
I wonder why Lakota left this part out of his cut and paste. It goes to the Palestinians and having their own state. I say the Palestinians and I don't include the Jews because I believe the Jews have demonstrated their willingness time and time again, whereas I have yet to see a willing acknowledgement from the Palestinians. But why did Lakota leave it out? It was in bold print, right in the middle of the article, and seems to be a reasonable requirement. I wonder if he'll tell us why he thought it so unimportant that it could be omitted. "No government or nation has a right to exist unless that government and its people are striving to adhere to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights... and that includes: 1). a willingness to announce to the world and to their own people that that's what their goal is, and 2). substantial evidence, according to some reasonable standard, that that's what they are, in fact, striving to do."
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 17, 2011 0:59:39 GMT -5
<<< I wonder why Lakota left this part out of his cut and paste. >>> ...too long an article?
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 17, 2011 1:05:32 GMT -5
.too long an article? For lakota? The poster who has been known to make 7 posts to get all of his cut and pastes in? You DO know how to break a guy up, don't you? My side hurts already.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 17, 2011 1:07:47 GMT -5
<<< For lakota? The poster who has been known to make 7 posts pages to get all of his cut and pastes in? >>> ...fixed...
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 17, 2011 1:10:56 GMT -5
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Jun 17, 2011 1:55:34 GMT -5
"Israel became a nation with the support of many countries, but in becoming a country Israel acquired land that was already occupied by people living there — people who had been living there for a very long time... people who had no say in whether or not they wanted to give up their homes, their livelihood and their land so that Jews might start a new country at their expense. The only right Israel had in taking over the land was the right of force or power... power granted them by the United States and others for the sake of expediency. "
As I recall, Israel goes back to David and the land was theirs.. Funny that as soon as the formal government was formed and system set up some parties started a war on this population.. Now they say the land is theirs.. So why did they take the action to start a war??? Did they give the new nation reconnection to the past or the people a fair start at sovereignty?? I think not... Things would be different if the money sent to help the Palestinian was not stolen and they did now keep sending rockets at school children in school buses.
One more thing, the only major county in the area where everyone can vote for power is the land of Isaiah. You need also to think about the other people of the land like the Episcopal and Hindos.
Just a thought, Bi Metal Au Pt
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 2:01:22 GMT -5
Really? Where does it say anything about "It goes to the Palestinians and having their own state"?
The man is suggesting a value system, which the article discusses.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Jun 17, 2011 2:08:00 GMT -5
LOL, classic the Declaration of Human Rights is a UN document. The UN is a big part of why Israel exist today. Exactly. Not to mention that the creation of Israel was actually the Balfour Declaration of 1917. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 2:33:21 GMT -5
Why are they a Jewish State? They are a Jewish State because History has shown that unless they are a Nation unto their own, their people will be persecuted , never allowed to assimilate and live out their lives in peace.
Just the way it is, they some how piss off to many people. After a while living with in other groups, some one starts looking around at them side ways and starts whispering to friends, strangers, neighbors, family even, "this Izzy guy and his family, have you noticed that their noses"...and off it goes and with in a period of time..there it goes again.
It is the truth , it is a happening, no matter how often some one says, No, No, this time it's different, within x amount of generations..there is just something about them that pisses people off.
They are to rich, to poor, to smart, to cocky, to educated, to uneducated, to shifty, to placid, to...and there are always to's..always, and off it goes again.
There fore they decided, the ones who were left after the last to's..this time if some get pissed off and they start looking around again and whispering, it will be us who are looking around, getting pissed off and doing the whispering..on our selves.. and we'll do this by forming our own State.
If they want to start something , then we'll all be together , easy to find, with a purpose saying the only ones who can really get pissed off at us and do something to alleviate that pissed off feeling will be those who are able to go through all of us..no more being here , there every where.
Thus there they are, the State of Israel, a Jewish State. Want to do something about it, come on over and try..though why you would want to is beyond us, we are loud, boisterous, cocky, have large noses, quarrel among ourselves.
Some even have questions about ourselves, "why are you doing this they ask"..and then we start arguing but still, when the chips are down, the arguing ends and we all stand together ..if for no other reason, we know, there is no other place to go because where ever we go...we will piss some one off in time and after a while ..it starts all over again, so that's why ...
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 2:39:28 GMT -5
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Viva La Revolucion!
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Jun 17, 2011 2:47:08 GMT -5
Don't you just luv it ?? Good ole Paul W. Business, Science, math, debating, drama, music, freedom, democracy.. These are all things that are part of the Jewish Culture, sound familiar??
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 2:52:38 GMT -5
A Jewish State“WE, the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world... “HEREBY PROCLAIM the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called ISRAEL.” – Declaration of the State of Israel, May 14 1948 “Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority.” – Edward Said, The Question of Palestine. www.ifamericansknew.org/history/jewish_state.html
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 17, 2011 3:08:34 GMT -5
Lakota say: >>>>>>The man is suggesting a value system, which the article discusses.<<<<<<<
Me say Lakota speak with for-ked tongue.
Me say Lakota use other man work for put down Israel. Him leave out part say other people need give word no more fight.
Me say need eyes don't like each other, eyes look opposite way so can understand what Lakota say.
Me say no can trust man eyes don't like each other.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:10:56 GMT -5
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 17, 2011 3:19:05 GMT -5
Sorry Lakhota your barking at the moon...they are there, they are not moving, unless forced too..and if so, it won't be easy and many will get hurt, not just the Jews, on this you can take to the bank..
You feel it is a injustice, and in small some ways , it might be, didn't say it was, just concede it might , in some small way but the world is full of injustices. Many a lot worse then this one, one being the reason this one you think is so bad is here .
So bark away.., to discuss this rationally is not in your interests, so sorry my friend time to scroll...by.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:20:59 GMT -5
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:25:35 GMT -5
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:28:19 GMT -5
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Jun 17, 2011 3:31:13 GMT -5
As I recall, Israel goes back to David and the land was theirs.. Funny that as soon as the formal government was formed and system set up some parties started a war on this population.. Now they say the land is theirs.. So why did they take the action to start a war??? Did they give the new nation reconnection to the past or the people a fair start at sovereignty?? I think not... Things would be different if the money sent to help the Palestinian was not stolen and they did now keep sending rockets at school children in school buses. Lakhóta, You have failed to answer the question.. Why did the Palestinian forces attack Israel one day after the official start of the nation??? This is also important, why are they still in denial of being the aggressor in 1948 and refuse to commit to peace. Palestine has yet to reconfirm the right of Israel to exist.. Would you return land to an army that tells the world they will destroy you with the superior positions over your capital and other important assets.
A++, Israel has built eight world class universities. Several are in the top 100!! R&D is the growth power of the system and they are giving the European university a run for the money and best TEACHERS!!! Their Central Bank is run by MIT Professor, IMF economist and Great independent thinker Stanley Fischer. The economy of Israel is growing and banks are doing very well!!
Just a thought, Bi Metal Au Pt
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:35:33 GMT -5
And what history book does that come from?
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:38:43 GMT -5
I think that speaks for itself...
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Post by lakhota on Jun 17, 2011 3:51:16 GMT -5
I also take issue with Netanyahu’s statement that Palestinians are ” sitting in part of our ancestral homeland.” True… AND Israel-Palestine is more recently ancestral homeland, and current homeland, for Palestinians. Just about 6% of the land of Israel-Palestine was owned by Jews at the time the Partition Plan would have given Jews about 55% of Israel-Palestine. Would any of us feel justified to stake claim to lands our ancestors left thousands of years ago? The Zionist plan for Palestine was a typical 19th century colonial undertaking. The rabbis who scouted Palestine as one of three possible locations for a Jewish homeland returned to tell Herzl, the father of Zionism: “the bride is beautiful but already married to another man.” The Zionists, with British support, colonized anyway. “And the rest,” as they say, “is history.” More: workforjusticenow.com/blog/?p=24
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