NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 22:21:52 GMT -5
Stop fighting, I can agree with--purely from an economic standpoint. As for "denounc[ing] Israel's apartheid regime", your intent is to hurt the Israelis' feelings? News flash: when you are being bombed and you hate your enemies' guts, you really couldn't give less of a toot what some sanctimonious non-stakeholder on the other side of the planet "denounces". The world put pressure on South Africa and apartheid ended. Apartheid in Israel can end just as easily. All the hating in the world won't work.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 16, 2011 22:24:23 GMT -5
I never hear any Israeli supporters voicing any consideration that Arabs may have some legitimate historical and current grievances about Israel being plopped in their midst. Not the point..may have a point..reality of the world Lakhota..get it back..or "deal with it "
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2011 22:31:09 GMT -5
South Africa's economy subsequently imploded. Their industries and exports collapsed. Their standard of living--according to any credible authority--has degenerated anywhere from "significantly" to "unfathomably" for all classes of society.
Form one line, Israel. No shoving.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 16, 2011 22:31:22 GMT -5
As usual, religion is at the center of hate and turmoil.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 22:31:31 GMT -5
I am certain that WWIII would start over Israel.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 16, 2011 22:32:25 GMT -5
I never hear any Israeli supporters voicing any consideration that Arabs may have some legitimate historical and current grievances about Israel being plopped in their midst. Israel has taken it all into consideration and Arabs living in Israel have better lives than anywhere else in the Middle East. At least regular Arabs. Everywhere else the most evil and violent Arabs live VERY HIGH ON THE HOG INDEED. Most Muslims who actually live in Israel are very happy to have Israel exist in the world. Israel would make peace if the thugs who rule the middle east wanted peace. Palestinians are cat's paws for the evil thugs who want nothing but death. They don't care how many children die. That is because they are evil. There is no compromise with evil. That's because evil is a liar. As far as Arab Israeli's , I believe I posted a couple of links that say a different story..in many ways, yes , here rather then living there true for many, possible the majority, but "are very happy to have Israel exist in the world."..nope, no matter what Natanjahu said in Congress.. Some very major problems in that respect Marsha and getting worse. Israeli foreign affairs minister, Avigdor Lieberman, want them all to be sent to Jordan, those not given Jordanian citizenships,. here as guests and any time it feels necessary, guest can be asked to go home..do I have to repost them..find new ones, they are there..just to post something as you did, as if it is so, just not right. At least put in a IMHO. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 16, 2011 22:34:04 GMT -5
South Africa's economy subsequently imploded. Their industries and exports collapsed. Their standard of living--according to any credible authority--has degenerated anywhere from "significantly" to "unfathomably" for all classes of society. Form one line, Israel. No shoving. So economic stability of the rich justifies apartheid? please tell me that's not what you meant to infer...
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 22:35:17 GMT -5
South Africa's economy subsequently imploded. Their industries and exports collapsed. Their standard of living--according to any credible authority--has degenerated anywhere from "significantly" to "unfathomably" for all classes of society. Form one line, Israel. No shoving. So you think it was better that apartheid continued in South Africa?
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Post by lakhota on Jun 16, 2011 22:35:45 GMT -5
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 22:36:34 GMT -5
South Africa's economy subsequently imploded. Their industries and exports collapsed. Their standard of living--according to any credible authority--has degenerated anywhere from "significantly" to "unfathomably" for all classes of society. Form one line, Israel. No shoving. So economic stability of the rich justifies apartheid? please tell me that's not what you meant to infer... That's exactly what he meant. The South similarly suffered after slavery was outlawed. Industry loves nothing better than slave labor.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2011 22:37:23 GMT -5
I'm saying that the average lowerclassman in pre-1994 South Africa was significantly better off than he is now, by any objective measure. This is the statistical reality. Infer from that fact what you will. The full fruits of the revolution remain to be seen but I expect that yes, the citizens of South Africa would be better off had the apartheid continued. Now, some could argue that the subsequent collapse was a "growing pain" of an inevitable social restructuring and that South Africa will, in the coming decades, ultimately benefit from the revolution. This is certainly not an unreasonable view. It could also come to pass that the nation degenerates into a civil war where one faction slaughters or drives out all others. This is certainly not unprecedented. And if this ultimately comes to bear, I'm sure that the citizens of South Africa (however principled they may be) would have much preferred the status quo. Consider me a pragmatist.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 22:39:47 GMT -5
Israeli Arabs love Israel like Southern Blacks loved the South.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 22:40:40 GMT -5
I'm saying that the average lowerclassman in pre-1994 South Africa was significantly better off than he is now, by any objective measure. This is the statistical reality. Infer from that fact what you will. I infer that you like apartheid, which is not surprising.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 16, 2011 22:42:11 GMT -5
Israeli Arabs love Israel like Southern Blacks loved the South. ...there's a lot of poignant irony in this statement...
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 22:49:33 GMT -5
Incidentally, GDP per capita has increased sharply in South Africa since the end of apartheid. So the BS fact from Virgil was just BS.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 16, 2011 22:54:05 GMT -5
Israeli Arabs love Israel like Southern Blacks loved the South. ...there's a lot of poignant irony in this statement... Don't quite see Arabs singing the equivalent song with the fervor of those who sing "Old Man river...in show boat..sorrow but love and nostalgia ..nope just don't see it..
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 16, 2011 22:55:53 GMT -5
...there's a lot of poignant irony in this statement... Don't quite see Arabs singing the equivalent song with the fervor of those who sing "Old Man river...in show boat..sorrow but love and nostalgia ..nope just don't see it.. ...then why not keep looking?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2011 22:56:22 GMT -5
Ha! Try looking at "wealth inequity", Mr. Lunacy. GDP per capita means nothing if it's 99% concentrated in 1% of the population. To wit (from WSWS): Unemployment and economic growth
One of the most significant issues affecting working class South Africans is massive unemployment. Over the last nine years the rate of unemployment has steadily increased, with between 30 and 42 percent of the labour force caught in “a vicious cycle of open unemployment.” Between 5.2 million and 8.4 million South Africans are unemployed, depending upon whether one applies the official definition or an extended definition of unemployment.
Household surveys in 2001 revealed that 87 percent of the bottom 40 percent of South African households had “no or one working family member and relied heavily for their livelihoods on pensions and remittances.” The most affected section of the population is black, with “about 45 percent of households in the lowest two income quintiles” having “no income earners in 2001.”
The report points out that being employed “does not necessarily mean having full or adequate employment,” with large numbers of people, predominantly women, underemployed.
Low-quality jobs characterised by poor working conditions and low wages are prevalent in the economy, and only a small proportion of South Africans enjoy the benefits of high-quality jobs. Also to wit ( Helium): More facts about inequality in South Africa:
The average black worker makes 12,000 rand per year ($1525 US). A white worker averages 65,400 rand ($8,270 US).
About 71% of white South Africans have at least a high school education. 22% of blacks have finished high school.
18% of black households have running water, while 87% of white households do.
95% of white families have a telephone, and 46% own a computer. For black families, 31% have a phone, and less than 2% have a computer. Figures you'd look at GDP and walk away. ETA: And though I'm usually loathe to quote Wikipedia, they summarize the issue nicely: South Africa is ranked in the top 10 countries in the world for income inequality.[44][45][46] The high level of overall income inequality has further accentuated: the country’s Gini coefficient increased by four percentage points, from 0.66 to 0.70, between 1993 and 2008, and income has become increasingly concentrated in the top decile.[43] Inequality between urban and rural areas is changing: while rural poverty rates remain substantially higher than those in urban areas, urban poverty rates are rising and rural rates seem to be falling.[43]
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 16, 2011 23:00:48 GMT -5
Comment to Lunacy.
"Israeli Arabs love Israel like Southern Blacks loved the South. "
And blacks like Jews love the Democratic Party.
Go and figure that.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jun 16, 2011 23:22:58 GMT -5
Over the centuries that land has changed hands many times. From the Crusaders, the Turks, the Ottoman Empire, the French, the British on and on. So who is to say which group these lands belong to? The UN tried to settle the issue in the 40's but still no consensus of who has a right to what and where. In reality the Palestinians are a group of peoples that Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq and others did not want and even today do not really trust. They for all practical purposes are the modern version of the Jewish dilemma after WW-2.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 23:25:29 GMT -5
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 23:26:34 GMT -5
Over the centuries that land has changed hands many times. From the Crusaders, the Turks, the Ottoman Empire, the French, the British on and on. So who is to say which group these lands belong to? The UN tried to settle the issue in the 40's but still no consensus of who has a right to what and where. In reality the Palestinians are a group of peoples that Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq and others did not want and even today do not really trust. They for all practical purposes are the modern version of the Jewish dilemma after WW-2. Exactly. Israelis are now doing to Palestinians what the Europeans did to the Jews for centuries culminating in the Nazis.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 23:27:07 GMT -5
Comment to Lunacy. "Israeli Arabs love Israel like Southern Blacks loved the South. " And blacks like Jews love the Democratic Party. Go and figure that. Because Republicans changed allegiance.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2011 23:37:48 GMT -5
Figure 2 shows black wage remuneration steadily rising from 1970-1996, when it effectively flatlines. Figure 4 shows "present estimates" of relative black/white income steadily rising until 1996, when the trend reverses. Neither metric has much relevance, since it's the intra-racial inequity that's growing. To quote der Berg et al.: Despite the uncertainty surrounding analysis of recent trends in poverty, a move towards increasing inequality overall and particularly within the black population group has been noted by several authors.
Whiteford and Van Seventer (2000:19) find that from 1991 to 1996 the incomes of the poorest 40 percent of black households dropped by more than 20 per cent, while the wealthiest 10 percent of black households experienced increases in income of almost the same magnitude. They explain this in terms of changing employment patterns: white employment showed the largest decline during the period, and, while black employment figures also reflected a downward trend, there was a rise in the number of blacks employed in skilled jobs coupled with increasing per capita wages for this group of workers. It's done now. The political upheaval has taken place and the new order has been established. Although time could prove me wrong, I strongly suspect another revolution to restore the status quo would not benefit the nation. Perhaps sir can explain the relevance of a hypothetical re-revolution in South Africa to Israel's border problems.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 16, 2011 23:38:56 GMT -5
Didn't I hear Netanyahu say that the only real thing holding peace out of the Middle East was that no one will agree that Israel has a right to exist.
I don't see or hear any reference to borders or land or who owns what in that comment. All I see is a plea for the right to be a human being and live peacefully among neighbors.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 23:44:48 GMT -5
Figure 2 shows black wage remuneration steadily rising from 1970-1996, when it effectively flatlines. Figure 4 shows "present estimates" of relative black/white income steadily rising until 1996, when the trend reverses. Neither metric has much relevance, since it's the intra-racial inequity that's growing. To quote der Berg et al.: Despite the uncertainty surrounding analysis of recent trends in poverty, a move towards increasing inequality overall and particularly within the black population group has been noted by several authors.
Whiteford and Van Seventer (2000:19) find that from 1991 to 1996 the incomes of the poorest 40 percent of black households dropped by more than 20 per cent, while the wealthiest 10 percent of black households experienced increases in income of almost the same magnitude. They explain this in terms of changing employment patterns: white employment showed the largest decline during the period, and, while black employment figures also reflected a downward trend, there was a rise in the number of blacks employed in skilled jobs coupled with increasing per capita wages for this group of workers. It's done now. The political upheaval has taken place and the new order has been established. Although time could prove me wrong, I strongly suspect another revolution to restore the status quo would not benefit the nation. Perhaps sir can explain the relevance of a hypothetical re-revolution in South Africa to Israel's border problems. The trend reverses? Are we looking at the same graph? ;D So you agree that ending of apartheid in South Africa was a good thing? If you do, why then are you against ending of apartheid in Israel?
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 16, 2011 23:45:58 GMT -5
Didn't I hear Netanyahu say that the only real thing holding peace out of the Middle East was that no one will agree that Israel has a right to exist. I don't see or hear any reference to borders or land or who owns what in that comment. All I see is a plea for the right to be a human being and live peacefully among neighbors. Will the Israel supporters on this board agree to carve out a part of American land and give it to Israel?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 16, 2011 23:55:22 GMT -5
Didn't I hear Netanyahu say that the only real thing holding peace out of the Middle East was that no one will agree that Israel has a right to exist. I don't see or hear any reference to borders or land or who owns what in that comment. All I see is a plea for the right to be a human being and live peacefully among neighbors. Will the Israel supporters on this board agree to carve out a part of American land and give it to Israel? ...they can totally have California, imo...
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Post by ed1066 on Jun 16, 2011 23:57:39 GMT -5
They are the only middle eastern country that would prefer not to see the US reduced to a bloody stain on the map, you realize? Liberals do indeed realize this, and that is why so many of them hate Israel and the Jews...
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Post by lakhota on Jun 16, 2011 23:58:34 GMT -5
Does Israel Really Have a Right to Exist?Does anyone find it interesting that Israel is the only country on the planet going around with this incessant insistence that everyone recognize her right to exist? Given that we Palestinians are the ones who have been dispossessed, occupied, and oppressed, one might expect that we should be the ones making such a demand. But that isn’t the case. Why? Because our right to exist as a nation is self-evident. We are the natives of that land! We know we have that right. The world knows it. That’s why Palestine doesn’t need Israel or any other country to recognize her right to exist. We are the rightful heirs to that land and this can be verified legally, historically, culturally, and even genetically. And as such, the only true legitimacy Israel will ever have must come from us abdicating our inheritance, our history, and our culture to Israel. That’s why Israel insists we declare she had a right to take everything we ever had — from home and property, cemeteries, churches and mosques, to culture and history and hope. More: dissidentvoice.org/2009/06/does-israel-really-have-a-right-to-exist/
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