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Post by marshabar1 on May 11, 2011 19:28:09 GMT -5
That El Paso suck up speech really fried me. Yes we can! Screw America!
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 19:31:21 GMT -5
How can anyone not know they are illegal? Did he have false documents provided by his parents, and never knew it?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 19:43:11 GMT -5
if I'd never held a job in HS, I would never have had reason to ask my parents for my birth certificate, SS card, etc. from what I remember of the article, this kid did every extracurricular known to man and was quite active in his church. he probably never worked, and never needed to know his status. the clip I saw on TV, he speaks with a perfect ( ) Boston accent. food for thought - Dad's got a green card. Mom was born here. I could have very easily been born in Canada and carried across the border in Mom's lap while Dad drove. how would I know if nobody told me, and I didn't need to provide documentation for anything?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 19:45:38 GMT -5
But-- driver's license?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 19:52:36 GMT -5
near crisis mode for illegals around here. there have been a few busts of sizable rings that would provide sufficient documentation for getting a state-issued driver's license. I don't know if this kid had one, wherever he lived (I'm going to have to go look that up now, I want to say Everett) was well within the areas where public transportation is widely available. he most likely didn't need one. if he did have one, it's not a stretch to me that his parents gave him bogus docs. it happens all the time around here.
I know you're trying to poke holes, but this stuff does happen. these people aren't going to vaporize because you (and others) don't think it's possible.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 19:55:28 GMT -5
I'm not trying to poke holes. I'm trying to understand how someone could not know they are illegal, and all I can think of is the parents bought docs for the kid. Another bad on the parents.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 20:02:15 GMT -5
exactly, and further reasoning why this Act needs to be passed, IMHO. this kid (and others) really and truly thought nothing hinky was up.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 20:26:24 GMT -5
I could probably support a case by case evaluation. Can't support any blanket Dream Act, though-- it would end up being abused, I think. And I just can't support any kind of blanket amnesty with so many people in line doing the right thing-- just like your parents did, and friends of mine, and my kid's spouses parents did. It has to mean something. It should be a privilege to come here, not a right. Another Dream thing I don't like. Military-- as Molly said yesterday, there is a waiting list now. This would be used by politicians to get votes. I have NO faith at all that illegals under Dream would not be chosen over American kids that want to serve. THAT would be a whole new kind of discrimination. Given the behavior of our gov't, how could anyone believe they would not do this?
Same with college. What is there to stop Dream Act illegals from getting preferential treatment?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 20:35:55 GMT -5
what preferential treatment do you expect to see? all I would expect is that they get treated fairly. I would hope that the kid I used in my example would be able to use the full ride he earned through his schoolwork.
really though - do you think there isn't preferential treatment for some kids already? all those legacy kids that have no business in the Ivy League, that are there because Daddy gave a lot of money? wow.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 11, 2011 20:38:53 GMT -5
I don't agree with the DREAM act, but because it's so strict, i could probably tolerate it. I don't think it would be a disaster if we enacted it. I know it must suck to live your whole life in a country and find out at 18 that you're an illegal and suddenly deported, but the blame should be placed on the parents, not on the country. I don't have to worry about that though . I'm about as all American as they come. My grandfather was a firefighter in Florida, my dad has been a federal employee his entire adult life, and I'm on the same path. I have a birth certificate and SS card that clearly show I was born in Indiana. I would be open to the reform of legal immigration. I know it takes a very long time and a lot of money to come to this country legally. While I don't have very much knowledge of the immigration process, speeding it up and simplifying it, especially for highly skilled and educated immigrants, IS good for the country. America is a place other people want to come to, would should leverage that to plunder the worlds talent. And perhaps if coming to this country legally were easier, fewer would feel the need to come here illegally. But I still believe any immigrant should read, write, and speak english, at least on a working level, and have a understanding of american government and culture, as well as not be a vegabond.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 20:41:46 GMT -5
How about all the affirmative action kids? I would expect more of the same with the Dream Act kids, unless they already had earned their spot without the Dream Act. You have a lot more faith than I do in the politics of education. But, then again, I think you and I have opposing views on politics, also.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 11, 2011 20:44:24 GMT -5
One of the big questions I have about the DREAM act is how someone will prove their age. It's not like you can pull up a birth certificate and verify that this adult before you came in as a child or came in last week. It leves a lot to the word of the individual.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 20:44:28 GMT -5
Coyotes and human smugglers also cost a lot of money, but no waiting.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 11, 2011 20:47:54 GMT -5
"phenoix-- it drove me crazy yesterday when Obama kept referring to "immigration"--- which is NOT THE ISSUE!!! If these politicians can't even say the word illegal there is not a chance they will work to fix it."
Exactly. Liberals often play word games like this. You can't just be opposed to illegal immigration, you're opposed to IMMIGRATION, legal or otherwise. Not only that but you're a RACIST who hates mexicans.
Personally, I would think legal immigrants would be the most outraged by illegal immigration.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 20:51:48 GMT -5
quite frankly, I'd rather give the spot to an Affirmative Action kid than a legacy one. the average legacy kid is there because they couldn't get in anywhere else. if they had worked to earn a spot somewhere, most of them want to blaze their own path rather than follow in Daddy's footsteps and be seen as a legacy kid. the average Affirmative Action kid has sought out the opportunity to go further than he probably would have without help. he will likely better appreciate the assistance he's been given, and not waste it.
*this is my OPINION, but I'd be willing to bet money that I'm not too far off actual in my analysis.
phenoix, I wouldn't say that we're placing the blame on the country by allowing a path to citizenship. I'd venture that we're allowing the kids to legally pursue their own path to success. they already did 90% of the work themselves, while not ever realizing they were illegal.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 20:54:30 GMT -5
One of the big questions I have about the DREAM act is how someone will prove their age. It's not like you can pull up a birth certificate and verify that this adult before you came in as a child or came in last week. It leves a lot to the word of the individual. I will admit I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of age requirements within the Act. I think age is "proven" by school records. you may be 19 (actual) when you graduate, but you got to graduation in the same amount of time as a kid who's 17 or 18. does that make sense? there are significant documentation requirements for the Act, like you said - very stringent.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:02:43 GMT -5
True AZ story. All my boys played ball, always made All Stars. For 10 years I had one or more boys in All Stars. We lived in a very small town in southern AZ. For all stars we had to play other towns in our area, and travel. Every single year either Douglas or Nogales won the tournament. Problem was-- both of those towns are on the border, with sister cities in Mexico. Lots of daily back and forth. By the time the kids were 11 or so, the boys on the border town teams-- 100% Hispanic, usually no English except for one of the coaches, had mustaches, long sideburns, girlfriends in the stands-- well developed girlfriends.... It was absurd!! Our boys were shrimps compared to theirs, and no matter how good they were it was like MS playing HS. It was no secret they were using false BCs, but, being kid ball-- what was anyone going to do? It was ridiculous. Lots of nonsense going on in southern AZ, including kids being driven from the Mexico side to the border, then picked up AT the border by OUR school buses and taken to OUR schools.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:10:44 GMT -5
I have an issue with affirmative action. I have an issue with ALL things discriminatory. Unless it is some job that requires a certain level of muscle or something I would prefer that applications did not even have age, gender, race, nothing. Qualifications only.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on May 11, 2011 21:25:19 GMT -5
If these kids are given clemency, and once they become citizens, they will be able to sponsor their illegal parents to become legal residents. This was a part of the DREAM Act. This will only encourage more and more immigrants to enter our country illegally along with their children. hmmm....yes and no. the Act limits the people that can benefit from it to those that are well-documented (by school records and such) as having been here when the Act passes. any new illegals have no claim to the Act. I think you misunderstood me. I am trying to explain that the illegal children who will qualify under the dream act, after becoming legal residents, will be able to sponsor their illegal parents and eventually legalize their parents. So it is a back door amnesty in a sense because initially the children who were brought here illegally by no fault of their own, will be legalized via the dream act, then once legal, they will be able to legalize their parents who brought them here illegally. It is mass amnesty.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on May 11, 2011 21:33:15 GMT -5
exactly, and further reasoning why this Act needs to be passed, IMHO. this kid (and others) really and truly thought nothing hinky was up. About 30% of the students in my class are here illegally. They ALL know who they are and they talk about it openly.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 11, 2011 21:34:25 GMT -5
"I am trying to explain that the illegal children who will qualify under the dream act, after becoming legal residents, will be able to sponsor their illegal parents and eventually legalize their parents. So it is a back door amnesty in a sense because initially the children who were brought here illegally by no fault of their own, will be legalized via the dream act, then once legal, they will be able to legalize their parents who brought them here illegally. It is mass amnesty. "
keep in mind I don't support the dream act, but this is not entirely true. The DREAM act doesn't allow extended family to be sponsored, and parents and siblings can only be sponsored after 12 years (which is a lot of time in my opinion). In addition, parents or siblings would have to leave the country for 10 years before they could be sponsored legally. Keep in mind the backlog for visas for siblings is already decades long.
Again though, I wonder how someone can prove all this though. The big problem with illegal immigration is that you don't normally have good records to match up to the persons involved.
I haven't read anything about marriage though.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 11, 2011 21:37:06 GMT -5
"have an issue with affirmative action. I have an issue with ALL things discriminatory. Unless it is some job that requires a certain level of muscle or something I would prefer that applications did not even have age, gender, race, nothing. Qualifications only."
Affirmative action is outside the scope of this thread, but I agree. I always found it ironic that we have to fight discrimination based on race, color, sexual orientation ect by openly promoting it in decision making. Never made sense to me. If we really wanted to end discrimination, then we'd have a color/sex/religion blind society. Affirmative action is just another word for reverse raacism/sexism, and punishing the son for the sins of the father.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 21:38:23 GMT -5
like unions, affirmative action had a time and place. I think we're past that now though.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 11, 2011 21:41:41 GMT -5
exactly, and further reasoning why this Act needs to be passed, IMHO. this kid (and others) really and truly thought nothing hinky was up. About 30% of the students in my class are here illegally. They ALL know who they are and they talk about it openly. I've never said there aren't kids that know their situation. whether or not they know what the deal is, can they really change their situation as a kid? what would they do? there are kids that don't know they are illegal, there are kids that have absolutely earned their way to college based on their academic performance. these kids did not find their way to this country on their own, and (IMHO) shouldn't be punished for their parents actions.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on May 11, 2011 21:52:06 GMT -5
Obama is having his justice department harangue any state with law suits that tries to protect its citizens and its economy from the results of being unwanted hosts to illegal immigration, but says not a word when Utah issues its own version of green cards to any illegal who wants one. Nuff said about amnesty.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 22:04:14 GMT -5
Agree, Henry, and if that first sign did not come right out of AZ we have some just like it. Seriously, instead of deer crossings, we have illegal crossings.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 22:31:34 GMT -5
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on May 11, 2011 22:35:17 GMT -5
"I am trying to explain that the illegal children who will qualify under the dream act, after becoming legal residents, will be able to sponsor their illegal parents and eventually legalize their parents. So it is a back door amnesty in a sense because initially the children who were brought here illegally by no fault of their own, will be legalized via the dream act, then once legal, they will be able to legalize their parents who brought them here illegally. It is mass amnesty. " keep in mind I don't support the dream act, but this is not entirely true. The DREAM act doesn't allow extended family to be sponsored, and parents and siblings can only be sponsored after 12 years (which is a lot of time in my opinion). In addition, parents or siblings would have to leave the country for 10 years before they could be sponsored legally. Keep in mind the backlog for visas for siblings is already decades long. Again though, I wonder how someone can prove all this though. The big problem with illegal immigration is that you don't normally have good records to match up to the persons involved. I haven't read anything about marriage though. I have read the Dream Act (2010 version) many times. It does not seem to include any limitations for the sponsoring of parents and extended family, once the illegal "child" becomes legal. (the "child" can be up to 35 years old!) So What the dream act essentially accomplishes is a mass amnesty but at a slower rate than "immigration reform" or blanket amnesty.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 11, 2011 23:28:16 GMT -5
How about all the affirmative action kids? I would expect more of the same with the Dream Act kids, unless they already had earned their spot without the Dream Act. You have a lot more faith than I do in the politics of education. But, then again, I think you and I have opposing views on politics, also. krickitt-what does 'affirmative action kids' have to do with this thread? And what do you mean by 'affirmative action kids'?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 10:14:38 GMT -5
Obama praying away at the national Hispanic Prayer Breakfast, once AGAIN using the words immigration, skipping over the issues. blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/obama-on-immigration-we-need-not-have-amnesia-about-how-we-populated-this-country-.htmlObama on Immigration: We Need Not Have "Amnesia About How We Populated This Country" May 12, 2011 10:43 AM ABC's Sunlen Miller (@sunlenmiller) reports: Speaking before the National Hispanic Prayer Breakfast in Washington, DC this morning President Obama said that while it may be tempting to think of immigrants as different, Americans ought not have “amnesia” about how they got here. “It can be tempting to think that those coming to America today are somehow different from us. And we need to not get -- have amnesia about how we populated this country,” President Obama said quoting a verse in the Book of Deuteronomy about loving the stranger, “What this verse reminds us to do is to look at that migrant farmer and see our own grandfather disembarking at Ellis Island or Angel Island in San Francisco Bay, and to look at that young mother newly arrived in this country and see our own grandmother leaving Italy or Ireland or Eastern Europe in search of something better.” The occasion to speak at the annual breakfast this morning gave President Obama the opportunity to speak again on comprehensive immigration reform, just three days after delivering a major speech, political in nature in El Paso, Texas earlier this week, meant to create momentum outside of Washington, DC for reform. “I know there are some folks who wish I could just bypass Congress,” Obama said to laughter noting that some in the room have been frustrated with his pace of change on this issue, not meeting his original goal to pass comprehensive reform his first year in office, “I can't. Well, what I can do is sign a law. What you can do is champion a law. What we can do together is make comprehensive immigration reform the law of the land. That's what we can do. “ MORE..
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