Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 7:51:13 GMT -5
Are you purposefully missing the point?
I'm missing the point? Hoops talks about women having a "victim mentality" and then you both turn around and act like the sexual harassment laws are put in place specifically to prevent you from ever complimenting a woman.
No. You keep insisting that you can get fired for complimenting a woman's shirt. That isn't true. That's like stabbing someone on a white carpet and then claiming that you got into trouble for getting blood on someone else's white carpet. It completely misses the actual injury that was inflicted.
And by the way, we do NOT have the ability to go to our HR director and complain that someone's complimented us in an inappropriate manner, even if it's true, even if it truly made us feel threatened, precisely because of reactions like this.
A coworker told me the other day that the color of my shirt was very flattering. I have absolutely no problem with this compliment, and neither does any other reasonable woman.
Now, let's say he'd said the exact same thing while pointedly staring at my breasts. Suddenly the exact same innocuous compliment isn't so innocuous after all. Suddenly, he is making me feel incredibly uncomfortable and creeped out. Can I say anything? No, because almost everyone's reaction is going to be EXACTLY LIKE YOURS. "All he said was that your shirt is a good color on you? What's wrong with that?" And that is exactly why NON-VERBAL sexual harassment is just as insidious and wrong as any other kind.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 7:56:55 GMT -5
Here's a real example for you guys. At least two women at work have told me lately that I'm looking good and asked if I've been working out or dieting. I have actually been working out, and I've cleaned up my diet a bit, both of which are showing. I'm pretty sure neither of these women were hitting on me. One of them is a bit like my work mom. However, I could legitimately file a sexual harassment complaint against either one of them if I decide that the comments make me uncomfortable. There's also the issue that I think far fewer men would say that to a female coworker because we're much more aware that we'd be fired in a hot second if we said something like that to a woman and she complained. Even though in all cases the comments weren't meant to be sexual at all really. It was more supportive if anything. Paying somebody a compliment for perceived effort on their part.
See, a guy at my work said the same thing to me a couple of months ago and I had zero problem with it. So no, do not assume that I have a "victim mentality." I'm not looking for insult in the slightest remark, and neither is any other reasonable woman.
Even from the guy who has already made me uncomfortable enough to document an incident, I wouldn't consider something like that harassment, although it would be much less welcome and it would make me uncomfortable as hell. I wouldn't make an issue of it unless he lingered over it though.
You guys seem to have a problem with the fact that sexual harassment IS defined, largely, as "sexual behavior or talk that makes other people unsafe." And sure, it's possible to completely blow that standard out of proportion. It's possible to take ANY law so literally that you're not really in keeping with the intent of it anymore. So using extreme examples isn't the best way to make your point. ANY law can be taken to extremes.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 8:10:24 GMT -5
Contrary to what you ladies think, not every guy who says something nice to you is imagining you naked and trying to get you in bed. Sometimes we're just making conversation or trying to be nice. Or rather, we would be, if we weren't too afraid to even talk to you now that even a perceived slight could result in us losing our career.
Again, there is no possible way that your giving a female coworker an innocuous compliment such as that her shirt is a nice color is going to get you fired UNLESS you are ALSO doing one of the following:
1) Giving her that compliment when it's already been established that she doesn't feel comfortable around you and would prefer that you not talk to her about anything non-work related, which would only be the case if she had made some sort of previous complaint;
2) Using non-verbal behavior to make her feel uncomfortable while you say it. Continuing to stare at her breasts rather than moving on with the conversation, licking your lips, standing too close to her, that kind of thing;
3) Combining that innocuous compliment with a much less innocuous comment, like "It would look even better if it was tighter up top."
(Even then, you probably wouldn't be fired over it because it would be difficult to prove, but leave that aside.)
If you're not doing any of those things, then believe it or not I don't immediately assume that you are picturing me naked and/or want to get me in bed. I just say thank you, feel all warm and fuzzy for a minute, and then move on. That is a fairly normal reaction to compliments; it is not and should not have to be a typical reaction to a comment that is designed to make you feel unsafe or harassed.
There is a difference. No normal woman goes to work hoping that some guy will compliment her shirt so that she can feel all persecuted and scream harassment. Normal women go to work, accept compliments that come their way in the spirit that they're intended, and actually don't really think about this issue very much at all unless someone gives them a reason to feel unsafe.
And a LOT of times, that reason isn't even something you could document anyway. There are plenty of ways to make a woman feel pressured, harassed, even threatened without saying a single word when you outweigh her by 100 pounds, if you're the kind of person who likes to do that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 8:21:19 GMT -5
I don't know, but whether or not it makes somebody uncomfortable is a pretty stupid line in my opinion. Hearing people talk about their faith at work makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't mean I should be able to get them fired for doing so. Pretty much anything that comes out of a pregnant woman's mouth that's related to her pregnancy is gross and uncomfortable, doesn't mean I should be able to get her fired. It's a disgustingly easy line to abuse, whether or not it really happens in practice. I don't have something better to replace it with, but that doesn't mean I have to like the current standard. I really don't think it's asking too much for adults to act like adults and learn to be a little selectively deaf. You aren't going to like every single aspect of every minute of your work day, or every single thing that comes out of your coworkers mouths, to a certain extent you need to just get the hell over it, or never leave the house. That's all I'm saying.
I agree with this entire paragraph. What you don't seem to understand, Dark, is that this isn't the typical stimuli for a sexual harassment complaint. Unless it's specifically directed at you, repeatedly, reasonable people do not report on their coworkers because they hear a discussion about sex in the bathroom. And if they did, they would quickly develop a reputation for doing so, and no one would take them seriously.
Religious harassment, in my book, is just as bad as sexual harassment. In both cases, you're being asked to do, believe, or endure something that you don't want to do, believe, or endure.
And just because men make fewer specific complaints than women doesn't mean that men don't have an equal right to speak up when something makes them uncomfortable. If anything, they have MORE of a right to do that because they're automatically taken more seriously than women - as this thread clearly demonstrates, it's easier to write off a woman as being "oversensitive" when she makes a complaint. If a man complains about being sexually harassed, the presumption is, "Wow, she must have done something REALLY, REALLY bad for a MAN to be bothered enough to complain."
You guys might want to consider the possibility that the very fact that you don't make these complaints more often is proof that you're not as threatened by them. You may think it's icky to hear women talk about their pregnancy (and I agree with you) but at the end of the day YOU DO NOT FEEL PHYSICALLY THREATENED BY SUCH TALK. There is zero danger that the pregnant lady is going to assault you or make you feel bodily threatened.
I didn't document the incident with my coworker until he pushed it to the point where I felt like I couldn't rule out the possibility that he was planning to hurt me. When you talk about women reporting men for making them feel "uncomfortable," you are (usually) NOT talking about the kind of discomfort that comes from hearing icky things. You are (usually) talking about the kind of discomfort that comes from FEELING VIOLATED BY SOMEONE THAT HAS THE POWER TO PHYSICALLY HURT YOU IF HE SHOULD DECIDE THAT HE WANTS TO HURT YOU.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 8:32:59 GMT -5
Now, sure, you might feel like it's ridiculous to feel threatened in that way by some guy telling you that you've got a great ass. It's EASY to feel like something is ridiculous when it's not something that has HAPPENED TO YOU.
I used to be really good friends with a (straight) male. Because he was classically "hot" and we lived in an area with a high gay population, he was often hit on by guys very crudely and repeatedly. Oddly enough, he had a much different perspective on sexual harassment than the two of you. Oddly enough, he understood exactly what I meant when I said that I felt unsafe by someone telling me that he wasn't going to give up until I went out with him.
Could it be because he'd actually HAD THE EXPERIENCE of being hit on in a threatening way by someone that could overpower him if he wanted to?
It is not a good idea to dismiss opinions you don't share when the experiences that have led to those opinions have never happened to you.
Hoops' dismissal of the possibility that no woman without a "victim mentality" could ever be uncomfortable with the items from my list a few pages back is exactly the same as me dismissing the possibility that a black person without a "persecution complex" could ever be upset by the idea that black people are more prone to commit crimes. It's not a legitimate dismissal because NOT HAVING EVER HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING BLACK, I don't know what it feels like and it wouldn't be wise for me to act like I do.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 8:40:00 GMT -5
Ah but there's the rub, what happens if a woman keeps telling me "wow, you've got such BIG hands". She's commenting on my hands, is that ok? What if I look at a blonde and smirk as ask "is it natural?". WHat's ok and what's not...that's the entire problem with your list of sentences. I have no idea what preceded them or how they were delivered. In fact only one mentions an instance of being asked repeatedly. Is it ok if a woman tells me my shirt fits my chest well? It's not a sexualized body part.
Do you really need a playbook, hoops? This question is so stupid, and you keep asking it as if it's NOT stupid. Use your common sense, man. If a woman looks uncomfortable when you're talking to her about your sex life, change the subject. If you think that commenting on how big her boobs look in that shirt might get you in trouble, keep that comment to yourself. If you wonder if a conversation is appropriate to have at work, save it for later.
This is not complicated stuff. I mean, if you can't pick up on social cues to the point where you really need every interpersonal interaction spelled out for you in a rulebook somewhere, you must be pretty socially inept.
Sexual harassment guidelines are not meant to be written in stone. Think of them as a cliff. If you don't want to fall over the edge of the cliff, maybe it's not the best idea to continually see how close you can come to the edge without falling off. Maybe you'd do better to just stay well away from the edge.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 26, 2011 8:47:55 GMT -5
I disagree. When we are at work, I want YOU to be very selective about what you say. I shouldn't have to spend my days listening to your non-stop tirades about things that have to do with any and all body parts and body parts functions.
And no, may be you shouldn't get fired, but someone has to shut you up.
Is that too much to ask?
Lena
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 8:50:17 GMT -5
There seems to be the double standard that women sexually harassing women is ok for some reason. That's not a judgement, i just hear it ALL the time...things men could never get away with saying to women. The big point is, none of those things ARE sexual harassment, they CAN BE sexual harassment. It's the only crime that is only committed when someone "feels like" they're hte victim of it.
I know I already said this, but it's worth repeating. The reason that women tend to be okay with certain comments from women that are unacceptable from men has nothing to do with a "double standard." It has to do with the fact that WOMEN DO NOT USUALLY PHYSICALLY THREATEN OTHER WOMEN.
Women tend to feel safe with other women. Why? Because while women have a pretty good chance of being sexually assaulted in their lifetime, the possibility that it's going to be a woman who assaults us is almost nonexistent. We don't fear physical danger from women because it's MEN that usually have the ability and inclination to CREATE PHYSICAL DANGER.
So yes, it's perfectly fine with me if my female receptionist discreetly points out to me that my bra strap is showing. And yes, that same comment from a man is going to make me feel incredibly uncomfortable. But it's not because I'm out to get the man just for being a man. It's because my fellow woman is no threat, and I can pretty safely assume that she is not implying anything nefarious, she's just trying to help me out.
Now, maybe a guy telling me the same thing is ALSO not implying anything nefarious and is just trying to help me out. However, the presumption of safety that I have with other women does not automatically extend to men. So comments about my undergarments from men do not have the same context of safety that they do from women.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 8:57:16 GMT -5
And if you think this is silly, ask yourself why a male doctor is not allowed to perform a breast exam on a woman without a female nurse present. The presumption of safety between women, and the LACK of such a presumption between a male and female, is so pervasive that it's an actual rule. When a male has a medical or professional reason to have a position of sexual power over a female, he is required to have another female present.
That rule certainly isn't because all male doctors are presumed to be boob-grabbing perverts. It exists to help women FEEL safer just as much as it actually helps keep women safer.
No matter how ridiculous you might think that is, it doesn't alter the fact that it evolved from a real need. It evolved from a real threat, a real problem. And real women were being really hurt before this rule was instituted.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 9:02:38 GMT -5
Right, because if we've learned anything, it's that lesser women like yourself continue to view women as victims. Knowing that you have a daughter I'd really expect more from you than to perpetuate the propaganda to her that women are natural victims. Though maybe you want her to be a victim, women are catty like that, they don't want better for other women, even their own daughters.
Actually, we do want better. I would hazard a guess that tbird would like a LOT better for her daughter than to grow up in a world where she has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped during her lifetime. I'd guess that she DOESN'T want to spend a lot of time teaching her daughter how to recognize harassment and assault so that, if it happens, she doesn't need to feel ashamed that she's upset about it. I'd guess she would love to teach her daughter that all men can automatically be trusted, that she is safe in the world, that she never has to worry about being threatened.
Unfortunately, that's not reality. It SHOULD be reality, and raising awareness about the "little things" that lead to it is part of what may someday make it more of a reality.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2011 9:15:25 GMT -5
There seems to be the double standard that women sexually harassing women is ok for some reason. That's not a judgement, i just hear it ALL the time...things men could never get away with saying to women. The big point is, none of those things ARE sexual harassment, they CAN BE sexual harassment. It's the only crime that is only committed when someone "feels like" they're hte victim of it. I know I already said this, but it's worth repeating. The reason that women tend to be okay with certain comments from women that are unacceptable from men has nothing to do with a "double standard." It has to do with the fact that WOMEN DO NOT PHYSICALLY THREATEN OTHER WOMEN. Women tend to feel safe with other women. Why? Because while women have a pretty good chance of being sexually assaulted in their lifetime, the possibility that it's going to be a woman who assaults us is almost nonexistent. We don't fear physical danger from women because it's MEN that have the ability to CREATE PHYSICAL DANGER. I appreciate you trying to fight the good fight for women, but you're sadly mistaken if you think women can't harass or threaten other women. Right now I work closely with a chronic toucher. I've made them aware that I don't like to be touched and yet they still manage to find a way to touch me. Guess what? She's female.
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Post by illinicheme on Apr 26, 2011 9:22:00 GMT -5
" It's very frustrating to find out that colleagues that you respected, and you thought respected you, are ranking your looks on a whiteboard somewhere." Frustrating yes. But you don't think women do the same thing in female-dominated jobs? The only difference is women are smart enough not to write it down on a whiteboard. I've worked at 2 jobs where it leaked that women had detailed and lengthy conversations about how "big" they thought each guy who worked with them was, and in the 2nd how many girls they thought each guy had slept with. The difference is, guess how many of those guys who found out went around crying to management about it? Not everyone still throws grade-school hissyfits because someone is talking about them in ways they don't like. If it isn't jeapordizing your safety or directly hindering your work...get over it. No one ever died because a guy spent an extra second checking out your ass when you walked by or because he told a dirty joke to his coworker that you overhead. Well, in the particular case I mentioned, it was actually other men who went to management about it. I gained quite a bit of respect for my male peers who put their necks on the line to defend a professional work environment. In general, I have a pretty thick skin and have never personally reported anything to management or HR. But I've certainly been made uncomfortable a few times. The lines of what constitutes harassment are not nearly as blurred as you're making it out to be. In the example you provided, that's absolutely unacceptable behavior that can create a hostile work environment. You would have been well within your rights to bring that behavior to the attention of management. The laws are designed to protect everyone.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 9:22:19 GMT -5
I hear you, moneyjenny. I didn't mean to imply that women never make other women feel unsafe or harassed - just that it's a lot more common to feel unsafe with men than with women, to the point where women are given more of a benefit of the doubt than men are, all other things being equal.
But I edited my post in a way that hopefully clarifies what I meant.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 26, 2011 9:30:54 GMT -5
Firebird, thank you for saying everything I wanted to say, much more eloquently than I would have.
I do think that many otherwise sensitive (hate that word, but don't know a better one) men have a blind spot to this behavior - though not maliciously. I've spent a lot of time pointing out to my DH that so many of the things he never has to think about as a 6'4" 250+ lb man are always in the back of my mind as a 5'2" 100ish lb woman. Things like "if I park my car in this corner of the parking garage, will I be in danger walking to it after work?" While I was in college, there were several reported rapes/sexual assaults on the dimly-lit path between the parking area and the dorms. Want to guess how many of the attackers were male?
I'm not someone who is afraid to go outside or sees sexual predators around every corner, but to deny that many women are able to be physically overpowered by the average man, and that this shouldn't somewhat influence their actions, is just ridiculous.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 9:33:21 GMT -5
One last thing for now:
I am not claiming that no one ever makes illegitimate sexual harassment complaints. I'm not claiming that every single woman who reports a man for inappropriate speech feels that her physical safety is being directly threatened.
I'm pointing out that inappropriate conduct in the workplace has been named as such for a reason. The whole idea behind these laws is that no one should have to feel unsafe. And the behaviors that can now get you disciplined are ALL behaviors that have the POTENTIAL to make people feel unsafe.
So if you think that a claim of sexual harassment is ridiculous, ask yourself if there's a chance that the behavior leading to it could have made someone feel unsafe. Maybe you'll learn something. There are all kinds of ways to create a hostile work environment, and these lines are not nearly as ambiguous as some of you would like to believe. You don't necessarily NEED to fully understand WHY a behavior makes a person feel unsafe, or even believe that it really does. You just need to accept that you've been doing something that you were told made someone else feel unsafe. You don't want to make people feel unsafe, right? So the best course of action is to simply knock it off even if you don't 100% understand WHY anyone would be so upset over whatever you did.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 26, 2011 10:05:14 GMT -5
Making someone feel threatened is assault- however, as arbitrary as that definition can be-- it's behavior that would cause a "reasonable person" (which rules out a lot of women right there ***TWEAK*** did you fall for it? You know you did!) to be apprehensive or fear for their life or physical well being. Unwanted touching is battery. When we shifted from what has traditionally been considered a reportable crime to "corporate policy" and potential civil legal liability to acts that could be as arbitrary as merely bothering some overly sensitive person, we introduced nothing short of CHAOS into the work place. Again, you won't catch me defending true harassing behavior, but I will state categorically that the vast majority of complaints of sexual harassment are trivial complaints leveled by people who are overly sensitive, have an agenda, or are just plain stupid. The complaint that sparked this thread is a perfect example. We know from the evidence provided that there's a lot more-- a LOT more-- to this story. This entire concept is flimsy, it adds uncertainty to the legal environment which adds time and money consuming challenges to companies that have nothing to do with business. In fact, an entire unnecessary, and useless profession "HR" was born virtually completely out of this sexual harassment nonsense. I would frankly subordinate the idea that there might be "legitimate" complaints to this: Virtually ANYONE who is determined to make a complaint of sexual harassment regardless of the evidence can make a complaint at any time and put the company and their fellow employees in jeopardy. That is an unacceptable reality, and the possiblity should be ELIMINATED, legitimate complainst be damned. Don't like your job? Quit. Birds of a feather will flock together-- sooner or later, you'll find a happy band of easily offended people that can't get any work done because they're too busy being offended. The rest of us will be about business, getting paid, and going home.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 26, 2011 10:22:31 GMT -5
Quote: but I will state categorically that the vast majority of complaints of sexual harassment are trivial complaints leveled by people who are overly sensitive, have an agenda, or are just plain stupid.
See, I disagree - and neither you nor Hoops has offered even the remotest shred of evidence that this is the case. How many women in this thread have said that they have been harassed at work - under the LEGAL definition of harassment - yet not reported it because of the negative career ramifications? I find the idea that many genuinely actionable cases are going unreported while the "vast majority" of reported cases are BS a bit unbelievable.
Also, while no *reasonable* woman would make a harassment complaint just for the hell of it, no *reasonable* man would purposely try to make a coworker feel sexually or physically threatened. Unreasonable people come in both genders, but that doesn't mean all the rules should be thrown out the window just because some (on both sides) use them to the detriment of others.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 10:34:01 GMT -5
I would frankly subordinate the idea that there might be "legitimate" complaints to this: Virtually ANYONE who is determined to make a complaint of sexual harassment regardless of the evidence can make a complaint at any time and put the company and their fellow employees in jeopardy. That is an unacceptable reality, and the possiblity should be ELIMINATED, legitimate complainst be damned. Don't like your job? Quit.
Virtually ANYONE who is determined to make their coworkers feel harassed regardless of gender can do so at any time with very little fear of repercussion as long as they're careful to make sure that the incidents can't be documented to any degree of certainty.
That is an unacceptable reality and the possibility should be ELIMINATED, false accusations be damned. Don't want to deal with a non-hostile work environment? Quit.
There, fixed for you.
It's nice that YOU would prefer to err on the side of burying legitimate complaints that are ACTIVELY HURTING WOMEN. I, for one, am quite pleased if we're actually moving in the direction of erring on the side of taking complaints seriously.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 10:38:44 GMT -5
Again, you won't catch me defending true harassing behavior, but I will state categorically that the vast majority of complaints of sexual harassment are trivial complaints leveled by people who are overly sensitive, have an agenda, or are just plain stupid. I would really like to believe that the majority of men understand that the definition of "true harassing behavior" is not necessarily the same as what they personally perceive to be "true harassing behavior." Believe it or not, Paul, certain behaviors make women feel unsafe even if you don't think they would make YOU feel unsafe! Liiiiiiiiightbulllllllb.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 26, 2011 10:39:58 GMT -5
It is interesting how clearly the genders have divided on the two points of view in this thread. Firebird, I thought your racial analogy was spot-on - I have no idea what it feels like to be black or Hispanic in America, and I'm certainly not going to invalidate someone else's feelings just because I, personally, have not had the same experience. Those of you who have never been female in the workplace - ever consider that those of us who ARE might have some idea what we're talking about? Or do we ALL have a victim complex?
Aware that this goes both ways - I won't pretend to know what it's like to worry about being slammed with a harassment complaint, or to feel as though I'm walking on eggshells (I don't think most men have to walk on eggshells - but you may FEEL that you do) around female coworkers.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 10:46:27 GMT -5
It is interesting how clearly the genders have divided on the two points of view in this thread. Firebird, I thought your racial analogy was spot-on - I have no idea what it feels like to be black or Hispanic in America, and I'm certainly not going to invalidate someone else's feelings just because I, personally, have not had the same experience. Those of you who have never been female in the workplace - ever consider that those of us who ARE might have some idea what we're talking about? Or do we ALL have a victim complex?
Privilege. It all comes down to privilege, which I realize is fighting words in many circles.
But it's the truth. We all have our blind spots; that's part of being human. However, being a self-aware person demands that you CHECK those blind-spots and find some appreciation for the idea that because something is a blind spot for you, BY DEFINITION that means you don't have the tightest grasp on how it actually works or what it actually feels like, and perhaps you should defer to those that do.
I do not know what it feels like to be a black person. So when a black person tells me something about their experience as a black person and I immediately dismiss it as them being "oversensitive," I am contributing to the culture that created that experience in the first place, the one that "others" them and makes them marginalized. I am contributing to the culture that silences them in the first place. I am ACTIVELY MAKING IT LESS SAFE for them to tell anyone who is not black about their experience as a black person.
I've gotten ten private messages since yesterday afternoon relating to this thread. All from women who wanted to tell me that they appreciate the things I've been saying but don't feel comfortable enough to speak up on their own because they have been silenced so many times before and they're sick and tired of shouting into the wind.
Most men do not know what it is like to feel sexually threatened in the workplace. Hoops, Dark and Paul clearly have absolutely no concept of what that could possibly feel like. And there's nothing wrong with that - being men, they can't exactly experience [ETA for clarity: what it feels like to be sexually threatened in the workplace as a woman] firsthand for a day. I don't fault them for not understanding, I fault them for not deferring to those of us that have dealt with being sexually harassed before, because we know more about it than they do and that should mean that our opinions carry more weight than theirs.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Apr 26, 2011 10:57:46 GMT -5
TBH, I've never understood the whole sleeping with coworkers thing. Coworkers are not hot, mainly because they're coworkers. "Oh yeah baby. Give me the rundown of those TPS reports again. Oh yeaaahhhhh."
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sil
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Post by sil on Apr 26, 2011 10:59:25 GMT -5
Knowing that you have a daughter I'd really expect more from you than to perpetuate the propaganda to her that women are natural victims
****************************** Havent read the whole post, but just adding my 2 cents for parents of high school kids (boys and girls) who have jobs. Make sure your kids understand what is and what is not appropriate behavior at the workplace so that they can defend themselves against harrassment (so that they do not become "victims")
The worst harrassment stories I've heard were from girls in high school who did not understand that they did not have to put up with this sort of carp from an adult manager.
Personally, when I was 16, I could have easily raised a harrassment suit against a manager, just because he complimented my shorts.....
....Situation was, I was wearing shorts under my skirt (required uniform) because the manager (about 40 years old, Id guess) liked to ask the female employees to gather stock from the upper shelves, while he held the ladder.
I quit the job after this happened to me, but I really wish I knew I could have filed a harrassment suit instead or quitting, so this wouldnt have happened to other kids.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 26, 2011 11:30:12 GMT -5
...:::"WWBG--your ideas of what a women does to be coy, could also be what a person does when they are nervous. You can't always tell from a person's body language.":::...
Therein could lie the problem. I know we're deviating from the real event here, but for discussion sake... Suppose the woman said "what can I do to keep my job" and she had a look that was not intended to be sexual. Suppose the supervisor in this case misinterpreted the look and thought he was being propositioned, and acted on it. The woman would argue that she did not proposition the supervisor, while the supervisor would argue that she did. And here we are back to he said/she said.
...:::"I don't think people are implying they do it for the fun of it, they do it because they're overly sensitive and looking for an excuse to feel harassed because that's today's culture...everyone's a victim. I think that attitude is far more prevalent than someone just doing it "for fun". Also probably less prevalent than people who do it as a form of revenge against someone.":::...
Or because they know its an easy payday. I could certainly see someone in need of money, or someone who was leaving anyway deciding to take the opportunity to try for a quick score. I am not saying this is the norm, but it is definitely a factor.
...:::"I can't even tell you how many personal details women share in all kinds of language at work.":::...
I've heard this can be true. Many of those MSN relationship articles hinted about stuff like this. I remember one in particular said something about how when your girlfriend's best friend looks at you and smiles, it is because she knows about the <pick any private issue or event>.
...:::"Not only do I THINK they're sexual harassment, they ARE sexual harassment.":::...
Hoops and Firebird could each be right depending on the workplace policy. I think the key difference (and this is actually very important and reasonable) is whether the woman has made an objection, and/or asked the person to stop. Based on the policy in my workplace, most of those comments (the ones that are not directly asking for something) while dancing the line, are not harassment UNTIL the woman says something like "you are offending me and it needs to stop".
Until the offended party actually speaks up to the offender and registers his/her discomfort, all is fair game. If the offended party tries to make a claim without having registered offense, I do not believe the claim would stand. However, once the offense has been registered, if the offender continues to make comments, then the offended party has a case and it would stand.
That seems pretty fair to me. My co-workers and I (both sexes) have discussed topics that could totally have been grounds for harassment. But since everyone was OK with it, and nobody was offended, there was no problem.
What I have the biggest problem with (and hoops may or may not agree) would be the situation where a guy could make a comment, and a woman could give act OK with it, but then basically get him sued and fired. Without that communication, you have no idea where you stand, and we will become a society of people who are afraid to open their mouths.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2011 11:44:02 GMT -5
Until the offended party actually speaks up to the offender and registers his/her discomfort, all is fair game. If the offended party tries to make a claim without having registered offense, I do not believe the claim would stand. However, once the offense has been registered, if the offender continues to make comments, then the offended party has a case and it would stand.
That seems pretty fair to me. My co-workers and I (both sexes) have discussed topics that could totally have been grounds for harassment. But since everyone was OK with it, and nobody was offended, there was no problem. I would agree, excepting that managers should be more careful because some people would be uncomfortable asking/telling a manager to stop because of the power difference. Also, I do not every think it is alright to be discussing your sex lives (in vivid detail), I would not tell the guy or girl to stop, for that I'm going to the manager to tell them to stop. I would not expect them to be fired, just warned for a first time though. I should not have to tell them talking about their sex lives are not ok. People (both men and women) need to use some common sense, why is it so hard not to talk about sex or sexual body parts at work?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 11:49:11 GMT -5
Havent read the whole post, but just adding my 2 cents for parents of high school kids (boys and girls) who have jobs. Make sure your kids understand what is and what is not appropriate behavior at the workplace so that they can defend themselves against harrassment (so that they do not become "victims")
The worst harrassment stories I've heard were from girls in high school who did not understand that they did not have to put up with this sort of carp from an adult manager.
Hoops, Dark, Paul, you wanted reasons why we should care about this? You wanted reasons why we should consider those "little things" harassment and teach people not to do them at work? Here is Exhibit A.
BECAUSE sexual harassment is so pervasive in this culture, and BECAUSE it is so often dismissed out of hand, what often happens is that someone does something that makes a woman feel unsafe, only she feels like she can't speak up because she'll be dismissed as oversensitive. Or, worse, she will be unsure that what the person did crossed a line at all - and then not only is she feeling like she can't report it, she has the cognitive dissonance of feeling upset about something and yet feeling like she has no right to feel upset about it.
The longer we put up with unacceptable behavior, the longer we encourage it and dismiss it as "not that big of a deal," the less safe we make the workplace environment for girls and women. The reason we draw lines in the sand is because without those lines, people are left wondering, "Hey, am I allowed to be upset about this? Am I allowed to ask him not to say that anymore? Am I allowed to report him for that since he won't stop even though I asked him? Am I going to get a reputation for being an oversensitive whiner if I report this?"
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Apr 26, 2011 11:51:05 GMT -5
I have been harassed at work once sexually and once because of my gender. I worked for my dad's road construction company in the summers while in college. I had a male co-worker (who didn't know my dad was one of the owners) ride with me to a job in a company truck. We arrived before anyone else and he started harassing me and telling me we should have a "quick f%#" before anyone else got to the job-site. When I said "NO" he continued to push the issue and asked if I'd give him a BJ instead. I got out of the vehicle and walked to the nearest building and waited until the rest of the crew showed up. Never again did I show up first to a job or allow anyone I didn't know to ride with me to a project. I didn't tattle on him (probably should have but didn't)- I told him later that day who I was and that for the sake of his job he needed to stay the eff away from me and work on a different crew than me.
In the military our senior NCO hated all white people and women. He was in charge of assigning chores to the junior enlisted during our "duty week". Each week two airmen were assigned to duties around the squadron building. He always did us in teams of two of the same gender. On the weeks it was guys they had to do nothing, on the weeks it was women we had to do things all week. BS stuff like scrubbing a shower in a 4th floor bathroom that hadn't been used in 10 years, painting the sidewalks, walking the perimeter of the parking lot picking up cigarette butts, etc. We had a normal 8 to 5 desk job that we would have to fit in during our day as well. None of the women in the squadron would speak up and they all complained to me. I finally went to the Col. to complain, detailed out all of the complaints of the other girls (this had been going on for months). The Col. tried to blow me off so I got all the girls to go into his office with me. The next day someone else was in charge of the Duty List and Sheila got re-assigned to Bird Detail. I had to spend the next 6 months riding around in a truck and looking for birds to warn the control tower about.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 11:52:55 GMT -5
Hoops and Firebird could each be right depending on the workplace policy. I think the key difference (and this is actually very important and reasonable) is whether the woman has made an objection, and/or asked the person to stop. Based on the policy in my workplace, most of those comments (the ones that are not directly asking for something) while dancing the line, are not harassment UNTIL the woman says something like "you are offending me and it needs to stop".
I agree with this to some extent, but you have to be careful. Some behaviors shouldn't be accepted whether anyone specifically objects or not. You know how in grade school, you're always encouraged to ask questions "because if you have a question, someone else probably has that same question?" Same thing here.
I'm known for being outspoken, and I usually get my way. So I haven't had too much of a problem making it known when I'm offended by someone's behavior, and usually it does stop once I make it known (that's also partially because I do pick these battles very carefully). But that's my personality - does someone with a less aggressive personality deserve to be harassed at work because she doesn't feel as comfortable as I do speaking my mind?
Relying on women to tell you when they're feeling unsafe is a catch-22. By definition, if they don't feel safe they certainly don't feel safe TELLING you that you're making them feel unsafe. That just makes them more vulnerable and gives you extra ammunition to use against them, should you be so inclined. That's why certain behaviors need to be off limits, FULL STOP, regardless of whether or not anyone objects.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 26, 2011 11:54:13 GMT -5
...:::"I'm pretty astounded you can't appreciate the difference, although I know I shouldn't be at this point.":::...
I fear that the differences continue to get more and more blurry until we are in a situation where a haircut or tan compliment could indeed be viewed as sexual harassment.
...:::"What is NOT fine is CONTINUING to discuss your sex life around a woman who has explicitly told you that she is uncomfortable with such talk.":::...
Well said. As I posted previously, the offended party speaking up is the CRUCIAL line between "oversensitive and ridiculous" and "valid harassment".
...:::"I don't know, but whether or not it makes somebody uncomfortable is a pretty stupid line in my opinion.":::...
Exactly... the lines will continue to blur. ANYTHING could make someone else uncomfortable. What if DF and I were TTC and failing... could I report a pregnant woman who wouldn't shut up about the joys of motherhood as harassing me?
...:::"Well, for starters, there is almost never any professional reason to be alone with someone that you work with and have had awkward personal interactions with in the past.":::...
Thats just not true at all.
...:::""If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, this stuff won't happen to you."":::...
That did not seem to hold true in the earlier example of the engineer who was talking about his leatherman tool, and who had his whole department back him up.
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The J
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Post by The J on Apr 26, 2011 11:56:41 GMT -5
Ok, I've stayed out of this thread, but this statement is pure and utter bullshit. Men can feel what it's like to be sexually threatened in the workplace. To say otherwise is simply ignorant.
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