The J
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Post by The J on Apr 26, 2011 16:22:23 GMT -5
Why? Let's assume it wasn't a prolonged stare, but more of a quick glance. Why did he deserve the transfer/warning?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Apr 26, 2011 16:23:46 GMT -5
I've been trying to stay out of this conversation. I really have, but I think some actual information about how sexual harrassment is handled in work situations would be of use, vs people operating on fear (which is what both firebird's dad and dark honor are operating on).
Except in the most egregious cases - such as physcially grabbing someone or a boss calling an employee in to the office and saying "f* me or your fired" (or a boss offering/agreeing to sexual favors in return for changing the annual review), a PATTERN has to be established. And that is why companies conduct INVESTIGATIONS.
The case that started this thread was straight up quid pro quo sexual harrassment, regardless of whether the boss or the employee first brought up sexual favors because of the power imbalance. The investigation was started because an annual review was altered without talking to the employee's direct supervisor. That is clue one that something wrong is happening. As soon as the investigation revealed that the boss and the employee had pictures of each other's good bits on their phones, they have all the proof they need that he was guilty of quid pro quo sexual harrassment, and are justified in firing him. Period.
In less obvious situations, which most cases are, HR normally does two things. The first is to seperate the two people involved. This can mean administrative leave for the accused, but most often means simply moving one of the two people to a different department. Which gets moved really depends on which one it is easier to move, not on whether they are accused or accuser. And now, HR begins an investigation talking to other people who interacted with the two principals in the harrassment case. HR uses the reasonable person standard (not the frightened little girl standard or the frat boy standard, but the reasonable person standard) to help determine whether comments or actions constituted harrassment and were a one time offense or a regular pattern.
If you, as a male, were to be fired for complimenting a woman's hair because she also claimed you were staring at her that day, you would have legal recourse against the company for unjust dismissal. However, if you have complimented a woman, and she has asked you not to (regardless of what its about) and you continue to do so (creating a pattern)- that's harrassment, sexual or otherwise. If it really is innocuous comments and she just doesn't like you, you are not likely to be fired. Instead, one of you will be transferred and life will go on. There must be a consistent pattern of purposefully creating a hostile work environment before HR will do anything.
There was a thread here (I don't remember what it was called) by a woman who had a co-worker (in a different state) who operated up the chain from her specifically pull her cases, even when they weren't assigned to him, made comments about how she should leave her BF and be with him, even made some comments that could be considered veiled threats. When she asked him to stop contacting her unless he needed to discuss a specific case, he ignored her threats. This is called a consistent (and verifieable) pattern. Even though they were seperated by significant distance, and therefore she could not be physically harmed by him, what he was doing constituted harrassment. She was afraid to take it to HR because by pulling her cases, this guy had direct control over her income stream. And that's the problem. That's what we want to stop. What the man was doing (at least according to the side of the story we heard) was text book sexual harrassment. And sadly, the woman's fear that her income would be harmed and no one at work would take her side seriously, is also text book. The thing is, if she had reported it, even if the company decided his actions weren't worth firing him over, they could easily have said - you no longer handle any of her cases. She would have felt safer, no one's work would have been effected, and if he then repeated the same pattern with another person, they would have record of the issue and could act on it.
I would suggest that people who are concerned about this re-read their company's policy on what constitutes sexual harrassment/hostile work environments. We once had an employee complain that our entire team was creating a hostile work environment because we planned a team building session at a meeting she missed (she was out sick that day) and she felt ganged up on at the team building session because she hadn't realized what it was going to be about before hand and the rest of us did. HR investigated, determined there was nothing to her complaints, and told her so. No disciplinary action occurred on any side of the situation.
I think when sexual harrassment suits firt really started coming out of the woodwork, many companies over reacted due to the huge settlements they were having to pay. Now, most companies would rather not fire anyone, they'd rather difuse the situation through different means. When professional adults act like professional adults, there tend to be very few problems. Its when one person decides to try and exploit a power imbalance (real or perceived) that issues occur.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 16:26:09 GMT -5
Why? Let's assume it wasn't a prolonged stare, but more of a quick glance. Why did he deserve the transfer/warning?
If it was a quick glance, how in the world did she notice him doing it?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 26, 2011 16:34:40 GMT -5
I've been trying to stay out of this conversation. I really have, but I think some actual information about how sexual harrassment is handled in work situations would be of use, vs people operating on fear (which is what both firebird's dad and dark honor are operating on). You call it fear I call it healthy cautiousness. In the world I live in the women is the one most likely to get the benefit of the doubt not the guy she accuses.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 16:35:00 GMT -5
When professional adults act like professional adults, there tend to be very few problems. Its when one person decides to try and exploit a power imbalance (real or perceived) that issues occur.
Thank you.
You call it fear I call it healthy cautiousness. In the world I live in the women is the one most likely to get the benefit of the doubt not the guy she accuses.
In the world I live in, it's the other way around (all other things being equal).
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 26, 2011 16:35:33 GMT -5
If it was a quick glance, how in the world did she notice him doing it? She turns around at roughly the same time he looks over. People are predators after all, our eyes are drawn to movement.
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The J
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Post by The J on Apr 26, 2011 16:38:02 GMT -5
If it was a quick glance, how in the world did she notice him doing it? She turns around at roughly the same time he looks over. Exactly.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Apr 26, 2011 16:47:53 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, how many men have you seen fired for exactly the scenario that you say could happen at any moment? Either you work in the strictest place on earth or you're exaggerating. We had one guy put on notice and transferred because a woman who shared an office with him said she caught him looking at her butt while she was changing her shoes. She never claimed that he even said anything to her at all, or that it was an ongoing thing. She was bending over, turned around and supposedly caught him looking. Made her feel too uncomfortable to share an office with him, so he was transferred to another project and put on notice. He quit a few months later. I don't work in HR, maybe there was more to the story, but then he probably would have been fired. On the one hand if he was staring at her ass, I guess he deserved it. If he was looking in that general direction, but she thought he was looking at her ass, he got a pretty raw deal. He was transferred. That's pretty common practice. He was put on notice the reason that he was transferred (ie a warning) so that he could know to be extra careful. He wasn't demoted or fired. Months later, he chose to quit. For all you know, he was planning on quitting earlier, but decided to try out the new project first. Or maybe he started looking once there was an issue because he didn't want to be on guard all the time, or maybe he felt forced out. Unless he told you the reason he quit, its all just speculation. People leave jobs all the time for all different reasons and correlation is not causation, no matter how tempting it seems. But this seems like a pretty normal policy to me. I have no problems with you deciding then that you'll keep your work interactions with women strictly work related (though in some circumstances, that can lead to hostile work enviroment charges, too). In general, except for a very few people, I like to keep my work conversations work related, too. I'm just saying that its really unlikely you will ever be fired for complimenting a woman on her new haircut, unless you're running your fingers through said hair at the time, or finishing the comment with "Wanna f*"
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 26, 2011 16:56:26 GMT -5
But this seems like a pretty normal policy to me. Exactly, it's her word against his, but the company transfers him to another project, everyone starts whispering about what he did wrong, and it's pretty logical to figure at least some of the women in the company are going to decide he's a sleazebag and not want to work with him. But I'm being paranoid by thinking that as a man I have to be on guard at work whenever interacting with the opposite sex. Like you said, I don't know why he quit. Maybe he was already thinking of leaving. I didn't keep in touch with the guy. If he was innocent of the original peeping I could see how he felt he got a raw deal though. I have no problems with you deciding then that you'll keep your work interactions with women strictly work related (though in some circumstances, that can lead to hostile work enviroment charges, too). Eh... I'd rather take my chances being the antisocial weirdo, instead of the guy who was just joking, treating her like one of the guys, or involved in the consensual relationship that goes bad.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 17:00:47 GMT -5
Exactly, it's her word against his, and the company transfers him to another project, everyone starts whispering about what he did wrong, and it's pretty logical to figure at least some of the women in the company are going to decide he's a sleazebag and not want to work with him.
Not necessarily. These incidents don't get printed for the company newsletter. How would anyone know anything beyond the fact that "oh, Jim got transferred"?
Besides, according to shanendoah, companies usually transfer the person that was easiest to transfer; it's not based on the merit of the case. So it could just as easily have been Susan who got transferred instead of Jim.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 26, 2011 17:02:10 GMT -5
How would anyone know anything beyond the fact that "oh, Jim got transferred"? Nobody gossips where you work? Seriously?
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Post by ty on Apr 26, 2011 17:05:21 GMT -5
Does every topic on the boards have to become a battle field for everyone. We are here to express one another's opinions. If you do not like what one has to say, skip over it and move on.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 17:10:33 GMT -5
Nobody gossips where you work? Seriously?
Over transfers? No. Transfers are common.
And honestly, if I was friends with the woman and she told me that she "got Jim transferred" after she caught him staring at her ass, I would most likely think that she had overreacted and feel sorry for Jim. Unless there was something else going on, like that Jim had done this before or he said something sexual to her while he was doing it or whatever.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 17:11:46 GMT -5
Does every topic on the boards have to become a battle field for everyone. We are here to express one another's opinions. If you do not like what one has to say, skip over it and move on.
I like your new avatar much better, Kreepy. The bug is cute. I used to have to read your posts really fast and not look too hard at those gaping eye sockets ;D
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Post by ty on Apr 26, 2011 17:17:41 GMT -5
Does every topic on the boards have to become a battle field for everyone. We are here to express one another's opinions. If you do not like what one has to say, skip over it and move on.I like your new avatar much better, Kreepy. The bug is cute. I used to have to read your posts really fast and not look too hard at those gaping eye sockets ;D
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 26, 2011 17:19:59 GMT -5
I got written up for sexual harassment based on a joke in an email I sent to a coworker that this sorority girl was easy on the eyes so the people in our department may work with her better than myself on a task we have. Probably not the best thing to say but I got full complaints from our highly sensitive HR manager and threats of firing from her for that. A simple "strider, please don't say that." would have sufficed.
No previous complaints or warnings. The girl is my friend on facebook and she heard the comment and didn't care at all. It was just about an entirely oversensitive HR manager looking to find trouble.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 26, 2011 17:23:01 GMT -5
Over transfers? No. Transfers are common. This wasn't a normal transfer though, it was a juicy scandal since he was transferred over a sexual harassment complaint. People were probably talking about it before he'd even had a chance to get his stuff from his old desk.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 17:24:36 GMT -5
I got written up for sexual harassment based on a joke in an email I sent to a coworker that this sorority girl was easy on the eyes so the people in our department may work with her better than myself on a task we have. Probably not the best thing to say but I got full complaints from our highly sensitive HR manager and threats of firing from her for that. A simple "strider, please don't say that." would have sufficed.
Agreed. That was an overreaction, and I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm glad you didn't lose your job over it.
OTOH, now you know the kind of thing that can get you into trouble - and silly or not, that was a good thing to learn early so that it never has to happen again.
By the way, this is NOT what I would've said if your comment to your coworker was more along the lines of "I think the boss wants to sleep with you and that's why you're on this project." If you had said that, I'd agree with the action your HR manager took even if your coworker still didn't care. Still wouldn't have thought you deserved to be fired over it, but the stern warning you received would have been much more appropriate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2011 17:35:50 GMT -5
I'm going to teach my daughter the difference between carrying herself like a bride to be, and carrying herself like a whore, and strongly encourage the former.what if she doesn't want to get married or is a lesbian? No marriage? Options are nun, and whore. Lesbian? I'll wait until she's a toddler and ask her. I think she'd know by now, though... www.lifesitenews.com/news/sex-change-for-10-year-old-boy-ok-says-australian-judge/That is transgender not lesbian.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 17:44:57 GMT -5
That is transgender not lesbian.Yay, you're back I doubt Paul knows the difference. After all, HE is male and HE knew that HE was male even when he was THREE YEARS OLD, so no one else could have possibly had a different experience in any way. Unless they were, you know, total FREAKS or something
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2011 17:53:58 GMT -5
Strider, if you were my friend I would have yelled at you/smacked your arm (if we had that relationship), of course that would get you in trouble with HR, especially via email (aka written proof). It is not professional, don't say it at work and especially don't put it on paper. And I would be mad, not because of the comment (though as the girl I would be annoyed, my looks should not affect my job) but because you should know you will get in trouble and I would not want that. ETA: Hey Firebird, yea, I had to run an errand.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 26, 2011 18:10:53 GMT -5
Yes, you have to be CAREFUL with email - you never know who is being blind-copied from the other side. I think Strider's example (minor transgression, warning, getting over it) is much more typical of sexual harassment complaints than the example put forth by WCP/Dark/Hoops et. al. of a man complimenting a woman's haircut with completely innocent intent and getting canned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2011 18:14:43 GMT -5
Yes, you have to be CAREFUL with email - you never know who is being blind-copied from the other side. I think Strider's example (minor transgression, warning, getting over it) is much more typical of sexual harassment complaints than the example put forth by WCP/Dark/Hoops et. al. of a man complimenting a woman's haircut with completely innocent intent and getting canned. Probably, but if he was my friend I still would have hit him for being a dummy and saying that at work.... and providing them documentation while he was at it, too!
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 26, 2011 18:23:38 GMT -5
I've been trying to stay out of this conversation. I really have, but I think some actual information about how sexual harrassment is handled in work situations would be of use That was a pretty informative post, thanks.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Apr 26, 2011 18:34:13 GMT -5
Perception has a lot to do with sexual harassment, and it isn't always fair. Companies should have the ability though to regulate workplace culture in the way they see fit. If that means that people make fewer jokes or are less likely to hang out with each other after work (for example) that should be their decision. It is hard to get it right all the time though.
I had an office in graduate school my first year next to someone who is now a close friend. I would come by and say 'Hi' every day for a few minutes because I didn't know anyone and I wanted to be friendly. I later found out that she thought I was interested in her and had even told her advisor that she thought I wanted to be with her even though I knew she was engaged. When she found out that I don't date the ladies, she was really apologetic and everything changed. What seemed to be kind of unusual for her if I was straight was perfectly fine if not. I don't understand what I could have done to make her uncomfortable in any way, but it really was all in her perception of my intentions rather than my actions.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 26, 2011 18:57:44 GMT -5
I'm over it now. It was a stupid move and I shouldn't have said it. Lesson learned. All stuff not relating to work is offline now so it's hard to prove. I threw myself into my job more. Even my boss thought it was weak sauce. Anyways I just wanted to provide a written example to differentiate the two extremes that seem to be going on in this thread.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 26, 2011 18:59:22 GMT -5
I just felt that the punishment didn't fit the crime.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 26, 2011 19:23:14 GMT -5
"No - really. How many complaints have been made by these "natural victims" you work with? I've got a few bucks riding on this......."
Zero, I don't talk to women at work unless absolutely necessary. I realize how emotionally fragile women are and don't want to get caught up in their victim mentalities. I don't respond to questions like "what did you do this weekend" or "what are you doing tonight". I respond with "you look nice today" with "thank you" but never reciprocating compliments. No "did you get a haircut" or "I like your (insert article of clothing or accessory)".
Of course every one of my evaluations turns out the same, great review followed by "if anything, you need to be more social and friendly. Talk to people about their weekends, talk about what you did, ask them what they did, etc". Night and day with male and female bosses. Female boss evaluation is always followed by how I need to be social and friendly, how i need to chit chat and get to know people on a personal level. Every male boss has the "you sit at your desk and work, you don't get caught up in the chit chat...smart move". Men understand it, women don't. Women trounce around saying whatever they like with no fear that there's any mistaking their chit chat because women see other women as harmless...and they see every man as someone who just can't wait to get them alone to rape them.
It's funny how the same women who take the "you should side with us because you don't know what it's like to be a woman and be harassed" seem to ignore the idea that "you should side with us because you have no idea what it's like to be a man dealing with women who see themselves as victims so much they invent things in their own mind to make it true".
It's sad how blatant sexism against men is now the new standard. It's like women WANT to paint themselves as inferior so that people will support them as the underdog. I guess I kind of expected more from women on YM who purport to be strong independent women. I guess talk is cheap.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 26, 2011 19:37:16 GMT -5
"How would anyone know anything beyond the fact that "oh, Jim got transferred"? "
Because the next time someone brings up Jim in her presence she launches into the story about what a creepy pervert he was.
A girl I used to be friends with got a guy transferred because they sat at desks somewhat facing one another. If they'd turned their heads 45 degrees they'd be looking at one another. I sat behind him. Every time she asked me a question she'd lean over her desk and start talking showing LOTS of cleavage. Apparently her "Hey" would draw his attention, and she didn't like the fact that he'd look up when she said it, see her chest, and look away smiling. Ok so it makes you uncomfortable, it's not as if he could help smiling when someone is practically screaming "hey" in his face and then practically flashing him. I talked to her after it happened, she admitted he never stared, he never made any comments, he'd look up because that's the natural thing to do, then he'd turn away. She just didn't like the fact that he smiled because "he's gross, I don't want him thinking about my boobs". The logical solution is "well then don't wear a shirt that shows them, don't bend over right in front of him, don't make loud noises to get his attention when they're exposed". Of course we had a female boss at the time...so he got transferred because he smiled. A month later he was laid off during a round of downsizing because he was the "new guy" in the department, and so first to go. He wouldn't have been on the cutting block had he stayed in our department.
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Post by illinicheme on Apr 26, 2011 19:39:42 GMT -5
I'm failing to understand how it is difficult to exchange pleasantries with colleagues about the weekend or the weather or whatever, without it veering into harassment territory. Seriously - who is so incapable of small talk that they can only think of sexist, racist, and/or political things to say?
Is it really so damn difficult to have the following exchange:
"Good morning, hoops. How was your weekend?"
"Fine, Mary. Thank you for asking. I hope you enjoyed yours too. Have you heard back from QA regarding the meeting agenda for tomorrow?"
"Yes, I just got off the phone with them. I'll circulate the information via email within the hour."
"Excellent. Thank you!"
By that point, you've finished filling your coffee cup or whatever and can retreat to your office. It's not rocket surgery for chrissakes.
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