hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 26, 2011 19:54:44 GMT -5
I'm failing to understand how it is difficult to exchange pleasantries with colleagues about the weekend or the weather or whatever, without it veering into harassment territory. Seriously - who is so incapable of small talk that they can only think of sexist, racist, and/or political things to say? Is it really so damn difficult to have the following exchange: "Good morning, hoops. How was your weekend?" "Fine, Mary. Thank you for asking. I hope you enjoyed yours too. Have you heard back from QA regarding the meeting agenda for tomorrow?" "Yes, I just got off the phone with them. I'll circulate the information via email within the hour." "Excellent. Thank you!" By that point, you've finished filling your coffee cup or whatever and can retreat to your office. It's not rocket surgery for chrissakes. Because real world does not behave like a sitcom. We're not talking about coffee. We're talking about people coming over to my cubicle for the express intent of having a conversation about our personal lives. "Seriously - who is so incapable of small talk that they can only think of sexist, racist, and/or political things to say?" This is the thing the women on this thread seem to not grasp...it's not about saying anything wrong, it's how anyone who happens to overhear it might massively misconstrue anything said and turn it into a situation where they are hte victim. It's not as if I don't respond at all, I respond with "fine" or "nothing". You clearly don't understand since you're not a man. We have to worry that we can't even look at you wrong or smile in the wrong way. My BOSS who is a woman will come over and want to talk about my weekend, or my upcoming wedding. "Oh where are you going on a honeymoon, oh my honeymoon we went to so and so, but it's not like you'll see too many sights, you'll be in your hotel room too much for that". I work with women who are so accustomed to spilling out every random detail or thought in their mind that I have to do anything I can to simply avoid having a personal conversation with them". "I hope you enjoyed yours too" is just an invitation to them to start ramblign on and on about their own lives (and really even saying "fine" is an invitation if I bother to even look in their direction). I can't count how many times I've heard "oh that shirt looks great on you, your boobs look so big in it", "Have you lost weight, your butt looks great"...all women to other women...so obviously the conversation doesn't bother them. But corporate policy is still that men cannot stand at a woman's desk and talk to her because he might be able to see down her shirt.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 26, 2011 20:01:58 GMT -5
"I'm failing to understand how it is difficult to exchange pleasantries with colleagues about the weekend or the weather or whatever, without it veering into harassment territory."
Ask every woman I've ever worked with. I have no issue talking to men at work...because they're interested in exactly that...exchanging pleasantries.
Let me recall some of the things I've heard in the past week:
A coworker talking about how it's almost bikini weather and talking about needing a new one because her boobs seem to be getting bigger. Coworker talking about pumping milk in the conference room downstairs and how it's so nice because otherwise her nipples get so sore. Coworker asking if the fiancee and I are going to try to have kids after the wedding, and encouraging us to do so because "trying without birth control is so much fun". Coworker finding out my fiancee and I sleep in separate rooms in the same house and asking "how do you decide which room to have fun in". Asking where we're going on honeymoon. "Nowhere". ANd responding what a good idea that is, since we'd just spend the week "doing it" anyways.
I'm sure there are plenty more. Which is why the less I say, and the less opportunity I give them to say anything, the better.
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Post by illinicheme on Apr 26, 2011 20:06:12 GMT -5
I guess my world just isn't that complicated. We're all educated adults, and we're all capable of having normal and respectful conversations with each other. I guess I'm lucky that I work with the men I work with, and not you. If none of them would talk to me unless they absolutely had to, it would be pretty darn difficult to get anything done. (At least 80% of the people I deal with on a day-to-day basis are men.) For what it's worth, men stand at my desk and talk to me about work all the time and it doesn't bother me. (But then again, it's so damn cold in our building all the time that I'm usually wearing a heavy fleece, so it's not like there is anything to see down anyway.)
If your work environment is so toxic and terrible, perhaps you should look around for other opportunities. Life is too short to go around hating everyone around you. (ETA: I don't think the behavior you're describing is normal. I've worked at three different companies, and none of then were even remotely like that. Perhaps it's a small office with a bad culture?)
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Post by ty on Apr 26, 2011 20:10:21 GMT -5
That is transgender not lesbian.Yay, you're back I doubt Paul knows the difference. After all, HE is male and HE knew that HE was male even when he was THREE YEARS OLD, so no one else could have possibly had a different experience in any way. Unless they were, you know, total FREAKS or something
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 26, 2011 21:02:06 GMT -5
Hoops, that does seem like an atypical work environment, though it might vary by industry. The AAs outside my office do plenty of inane chatting/gossiping I attempt to tune out, but most of it is family or kid-related, or something really boring like their flower gardens. I have yet to be subject to any suggestive comments or overhear someone remarking on their own/others' body parts or functions... it sounds like you are the unfortunate victim of a perfect storm of TMI.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Apr 26, 2011 21:22:37 GMT -5
No marriage? Options are nun, and whore. wow paul.. seriously?? are you telling me that you were a virgin when you married? or that you had minimal sex until that point? as for the general topic, all i can say is that i would have been fired at least 100 times by now... as would have my coworkers. in my IT world, i have typically worked on teams where i am the only female among 3-5 guys. and you know what? we all get to know each other on a personal level, and we discuss anything and *everything* - including sex .. perhaps the difference is that we trust each other.. and do socialize on occasion outside of work. i don't know. i will say it didn't "just happen" one day.. but when you work with the same people day in and day out, 12 hrs a shift, you get to know them...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 26, 2011 21:39:10 GMT -5
I guess my world just isn't that complicated. We're all educated adults, and we're all capable of having normal and respectful conversations with each other. I guess I'm lucky that I work with the men I work with, and not you. If none of them would talk to me unless they absolutely had to, it would be pretty darn difficult to get anything done. (At least 80% of the people I deal with on a day-to-day basis are men.) For what it's worth, men stand at my desk and talk to me about work all the time and it doesn't bother me. (But then again, it's so damn cold in our building all the time that I'm usually wearing a heavy fleece, so it's not like there is anything to see down anyway.) If your work environment is so toxic and terrible, perhaps you should look around for other opportunities. Life is too short to go around hating everyone around you. (ETA: I don't think the behavior you're describing is normal. I've worked at three different companies, and none of then were even remotely like that. Perhaps it's a small office with a bad culture?) Thank you, illichineme. Very well said, and not just in this post.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 26, 2011 23:23:30 GMT -5
I got written up for sexual harassment based on a joke in an email I sent to a coworker that this sorority girl was easy on the eyes so the people in our department may work with her better than myself on a task we have. Probably not the best thing to say but I got full complaints from our highly sensitive HR manager and threats of firing from her for that. A simple "strider, please don't say that." would have sufficed. No previous complaints or warnings. The girl is my friend on facebook and she heard the comment and didn't care at all. It was just about an entirely oversensitive HR manager looking to find trouble. It is the job of the HR representative or manager to represent the best interests of the company. The HR rep roll is not to be the employee or manager's friend. I know- I was an HR rep for many years and my job was to protect the company from lawsuits. And if it meant putting the fear of God into an employee to get them to stop whatever they are doing, then that is what we did.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 26, 2011 23:26:15 GMT -5
But this seems like a pretty normal policy to me. Exactly, it's her word against his, but the company transfers him to another project, everyone starts whispering about what he did wrong, and it's pretty logical to figure at least some of the women in the company are going to decide he's a sleazebag and not want to work with him. But I'm being paranoid by thinking that as a man I have to be on guard at work whenever interacting with the opposite sex. Like you said, I don't know why he quit. Maybe he was already thinking of leaving. I didn't keep in touch with the guy. If he was innocent of the original peeping I could see how he felt he got a raw deal though. I have no problems with you deciding then that you'll keep your work interactions with women strictly work related (though in some circumstances, that can lead to hostile work enviroment charges, too). Eh... I'd rather take my chances being the antisocial weirdo, instead of the guy who was just joking, treating her like one of the guys, or involved in the consensual relationship that goes bad. I was the anti-social weirdo simply because I'm an anti-social weirdo in corporate environments. Though, it did have side benefits like never being accused of stupid sh** because I never put enough words together in a row to allow a misinterpretation. At a big company, I may as well be on mars. The environment is a miraculous blend of artificial, arbitrary, and downright stupid. It was rare for me-- and mind you, I did this for 14 years-- to make an obvious connection between my job and how it fit into the big picture to make the company money.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 26, 2011 23:32:16 GMT -5
I got written up for sexual harassment based on a joke in an email I sent to a coworker that this sorority girl was easy on the eyes so the people in our department may work with her better than myself on a task we have. Probably not the best thing to say but I got full complaints from our highly sensitive HR manager and threats of firing from her for that. A simple "strider, please don't say that." would have sufficed. No previous complaints or warnings. The girl is my friend on facebook and she heard the comment and didn't care at all. It was just about an entirely oversensitive HR manager looking to find trouble. It is the job of the HR representative or manager to represent the best interests of the company. The HR rep roll is not to be the employee or manager's friend. I know- I was an HR rep for many years and my job was to protect the company from lawsuits. And if it meant putting the fear of God into an employee to get them to stop whatever they are doing, then that is what we did. No, the HR representives job is to be rent-seeker-in-chief. The best interests of the company would be to abolish arbitrary rules, and abolish the need for HR. How can employees be productive if they company has to make sure they're all on pins and needles all day long lest someone file a frivolous lawsuit, or EEOC complaint? And what does all this mess cost in productivity and real dollars? Whatever the costs, it's not worth the perceived benefits.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 26, 2011 23:38:52 GMT -5
Okay palmbeachpaul-you ALWAYS seem to know what is best..
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 26, 2011 23:46:21 GMT -5
Okay palmbeachpaul-you ALWAYS seem to know what is best.. Well, where I grew up in Cook County-- we had a name for people that were only looking out for the best interests of your business: protection racket. And that's basically what HR is. It's an entire industry set up to "protect the best interests of your company" and if you don't have one...guess what happens? So, what's the difference? There isn't a difference if you ask me.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 27, 2011 0:34:49 GMT -5
Last fall, my husband accepted a contracting position. After 3 months, his mother called him to inform him of some family drama regarding his brother. After hearing the news, my husband mentioned to his mother (on the phone) that he would have reacted a little "differently" (read: more violently) if someone had tried the harass his family. His phone call was overheard 4 cubicles away by a woman, who then felt unsafe. 4 days later, my husband was terminated. Does this woman have a right to feel safe at work? Absolutely. My husband is a big guy (6'4"). However, he had spoken to this woman only once or twice at the coffee machine in the 3 months he had worked there. Do I think she was being "overly sensitive"? Why do her feelings trump everything else? Telephus without knowing what he actually said its hard for me to judge if she was over-reacting. I really doubt all he said was "I would have reacted differently than my brother" in a grimacing tone. If he said something like "Mom, I would have killed that bitch if she had done that to me, etc." There might be something to worry about. I've never worked at a place that one comment was so bad that someone got fired over it. Where I've worked its taken at least two occurrences or more for something to happen. Does your husband have a tendency to use violent language? I've seen any questionable incident used as a way to fire a contractor they were already planning to get rid of. Perhaps they were planning to get rid of him and used this as their excuse or documented reason.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 11:29:44 GMT -5
This is the thing the women on this thread seem to not grasp...it's not about saying anything wrong, it's how anyone who happens to overhear it might massively misconstrue anything said and turn it into a situation where they are hte victim.
You go to work. You talk to your coworkers about their lives. If they launch into an inappropriate description of their sex life, you say, "Hey, I'd rather not hear about that please" or even just "TMI, TMI!" in a joking way. They will probably stop at that point, and if they don't, then you should report them.
You do not ogle anyone in such an obvious way that it makes them uncomfortable. You do not volunteer things about your own life that could be misconstrued ("my wife and I went to the beach, the weather was lovely" is never going to get you fired; "my wife and I banged on the beach, the weather was lovely" just might).
You treat your female coworkers like actual people who are different from one another sometimes rather than deciding that they are all scheming, lying bitches and treating them as such.
If you DO make an inappropriate comment, you apologize. Then you refrain from doing it again.
If someone in the office seems to have a proclivity for drama, you avoid non-professional subjects with that one person (you do NOT have to stop talking to EVERYONE, just that one person).
If all else fails, you can totally refrain from ever remarking on anything non-work related but you will probably come across as an antisocial jerk and it's really, really not necessary.
There are some women who lie, and there are some men who sexually harass, and vice versa. We're not all the same and it's not a good idea to generalize about an entire gender based on your experiences with one or even a few members.
Speak up if you don't like hearing about your coworker's breast enlargement. She shouldn't be talking about that in the workplace. But if you don't speak up, don't feel all special and persecuted because you were tough enough not to make a big stink. You had every right to say how you felt, and you chose not to do so. If you expect women to speak up when they feel uncomfortable rather than hoping the harassment magically stops on its own, you damn well better hold yourself to the same standard.
Sexual harassment laws are in place to protect people. No, they're not perfect but they're worth having, and they're worth refining.
If you've never had experience with sexual harassment, don't judge the experiences of those that have. Do not assume all such experiences were bullshit just because you heard of one that was.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 11:39:38 GMT -5
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 27, 2011 11:43:07 GMT -5
Maybe we should go back to how Sparta was run. Spartans were punished not for the deeds they committed, but for getting caught. There was also no such thing as upward mobility, only downward mobility.
Spartans.... prepare for glory!
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The J
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Post by The J on Apr 27, 2011 12:38:34 GMT -5
Warning: mind reading required!
How am I supposed to know exactly what looks, in what manner, are going to make someone else uncomfortable? Sure, I can go with my definition of ogling, and my definition of uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean that the person who is potentially going to report me is using the same definition.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 27, 2011 12:56:13 GMT -5
Maybe we should go back to how Sparta was run. Spartans were punished not for the deeds they committed, but for getting caught. There was also no such thing as upward mobility, only downward mobility. Spartans.... prepare for glory! They also had to crawl in the window at night and rape their wives. Not a romantic bunch.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 27, 2011 12:56:59 GMT -5
It probably matters a great deal that Telephus's hubby was a contractor. While it is certainly possible that he told his wife a different story or that his de facto employers wanted him gone for other reason, non-employees tend to receive brutal treatment when complaints pertaining to sexual harassment are levied against them. The fact that they are not employees of the company fielding the complaint has no bearing on that company's potential liability. If contractors, vendors, or employees of another company sharing the same building are creating a hostile work environment the company fielding the complaint remains potentially liable. On the other hand, since they are not employees, there's minimal risk of a wrongful termination complaint.
I've seen at least one person removed from a workplace on a flimsy first complaint that was poorly investigated. Usually they lose their job. The host company wants the person gone. The nominal employer usually cannot perform a decent investigation, so they also err on the side of overkill.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 12:58:59 GMT -5
"There are some women who lie"
This is either the point of how you don't understand the male view, or a poor choice of wording. I don't think most men are worried that women will "lie". If a woman wants to lie, she can just make something up and there would be no need for us to worry. The issue is how many women take something that happens and completely misconstrue or interpret something which is either not really offensive to most people, or which has been read into so deeply that they're creating something from nothing.
"If you've never had experience with sexual harassment, don't judge the experiences of those that have. Do not assume all such experiences were bullshit just because you heard of one that was. "
So you want us men to not judge you women because we've never had to deal with being sexually harassed? But it's ok for you women to judge us men on the issue of dealing with women who have victim mentalities and a proclivity to turn innocent actions into harassment?
You can't have it both ways. You can't preach "you don't know what it's like so you have to give us the benefit of the doubt". When at the same time you don't know what it's like for men, but you feel free to make your own claims about what's true and what's not. You can't say "this happens, I'm a woman and I know", and then dismiss the male side of "this happens, I'm a man and I know".
"You treat your female coworkers like actual people who are different from one another sometimes rather than deciding that they are all scheming, lying bitches and treating them as such."
I don't think hardly any are scheming, lying bitches. I just think they're all over-emotional human beings who have been raised by women who taught them that men are evil and every man is apparently one sideways look away from raping them. Shaking it all down to "the women are just lying" would make things so much easier, I would have nothing to worry about because they're either going to lie or they're not. It's much harder to deal with someone who thinks something legitimately happened when it didn't. Dealing with "he groped me" as a completely made up story is one thing. Dealing with "he looked at me in a way that harassed me" is a thousand times more difficult because they probably actually believe it.
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Post by ty on Apr 27, 2011 13:01:28 GMT -5
"There are some women who lie"Say it aint so.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 13:04:11 GMT -5
Speak up if you don't like hearing about your coworker's breast enlargement. She shouldn't be talking about that in the workplace. I can only speak for myself, but I don't particularly care what they talk about. I'm just not going to do it with them. If the woman in the next office over wants to talk way too loudly and in way too much detail about every aspect of her pregnancy, and believe me I know WAY more about it already than I ever really wanted too considering I've never actually had a conversation with her, that's fine. I won't file a complaint about it, because frankly I don't really care, but I'm also not going to sit and chat about it with her. The conversations themselves don't necessarily bother me, although some women are way too open about anything medical related (weird rashes, itchy nipples, all kinds of stuff), but it would be pretty stupid of me to be involved in these conversations. Two women talking about how their boobs ached during pregnancy is fine, if a guy interjects pretty much anything into that conversation though he's risking a sexual harassment complaint. More than likely they'd be fine with it, but if they decide he's creepy, sleazy, was leering, or whatever, he could put himself in hot water. There's pretty much no upside, and a potentially huge downside, why risk it?
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 27, 2011 13:08:19 GMT -5
I could see DH's point. If I brought something up I could see it possibly not being sexual harrassment but a hostile work environment. Especially with pregnancies. Companies want to be seen as pro pregnancy as possible because if they don't then it's discrimination. If a supervisor acted on it and told the pregnant woman to stop talking about her pregnancy details that she could throw out the word 'discrimination'.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Apr 27, 2011 13:11:12 GMT -5
I didn't see any address to my comment - about how someone 4 cubes away could even hear him..... how loud was he? and why didn't he take such a personal call away from his desk? Also - we're getting the filtered version he told his wife after losing a job in only 3 monthsWould he really say - Honey - I totally lost me temper you know how I am-and they canned me for it. And again - this is nothing to do with sexual harassment - unless he was shouting such bitch, slut, whore, whatever...... He was complaining about his brother being harassed by a neighbor (slashing tires, that kind of stuff). I am sure that he probably did use some violent language. And yes, he totally should not have done that, and taking the call at work like that was a really bad idea. Overall, really dumb move. I'm not going to argue it wasn't dumb, because it was. And 3/4 of his department was contractors - it's the way they chose to do it. He was actually inline to be a direct hire after a year (it was a 1 year contact). In fact, the manager he reported to was pissed enough about the firing he actually asked if DH would be interested in being hired through a difference agency in another 7-8 months. Apparently their hiring policy is to hire contractors and then hire directly if they turn out ok.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2011 13:12:36 GMT -5
I could see DH's point. If I brought something up I could see it possibly not being sexual harrassment but a hostile work environment. Especially with pregnancies. Companies want to be seen as pro pregnancy as possible because if they don't then it's discrimination. If a supervisor acted on it and told the pregnant woman to stop talking about her pregnancy details that she could throw out the word 'discrimination'. Not if the supervisor does it right, granted from this thread I am having less and less hope for that. In my opinion, it is easy to say, hey, some people may be uncomfortable with hearing about the medical/personal part of the pregnancy, would you mind stopping it? Not harsh, explains the "problem" and not discriminatory. Easy, but then again, I have no problem calling most guys on their crap too.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 13:15:51 GMT -5
Kreepy - there is also no Santa Claus
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Post by ty on Apr 27, 2011 13:21:51 GMT -5
Sexual harassment goes both ways, mostly women whine and complain about more than the men do. They should be more thankful and grateful that they are even noticed. I find it somewhat amusing when you have one woman attractive that complains about sexual harassment, and then all the others that never get harassed want to know who and where he is. I guess they want some of it too. lol blocked due to malware/_IioO4x27PQQ/TT_kbHMHDEI/AAAAAAAAAu4/sVhtd0JGY4E/s1600/Sexual%252520harassment%252520cartoon.jpg[/img] You just can't win!
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Post by ty on Apr 27, 2011 13:23:57 GMT -5
Kreepy - there is also no Santa Claus Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2011 13:36:54 GMT -5
Sexual harassment goes both ways, mostly women whine and complain about more than the men do. They should be more thankful and grateful that they are even noticed. I find it somewhat amusing when you have one woman attractive that complains about sexual harassment, and then all the others that never get harassed want to know who and where he is. I guess they want some of it too. lol You just can't win! That crosses the line. How freaking hard is it for people to do small talk and be professional. I do not want to be "noticed" at work, I want to do my job and get paid and go home. I do small talk at work and will call people out for inappropriate comment. If my fiance and I can do it, and my professors can as well, why is it such a huge deal to you guys. Only one professor in my old department could not do this. I asked my fiance if he ever worries about getting accused of sexual harassment and he said no, he does not do anything that crosses the line. And guess what Dark, he is the same age as you. Why is it he is not worried and you are? When I asked him why a guy would be worried, he said "because they know they have crossed the line at some point or they already have been accused".
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 13:38:57 GMT -5
One of my male supervisors gave me flowers this morning. He may THINK he was just trying to be nice but I know that he was really just trying to get down my pants.
I now gotta go cry and whine and scream about how he's sexually harassing me, BRB.
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