NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,331
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 26, 2020 9:58:15 GMT -5
A benefit of your late start in having to deal with the issue.  Iowa and Nebraska were crowing about their low deaths and low hospital rates a couple months ago too. Not anymore. They've kept patting themselves on the back and talking about how it won't be so bad because we're spread out across the state. While we will likely not be seeing refrigerated trucks like in densely populated areas such as NYC and LA people are deluding themselves if they think this is it. We did not avoid it, data shows we haven't peaked yet. The worst is coming. And according to the CDC that goes for the mountain area as well which includes Utah. |
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,416
|
Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 26, 2020 10:16:43 GMT -5
A benefit of your late start in having to deal with the issue. Iowa and Nebraska were crowing about their low deaths and low hospital rates a couple months ago too. Not anymore. Us being more spread out population wise was not the savior that they thought it was, it just meant that it took awhile longer to spread like wild fire. While we will likely not be seeing refrigerated trucks like in densely populated areas such as NYC and LA people are deluding themselves if they think this is it. We did not avoid it, we haven't peaked yet. And according to the CDC that goes for the mountain area as well which includes Utah. It is like talking to a brick wall though. They seem to think the worst has passed despite what the math and science says |
|
bean29
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 22:26:57 GMT -5
Posts: 9,970 
|
Post by bean29 on Aug 26, 2020 13:50:37 GMT -5
Iowa and Nebraska were crowing about their low deaths and low hospital rates a couple months ago too. Not anymore. Us being more spread out population wise was not the savior that they thought it was, it just meant that it took awhile longer to spread like wild fire. While we will likely not be seeing refrigerated trucks like in densely populated areas such as NYC and LA people are deluding themselves if they think this is it. We did not avoid it, we haven't peaked yet. And according to the CDC that goes for the mountain area as well which includes Utah. It is like talking to a brick wall though. They seem to think the worst has passed despite what the math and science says I am seeing Republican leaning people on Facebook arguing that people are trying to make [The response to covid] this Political, they say, "I wish it was not political". The reality is it IS POLITICAL. Administrators said They were not going to bring kids back to school face to face yet b/c the rate of infection was too high. Parents are demonstrating that they want face to face classes. They say 53% of Parents want kids to return to school. Our (Democratic) Governor has a Mask Mandate in Place. The Republicans have a majority the state legislature, and they are suing to lift the mask mandate. It is not about what the Science says, or what is in the Public's best interest, but what the Public Wants. People have lost patience with a shut down, or any kind of limits on their lifestyle. I don't see any other alternative that just letting everything open up. Anyone who tries to enforce limits b/c it is the SCIENTIFICALLY Best thing to do to reduce the rate of infection is on the losing side of the battle. Unfortunately we are going to have to stand aside and let the party in charge do whatever they want. Hopefully those of us that can properly assess the risk will have the ability to protect our health while we wait for the Majority of Americans to figure out that Trump only cares about getting re-elected, he does not care about the individual citizens in the country. |
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,416
|
Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 26, 2020 14:00:48 GMT -5
It is like talking to a brick wall though. They seem to think the worst has passed despite what the math and science says I am seeing Republican leaning people on Facebook arguing that people are trying to make [The response to covid] this Political, they say, "I wish it was not political". The reality is it IS POLITICAL. Administrators said They were not going to bring kids back to school face to face yet b/c the rate of infection was too high. Parents are demonstrating that they want face to face classes. They say 53% of Parents want kids to return to school. Our (Democratic) Governor has a Mask Mandate in Place. The Republicans have a majority the state legislature, and they are suing to lift the mask mandate. It is not about what the Science says, or what is in the Public's best interest, but what the Public Wants. People have lost patience with a shut down, or any kind of limits on their lifestyle. I don't see any other alternative that just letting everything open up. Anyone who tries to enforce limits b/c it is the SCIENTIFICALLY Best thing to do to reduce the rate of infection is on the losing side of the battle. Unfortunately we are going to have to stand aside and let the party in charge do whatever they want. Hopefully those of us that can properly assess the risk will have the ability to protect our health while we wait for the Majority of Americans to figure out that Trump only cares about getting re-elected, he does not care about the individual citizens in the country. And we sacrifice healthcare workers to their whims? If we do that, god help us when the next pandemic occurs, because many of them will also look out for their best interest. In addition, if we let it get out of control, many peoples health will suffer as all our attention will be directed elsewhere. Guess we have really gotten too stupid to live. Thankfully, I will either be retired or dead when the next one happens, so I do not have to be part of that chaos |
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 26, 2020 16:43:07 GMT -5
A benefit of your late start in having to deal with the issue. Definitely. All we have to do to protect the nursing homes is keep the visitors out, have the caregivers wear mask, and test everybody constantly. Trying to keep corona out of a nursing home in a town that already has a massive community spread and limited testing would be so much harder. We had a ridiculously high spike when we first opened up. That was about a month ago. If we have not already had a chance to protect the vulnerable populations, the hospitals would’ve been overrun and the death counts would be much higher. And the fact that all the kids were out of school and the office workers have been working from home for months also kept things down. It just makes me sad that all these other states who had time to prepare just didn’t bother. |
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 26, 2020 17:07:05 GMT -5
It is like talking to a brick wall though. They seem to think the worst has passed despite what the math and science says I am seeing Republican leaning people on Facebook arguing that people are trying to make [The response to covid] this Political, they say, "I wish it was not political". The reality is it IS POLITICAL. Administrators said They were not going to bring kids back to school face to face yet b/c the rate of infection was too high. Parents are demonstrating that they want face to face classes. They say 53% of Parents want kids to return to school. Our (Democratic) Governor has a Mask Mandate in Place. The Republicans have a majority the state legislature, and they are suing to lift the mask mandate. It is not about what the Science says, or what is in the Public's best interest, but what the Public Wants. People have lost patience with a shut down, or any kind of limits on their lifestyle. I don't see any other alternative that just letting everything open up. Anyone who tries to enforce limits b/c it is the SCIENTIFICALLY Best thing to do to reduce the rate of infection is on the losing side of the battle. Unfortunately we are going to have to stand aside and let the party in charge do whatever they want. Hopefully those of us that can properly assess the risk will have the ability to protect our health while we wait for the Majority of Americans to figure out that Trump only cares about getting re-elected, he does not care about the individual citizens in the country. It sounds like they need to do a more affective information campaign. If you look at the daily infection rates by day for my state, you can tell we opened up in early June. They didn’t have a mask mandate then, but it was highly recommended. The case counts just skyrocketed, and there was talk of doing another lock down. When we got to the point of having 600 to 800 cases per day, the mayor of the most populous county put in place a mask order. That was in mid to late July, if memory serves. The case counts have gone down to around 300-400, and a disproportionately large number of those cases are the more rural counties that STILL don’t have the mask order in place. I really wish the governor would grow a set and makes the mask order state wide. Unfortunately, this is an election year and he’s trying to get his lieutenant governor elected. When I talk to friends who are skeptical about masks, all I have to do is whip out my phone and show them the daily rate graphs for both the state and the county and Point out the date when we opened up in a date when the mask order went into effect. The graphs make my case for me. If your state doesn’t have good data and you’re trying to convince a mask skeptic, show them to Utah data. Utah has 3 million people, a third of which live in Salt Lake County. coronavirus.utah.gov/case-countsslco.org/health/COVID-19/data/ |
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 26, 2020 17:27:09 GMT -5
Iowa and Nebraska were crowing about their low deaths and low hospital rates a couple months ago too. Not anymore. Us being more spread out population wise was not the savior that they thought it was, it just meant that it took awhile longer to spread like wild fire. While we will likely not be seeing refrigerated trucks like in densely populated areas such as NYC and LA people are deluding themselves if they think this is it. We did not avoid it, we haven't peaked yet. And according to the CDC that goes for the mountain area as well which includes Utah. It is like talking to a brick wall though. They seem to think the worst has passed despite what the math and science says Some of the worst outbreaks of my state have been in the super rural counties where you have to drive 50 miles to the nearest gas station. And when those folks get sick from being complete effing morons, they get sent our hospitals. |
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233 
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2020 19:09:53 GMT -5
South Korea is thoroughly international. so is Japan. so is Germany. ALL of these countries did vastly better than us.
it is time to stop making up excuses for our failure and dealing with it.
or is that the REAL reason that 57% of Republicans think it is OK? that we are not up to the task of self criticism AT ALL.
American Exceptionalism doesn't look so great in light of this massive failure.
No I’m not saying we Didn’t fail,. When I compare what my locals did to what the feds did, I feel sorry for the rest of the country. But in order to do what South Korea or Japan did, we would have to thoroughly restructure our form of government, beyond replacing the current occupant of the White House. It would mean a much stronger federal government, and a higher level of competence than we’ve seen in decades. Local leaders wouldn’t have the option of dragging their feet or outright disregarding the lockdown. For example, getting any kind of rail project done in this country is orders of magnitude more expensive and difficult than it is in other countries. It isn’t because our geography is uniquely difficult or we lack the materials or brains to do the job. It’s a political problem. If Eisenhower had to deal with the kind of crap the people who try to build Caltrain are dealing with, the interstate system never would have been built. the structure of government and the attitude of people toward it in South Korea is quite similar to the US. I won't bother trying to make the same case for Japan, because I don't think I can.
as to your underlying argument that we are anti-federalist to a degree that most countries wouldn't even understand, i agree. i don't think it is because of incompetence, however. i think our government here is largely competent. but there is a deeply unsettled view of freedom in the US that has a lot of detractors both in the elite and the thundering herd. we tend to see it as "freedom FROM" in the US rather than "freedom TO". and yeah, that is a major cultural obstacle when it comes to solving big problems.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2020 19:19:14 GMT -5
Time will tell pulmonary. You’ve been saying for months that my state was going to end up like New York. It hasn’t happened yet. The fact that we had time to prepare and have low population density is luck. There’s no arguing that point. The fact that the local government was preparing for months before the lockdown, shut down early and hard, partnered with local businesses to ramp up testing capacity, and is making decisions based on real data is not luck. It’s competence. Continue to believe that. Cases are heading up in the center of the country. We were always going to have rolling outbreaks. It will be your turn. In addition, your state is nearing 50k cases. Not sure how you continue to brag about how well you are doing. My state has been doing well, but we now have an increase in cases in one city. I am also waiting for another spike here. It is only a matter of time In addition, you continue to blame the governors. How are they supposed to be better informed than the president. He has the best intelligence, and is responsible for the well-being of the nation. That is on him. And if you believe your governor is so great, well time will tell. this is not the argument i would have chosen, but i can see the point.
what i would argue is that even if you are not a federalist (i am not), you SHOULD at least hope that the minimum standards for social behavior should be supported and in a situation like this, enforced, by the federal government. when it became known that social distancing was a good idea, we should have had FEDERAL GUIDELINES for it, and a suggestion to every governor and legislature to enforce those guidelines until the pandemic was over. instead we had a hodgepodge where infected states with high discipline and enforcement were slapped right up against other states with little to no discipline whatsoever.
it is a disaster, and it was entirely avoidable, imo.
i never held out ANY hope that we would end up like South Korea, with 6 deaths per million. but i held out SOME hope that we would end up somewhere between that and Germany, with 111 deaths per million. the fact that we are 5x that is an international disgrace, and the fact that 50 million Americans can't seem to come to grips with that just adds to the embarrassment.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2020 19:22:53 GMT -5
True, but many of those states continued fumbling the ball because they were relying on (or blindly believing) statements from the president and the administration. As much as you want to try, there is no separating the failures of individual states from the failures of this president. If your state did better because they ignored or disregarded the president, great. So did mine. Much of the initial progress on the virus came because doctors in my state ignored orders to not test. They realized what was at stake and went ahead anyway. Good for them. If everyone in this country had listened exclusively to Donald Trump, we would be in even far worse shape than we are. And where we are now is certainly nothing to brag about. Trump is a disaster. Everyone who actually knows anything knows that. We did not have to be where we are in this. The failure is on his doorstep, no matter how much he tries to shoo it away. When did Dr. Fauci or any of the other actual medical professionals in the administration say that testing was bad and that we shouldn’t bother with contact tracing? Was this on the CDC website somewhere? Trump has some said some spectacularly stupid things, and those stupid statements have given stupid states cover to do stupid things they would have done anyway. But he also repeatedly put smart people like Dr. Fauci on national TV, And no reasonably intelligent person is going to take the word of a politician over an epidemiologist when it comes to pandemic policy.
If you can find evidence that Trump somehow punished Utah for being sensible, then you’d have a point. But absent that, states that are run by incompetent crooks are going to do stupid no matter who’s in the White House. I think your overestimating trumps influence. i consider myself an optimist, but i find the bolded points dubious. |
|
