Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 25, 2020 16:14:16 GMT -5
I agree, but it still doesn't answer the question:
why is 180k dead Americans acceptable?
I HONESTLY don't get it. seriously.
I don’t think it’s acceptable as much is unavoidable. We are an international country, so we didn’t have the option of closing our borders like New Zealand did. And we have these ideas about individual liberty and states rights that make it more difficult to mount a national response. And all the feds could’ve done a lot of things a lot better. So many people have come to expect incompetence from the federal government. In my little red state, we shut down I think before New York did, and the schools immediately started providing sack breakfast and lunch to school kids, handing out chrome books to kids who didn’t have computers at home, and did a pretty damn good job teaching during the lockdown. I was so impressed that I pulled my daughter out of the private school and put her in a public school this year. Local officials immediately started partnering with businesses to make sure testing was free and easy. Everybody I know who’s had a fever or cough was sent for testing, which takes less than an hour, and got the results back in 1 to 2 days. The nursing homes were locked down very early on, which drastically reduce the hospitalizations and deaths. And the health department is being pretty aggressive with contact tracing. This didn’t happen because the feds came in and rescued us . This happened because local government officials were in Covid meetings hammering this out long before the shut down, and probably had loose plans in place for pandemics years ago. And while my state isn’t as poor as Mississippi, we also don’t have hordes of one percenters paying skyhigh taxes like the East and West Coast does. Other than the states that were hit first, the idea that this couldn’t have been handled without a huge federal response it’s pretty laughable when you live in a state that has competent local government. I feel bad for you guys that are paying blue state taxes and getting a Mississippi level of competence. Since I've now learned you are in Utah, the 13th largest state by land mass, I think you've been giving your state too much credit. Mitt Romney, a Presidential candidate who believed he was going to win, is one of your state senators. Your state may have gotten the jump on things in large part because he is your senator, was a Presidential candidate who had planned for his govt when elected, and he is a Republican. Because he was a Republican he got better warning than Democratic states or governors of what was going to happen or more importantly what probably wouldn't happen. Romney knew there was a pandemic response team in the past and that Trump had gutted it. I doubt Gov. Murphy (NJ) or Gov. Cuomo knew that information at the same time Romney did. I wonder if they if knew before us regular citizens found out through various channels. The size of the problem in Utah is so much smaller and easier to manage than it is for NJ and NY. Heck both NYC and NJ have more than double your population. From 2015 stats, NJ comes in 2nd to the district of Columbia for population density at 1218 people per sq. mile. Utah has 14. And it likely you had the added advantage of not having people fly in from Italy, and other European hotspots on a daily or hourly basis at the beginning of the pandemic. You don't have to like the East or West coast if you don't want to, but don't pretend your state did it by its own self no federal input whatsoever and that blue states that Trump actively undermined in regards to PPE, etc. are fools compared to a state that escaped being a first round epi-center.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 25, 2020 16:27:46 GMT -5
I would also point out that most of the people paying blue states taxes have blue state incomes. Makes it a lot easier to swallow. In my line of work, moving to a blue state means living in a smaller house In a sketchier neighborhood, with worse schools and a longer commute. The 20 to 50% bump in pay doesn’t really do much for you if you’re paying over three times as much for housing and taxes. If it doesn't work for you fine. Don't come, I think people should live where they like if they can. I disagree a bit with TG. Washington state is more progressive than NJ, there are lots of jobs that pay crap here and aren't much better than a LCOL state I'm familiar with like Indiana. It depends a lot on what you do for a living, what you like, and frankly what you are comfortable with. Moving to NJ for a good job and living here for a couple decades with good salaries spoiled me a bit for the midwestern states I know well.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 25, 2020 16:47:06 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s acceptable as much is unavoidable. We are an international country, so we didn’t have the option of closing our borders like New Zealand did. . South Korea is thoroughly international. so is Japan. so is Germany. ALL of these countries did vastly better than us.
it is time to stop making up excuses for our failure and dealing with it.
or is that the REAL reason that 57% of Republicans think it is OK? that we are not up to the task of self criticism AT ALL.
American Exceptionalism doesn't look so great in light of this massive failure.
Right now our elected leader doesn't do self reflection, and per article writers over the years maybe never did. I don't know if federal Republicans and governors have lost their collective minds or whether they are merely frogs in constantly boiling and changing waters who have given up anything but the present moment. I know there are smart thinking conservatives. On the other hand I have learned way more people with conservative minds simply don't do self reflection or its short and skin deep on a good day. Trump won't point out that one of the reasons Germany did so well is when they implemented their national healthcare system they planned over capacity into their hospital system. In other words, when Covid hit the fan they didn't need field hospitals like NY, they had regular ones ready to use. I hate the idea of American Exceptionalism because it just seems a pretty fantasy way to deny reality and not make America better.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 25, 2020 17:01:40 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s acceptable as much is unavoidable. We are an international country, so we didn’t have the option of closing our borders like New Zealand did. . South Korea is thoroughly international. so is Japan. so is Germany. ALL of these countries did vastly better than us.
it is time to stop making up excuses for our failure and dealing with it.
or is that the REAL reason that 57% of Republicans think it is OK? that we are not up to the task of self criticism AT ALL.
American Exceptionalism doesn't look so great in light of this massive failure.
No I’m not saying we Didn’t fail,. When I compare what my locals did to what the feds did, I feel sorry for the rest of the country. But in order to do what South Korea or Japan did, we would have to thoroughly restructure our form of government, beyond replacing the current occupant of the White House. It would mean a much stronger federal government, and a higher level of competence than we’ve seen in decades. Local leaders wouldn’t have the option of dragging their feet or outright disregarding the lockdown. For example, getting any kind of rail project done in this country is orders of magnitude more expensive and difficult than it is in other countries. It isn’t because our geography is uniquely difficult or we lack the materials or brains to do the job. It’s a political problem. If Eisenhower had to deal with the kind of crap the people who try to build Caltrain are dealing with, the interstate system never would have been built.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 25, 2020 17:15:59 GMT -5
South Korea is thoroughly international. so is Japan. so is Germany. ALL of these countries did vastly better than us.
it is time to stop making up excuses for our failure and dealing with it.
or is that the REAL reason that 57% of Republicans think it is OK? that we are not up to the task of self criticism AT ALL.
American Exceptionalism doesn't look so great in light of this massive failure.
No I’m not saying we Didn’t fail,. When I compare what my locals did to what the feds did, I feel sorry for the rest of the country. But in order to do what South Korea or Japan did, we would have to thoroughly restructure our form of government, beyond replacing the current occupant of the White House. It would mean a much stronger federal government, and a higher level of competence than we’ve seen in decades. Local leaders wouldn’t have the option of dragging their feet or outright disregarding the lockdown. For example, getting any kind of rail project done in this country is orders of magnitude more expensive and difficult than it is in other countries. It isn’t because our geography is uniquely difficult or we lack the materials or brains to do the job. It’s a political problem. If Eisenhower had to deal with the kind of crap the people who try to build Caltrain are dealing with, the interstate system never would have been built. You still don’t get it. You have been LUCKY. The virus hasn’t really reached you in significant doses yet. When it does, you may fare better than other places, but you haven’t felt it’s fury yet. You are still far too confident. It hasn’t gone anywhere. It will make a second round, and given what has happened elsewhere, it will likely be as significant as the first. Nothing has changed significantly, and even places that have done well are struggling to keep it contained
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 25, 2020 17:32:16 GMT -5
South Korea is thoroughly international. so is Japan. so is Germany. ALL of these countries did vastly better than us.
it is time to stop making up excuses for our failure and dealing with it.
or is that the REAL reason that 57% of Republicans think it is OK? that we are not up to the task of self criticism AT ALL.
American Exceptionalism doesn't look so great in light of this massive failure.
No I’m not saying we Didn’t fail,. When I compare what my locals did to what the feds did, I feel sorry for the rest of the country. But in order to do what South Korea or Japan did, we would have to thoroughly restructure our form of government, beyond replacing the current occupant of the White House. It would mean a much stronger federal government, and a higher level of competence than we’ve seen in decades. Local leaders wouldn’t have the option of dragging their feet or outright disregarding the lockdown. For example, getting any kind of rail project done in this country is orders of magnitude more expensive and difficult than it is in other countries. It isn’t because our geography is uniquely difficult or we lack the materials or brains to do the job. It’s a political problem. If Eisenhower had to deal with the kind of crap the people who try to build Caltrain are dealing with, the interstate system never would have been built. No actually we could have done a lot better with a federal government willing to coordinate the response between the states. A competent pandemic tsar could have created a national policy, set up a system to be able to share resources, including medical staff, and to avoid the situation where states were trying to outbid other states for scarce PPE. Trump deliberately ignored the issue, refused to wear a mask until just recently, complained that states were being too greedy wanting PPE supplies, and spread misinformation about the virus. Indifferent,uneducated, incompetent.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 25, 2020 17:35:55 GMT -5
Just talked to a coworker. Her adult son had (has?) Covid. He is a month into it, still sick and lost 50 pounds.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Aug 25, 2020 17:52:26 GMT -5
No I’m not saying we Didn’t fail,. When I compare what my locals did to what the feds did, I feel sorry for the rest of the country. But in order to do what South Korea or Japan did, we would have to thoroughly restructure our form of government, beyond replacing the current occupant of the White House. It would mean a much stronger federal government, and a higher level of competence than we’ve seen in decades. Local leaders wouldn’t have the option of dragging their feet or outright disregarding the lockdown. For example, getting any kind of rail project done in this country is orders of magnitude more expensive and difficult than it is in other countries. It isn’t because our geography is uniquely difficult or we lack the materials or brains to do the job. It’s a political problem. If Eisenhower had to deal with the kind of crap the people who try to build Caltrain are dealing with, the interstate system never would have been built. No actually we could have done a lot better with a federal government willing to coordinate the response between the states. A competent pandemic tsar could have created a national policy, set up a system to be able to share resources, including medical staff, and to avoid the situation where states were trying to outbid other states for scarce PPE. Trump deliberately ignored the issue, refused to wear a mask until just recently, complained that states were being too greedy wanting PPE supplies, and spread misinformation about the virus. Indifferent,uneducated, incompetent. Plus there were the numerous reports of TrumpCo. Seizing state PPE supplies and Kushner’s famous line “This is ours” when referring to the national stockpile. Governors actually went surreptitious to prevent further stealing by Don and the cons.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 25, 2020 17:53:28 GMT -5
Just talked to a coworker. Her adult son had (has?) Covid. He is a month into it, still sick and lost 50 pounds. Yikes!
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 25, 2020 18:04:17 GMT -5
Just talked to a coworker. Her adult son had (has?) Covid. He is a month into it, still sick and lost 50 pounds. Not surprised. I know of people who needed five to six weeks before starting to declare victory. Good luck to him and your coworker.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 25, 2020 19:20:41 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s acceptable as much is unavoidable. We are an international country, so we didn’t have the option of closing our borders like New Zealand did. And we have these ideas about individual liberty and states rights that make it more difficult to mount a national response. And all the feds could’ve done a lot of things a lot better. So many people have come to expect incompetence from the federal government. In my little red state, we shut down I think before New York did, and the schools immediately started providing sack breakfast and lunch to school kids, handing out chrome books to kids who didn’t have computers at home, and did a pretty damn good job teaching during the lockdown. I was so impressed that I pulled my daughter out of the private school and put her in a public school this year. Local officials immediately started partnering with businesses to make sure testing was free and easy. Everybody I know who’s had a fever or cough was sent for testing, which takes less than an hour, and got the results back in 1 to 2 days. The nursing homes were locked down very early on, which drastically reduce the hospitalizations and deaths. And the health department is being pretty aggressive with contact tracing. This didn’t happen because the feds came in and rescued us . This happened because local government officials were in Covid meetings hammering this out long before the shut down, and probably had loose plans in place for pandemics years ago. And while my state isn’t as poor as Mississippi, we also don’t have hordes of one percenters paying skyhigh taxes like the East and West Coast does. Other than the states that were hit first, the idea that this couldn’t have been handled without a huge federal response it’s pretty laughable when you live in a state that has competent local government. I feel bad for you guys that are paying blue state taxes and getting a Mississippi level of competence. Since I've now learned you are in Utah, the 13th largest state by land mass, I think you've been giving your state too much credit. Mitt Romney, a Presidential candidate who believed he was going to win, is one of your state senators. Your state may have gotten the jump on things in large part because he is your senator, was a Presidential candidate who had planned for his govt when elected, and he is a Republican. Because he was a Republican he got better warning than Democratic states or governors of what was going to happen or more importantly what probably wouldn't happen. Romney knew there was a pandemic response team in the past and that Trump had gutted it. I doubt Gov. Murphy (NJ) or Gov. Cuomo knew that information at the same time Romney did. I wonder if they if knew before us regular citizens found out through various channels. The size of the problem in Utah is so much smaller and easier to manage than it is for NJ and NY. Heck both NYC and NJ have more than double your population. From 2015 stats, NJ comes in 2nd to the district of Columbia for population density at 1218 people per sq. mile. Utah has 14. And it likely you had the added advantage of not having people fly in from Italy, and other European hotspots on a daily or hourly basis at the beginning of the pandemic. You don't have to like the East or West coast if you don't want to, but don't pretend your state did it by its own self no federal input whatsoever and that blue states that Trump actively undermined in regards to PPE, etc. are fools compared to a state that escaped being a first round epi-center. Trump and Romney hate each other. And Romney is on the outs with most of the rest of the Republicans. What voices in your head and make you think that he would’ve been given the inside track? The LDS church does send a lot of young people all over the world, So that might’ve given them a heads up, but as you said, New York has plenty of travelers too. In late January, china shut down factories, quarantined tens of millions of people and canceled the biggest holiday in the country. Chinese new year is the one time that people working in factories can go home and see their families. It is a big effing deal that they canceled that travel. Anybody with a brain in their head should’ve known then that something big is happening in China. Do I think we would’ve done as well if we had been the first hit? No, of course not. Covid was probably already circulating in New York when the Chinese government was still saying there was no human to human transmission. And it had gotten out of control before we had any kind of testing capacity. But unlike other states in flyover country, my state actually made use of the time we had. And if you’re going to sit there and point fingers at the many failures in the federal response, I don’t think it’s heresy to also point out that many local governments also dropped the ball.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 25, 2020 19:37:28 GMT -5
Since I've now learned you are in Utah, the 13th largest state by land mass, I think you've been giving your state too much credit. Mitt Romney, a Presidential candidate who believed he was going to win, is one of your state senators. Your state may have gotten the jump on things in large part because he is your senator, was a Presidential candidate who had planned for his govt when elected, and he is a Republican. Because he was a Republican he got better warning than Democratic states or governors of what was going to happen or more importantly what probably wouldn't happen. Romney knew there was a pandemic response team in the past and that Trump had gutted it. I doubt Gov. Murphy (NJ) or Gov. Cuomo knew that information at the same time Romney did. I wonder if they if knew before us regular citizens found out through various channels. The size of the problem in Utah is so much smaller and easier to manage than it is for NJ and NY. Heck both NYC and NJ have more than double your population. From 2015 stats, NJ comes in 2nd to the district of Columbia for population density at 1218 people per sq. mile. Utah has 14. And it likely you had the added advantage of not having people fly in from Italy, and other European hotspots on a daily or hourly basis at the beginning of the pandemic. You don't have to like the East or West coast if you don't want to, but don't pretend your state did it by its own self no federal input whatsoever and that blue states that Trump actively undermined in regards to PPE, etc. are fools compared to a state that escaped being a first round epi-center. Trump and Romney hate each other. And Romney is on the outs with most of the rest of the Republicans. What voices in your head and make you think that he would’ve been given the inside track? The LDS church does send a lot of young people all over the world, So that might’ve given them a heads up, but as you said, New York has plenty of travelers too. In late January, china shut down factories, quarantined tens of millions of people and canceled the biggest holiday in the country. Chinese new year is the one time that people working in factories can go home and see their families. It is a big effing deal that they canceled that travel. Anybody with a brain in their head should’ve known then that something big is happening in China. Do I think we would’ve done as well if we had been the first hit? No, of course not. Covid was probably already circulating in New York when the Chinese government was still saying there was no human to human transmission. And it had gotten out of control before we had any kind of testing capacity. But unlike other states in flyover country, my state actually made use of the time we had. And if you’re going to sit there and point fingers at the many failures in the federal response, I don’t think it’s heresy to also point out that many local governments also dropped the ball. True, but many of those states continued fumbling the ball because they were relying on (or blindly believing) statements from the president and the administration. As much as you want to try, there is no separating the failures of individual states from the failures of this president. If your state did better because they ignored or disregarded the president, great. So did mine. Much of the initial progress on the virus came because doctors in my state ignored orders to not test. They realized what was at stake and went ahead anyway. Good for them. If everyone in this country had listened exclusively to Donald Trump, we would be in even far worse shape than we are. And where we are now is certainly nothing to brag about. Trump is a disaster. Everyone who actually knows anything knows that. We did not have to be where we are in this. The failure is on his doorstep, no matter how much he tries to shoo it away.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 25, 2020 20:04:11 GMT -5
No I’m not saying we Didn’t fail,. When I compare what my locals did to what the feds did, I feel sorry for the rest of the country. But in order to do what South Korea or Japan did, we would have to thoroughly restructure our form of government, beyond replacing the current occupant of the White House. It would mean a much stronger federal government, and a higher level of competence than we’ve seen in decades. Local leaders wouldn’t have the option of dragging their feet or outright disregarding the lockdown. For example, getting any kind of rail project done in this country is orders of magnitude more expensive and difficult than it is in other countries. It isn’t because our geography is uniquely difficult or we lack the materials or brains to do the job. It’s a political problem. If Eisenhower had to deal with the kind of crap the people who try to build Caltrain are dealing with, the interstate system never would have been built. You still don’t get it. You have been LUCKY. The virus hasn’t really reached you in significant doses yet. When it does, you may fare better than other places, but you haven’t felt it’s fury yet. You are still far too confident. It hasn’t gone anywhere. It will make a second round, and given what has happened elsewhere, it will likely be as significant as the first. Nothing has changed significantly, and even places that have done well are struggling to keep it contained Time will tell pulmonary. You’ve been saying for months that my state was going to end up like New York. It hasn’t happened yet. The fact that we had time to prepare and have low population density is luck. There’s no arguing that point. The fact that the local government was preparing for months before the lockdown, shut down early and hard, partnered with local businesses to ramp up testing capacity, and is making decisions based on real data is not luck. It’s competence.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 25, 2020 20:56:25 GMT -5
Since I've now learned you are in Utah, the 13th largest state by land mass, I think you've been giving your state too much credit. Mitt Romney, a Presidential candidate who believed he was going to win, is one of your state senators. Your state may have gotten the jump on things in large part because he is your senator, was a Presidential candidate who had planned for his govt when elected, and he is a Republican. Because he was a Republican he got better warning than Democratic states or governors of what was going to happen or more importantly what probably wouldn't happen. Romney knew there was a pandemic response team in the past and that Trump had gutted it. I doubt Gov. Murphy (NJ) or Gov. Cuomo knew that information at the same time Romney did. I wonder if they if knew before us regular citizens found out through various channels. The size of the problem in Utah is so much smaller and easier to manage than it is for NJ and NY. Heck both NYC and NJ have more than double your population. From 2015 stats, NJ comes in 2nd to the district of Columbia for population density at 1218 people per sq. mile. Utah has 14. And it likely you had the added advantage of not having people fly in from Italy, and other European hotspots on a daily or hourly basis at the beginning of the pandemic. You don't have to like the East or West coast if you don't want to, but don't pretend your state did it by its own self no federal input whatsoever and that blue states that Trump actively undermined in regards to PPE, etc. are fools compared to a state that escaped being a first round epi-center. Trump and Romney hate each other. And Romney is on the outs with most of the rest of the Republicans. What voices in your head and make you think that he would’ve been given the inside track? The LDS church does send a lot of young people all over the world, So that might’ve given them a heads up, but as you said, New York has plenty of travelers too. In late January, china shut down factories, quarantined tens of millions of people and canceled the biggest holiday in the country. Chinese new year is the one time that people working in factories can go home and see their families. It is a big effing deal that they canceled that travel. Anybody with a brain in their head should’ve known then that something big is happening in China. Do I think we would’ve done as well if we had been the first hit? No, of course not. Covid was probably already circulating in New York when the Chinese government was still saying there was no human to human transmission. And it had gotten out of control before we had any kind of testing capacity. But unlike other states in flyover country, my state actually made use of the time we had. And if you’re going to sit there and point fingers at the many failures in the federal response, I don’t think it’s heresy to also point out that many local governments also dropped the ball. I wish you would understand what I've written instead of making up wacky arguments that are nowhere near what I wrote nor think. Leaving your voices out of this, I did not say Romney had the inside track. But Romney is a longtime Republican treading the halls of power in DC. Unless your governor is an idiot like Trump, he solicited information from Romney and used him as one of the channels to the WH and the federal government in general. Its true I don't know for certain he did that, but it seems far more likely than him sitting comfy in the governor's mansion dreaming up a strategy whole cloth by himself or only with the aid of those below him. The man did chair the governor's association in the 2015-1016 cycle so he probably used info from other governors and their network too. I'm having a real hard time with your insistence of using the phrase local governments. Mainly because I am fairly certain you really don't mean your particular town's government when you include it your post. Sure some states did better than others. And I'm glad for you that your governor did well by you and your state. But given NJ was hit early and hard when a well planned federal response could have made a big difference, I will never have the focus on state responses like you do. Even though NJ does have Chinese companies here, it is believed our cases like NY's mainly came from Europe. Did you know that Europe's first coronavirus case is believed to happen in December 2019? Because my areas cases largely came from Europe I also can't get as invested in China and what they did or did not do. nypost.com/2020/05/05/europes-first-coronavirus-case-was-in-december-scientists/
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 25, 2020 20:56:41 GMT -5
You still don’t get it. You have been LUCKY. The virus hasn’t really reached you in significant doses yet. When it does, you may fare better than other places, but you haven’t felt it’s fury yet. You are still far too confident. It hasn’t gone anywhere. It will make a second round, and given what has happened elsewhere, it will likely be as significant as the first. Nothing has changed significantly, and even places that have done well are struggling to keep it contained Time will tell pulmonary. You’ve been saying for months that my state was going to end up like New York. It hasn’t happened yet. The fact that we had time to prepare and have low population density is luck. There’s no arguing that point. The fact that the local government was preparing for months before the lockdown, shut down early and hard, partnered with local businesses to ramp up testing capacity, and is making decisions based on real data is not luck. It’s competence. Continue to believe that. Cases are heading up in the center of the country. We were always going to have rolling outbreaks. It will be your turn. In addition, your state is nearing 50k cases. Not sure how you continue to brag about how well you are doing. My state has been doing well, but we now have an increase in cases in one city. I am also waiting for another spike here. It is only a matter of time In addition, you continue to blame the governors. How are they supposed to be better informed than the president. He has the best intelligence, and is responsible for the well-being of the nation. That is on him. And if you believe your governor is so great, well time will tell.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Aug 25, 2020 21:00:07 GMT -5
You still don’t get it. You have been LUCKY. The virus hasn’t really reached you in significant doses yet. When it does, you may fare better than other places, but you haven’t felt it’s fury yet. You are still far too confident. It hasn’t gone anywhere. It will make a second round, and given what has happened elsewhere, it will likely be as significant as the first. Nothing has changed significantly, and even places that have done well are struggling to keep it contained Time will tell pulmonary. You’ve been saying for months that my state was going to end up like New York. It hasn’t happened yet. The fact that we had time to prepare and have low population density is luck. There’s no arguing that point. The fact that the local government was preparing for months before the lockdown, shut down early and hard, partnered with local businesses to ramp up testing capacity, and is making decisions based on real data is not luck. It’s competence. I'm not sure why people are arguing that when you did the stuff we are asking everyone to do now it worked. But it does and it did. But it is a bad situation when the right thing to do is show your president the middle finger and do the opposite of what he's telling you to do. Especially when he is always out to punish those that are "disloyal" to him
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 25, 2020 21:05:55 GMT -5
Time will tell pulmonary. You’ve been saying for months that my state was going to end up like New York. It hasn’t happened yet. The fact that we had time to prepare and have low population density is luck. There’s no arguing that point. The fact that the local government was preparing for months before the lockdown, shut down early and hard, partnered with local businesses to ramp up testing capacity, and is making decisions based on real data is not luck. It’s competence. I'm not sure why people are arguing that when you did the stuff we are asking everyone to do now it worked. But it does and it did. But it is a bad situation when the right thing to do is show your president the middle finger and do the opposite of what he's telling you to do. Especially when he is always out to punish those that are "disloyal" to him Not arguing, it’s the smugness of her posting. As if they are totally controlling it, and have done everything right. New Zealand, who has done most things right, still has cases. Europe, which has done better, is still struggling to contain outbreaks. To think they are out of the woods is magical thinking
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 25, 2020 21:14:22 GMT -5
Trump and Romney hate each other. And Romney is on the outs with most of the rest of the Republicans. What voices in your head and make you think that he would’ve been given the inside track? The LDS church does send a lot of young people all over the world, So that might’ve given them a heads up, but as you said, New York has plenty of travelers too. In late January, china shut down factories, quarantined tens of millions of people and canceled the biggest holiday in the country. Chinese new year is the one time that people working in factories can go home and see their families. It is a big effing deal that they canceled that travel. Anybody with a brain in their head should’ve known then that something big is happening in China. Do I think we would’ve done as well if we had been the first hit? No, of course not. Covid was probably already circulating in New York when the Chinese government was still saying there was no human to human transmission. And it had gotten out of control before we had any kind of testing capacity. But unlike other states in flyover country, my state actually made use of the time we had. And if you’re going to sit there and point fingers at the many failures in the federal response, I don’t think it’s heresy to also point out that many local governments also dropped the ball. True, but many of those states continued fumbling the ball because they were relying on (or blindly believing) statements from the president and the administration. As much as you want to try, there is no separating the failures of individual states from the failures of this president. If your state did better because they ignored or disregarded the president, great. So did mine. Much of the initial progress on the virus came because doctors in my state ignored orders to not test. They realized what was at stake and went ahead anyway. Good for them. If everyone in this country had listened exclusively to Donald Trump, we would be in even far worse shape than we are. And where we are now is certainly nothing to brag about. Trump is a disaster. Everyone who actually knows anything knows that. We did not have to be where we are in this. The failure is on his doorstep, no matter how much he tries to shoo it away. When did Dr. Fauci or any of the other actual medical professionals in the administration say that testing was bad and that we shouldn’t bother with contact tracing? Was this on the CDC website somewhere? Trump has some said some spectacularly stupid things, and those stupid statements have given stupid states cover to do stupid things they would have done anyway. But he also repeatedly put smart people like Dr. Fauci on national TV, And no reasonably intelligent person is going to take the word of a politician over an epidemiologist when it comes to pandemic policy. If you can find evidence that Trump somehow punished Utah for being sensible, then you’d have a point. But absent that, states that are run by incompetent crooks are going to do stupid no matter who’s in the White House. I think your overestimating trumps influence.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 25, 2020 22:21:01 GMT -5
You still don’t get it. You have been LUCKY. The virus hasn’t really reached you in significant doses yet. When it does, you may fare better than other places, but you haven’t felt it’s fury yet. You are still far too confident. It hasn’t gone anywhere. It will make a second round, and given what has happened elsewhere, it will likely be as significant as the first. Nothing has changed significantly, and even places that have done well are struggling to keep it contained Time will tell pulmonary. You’ve been saying for months that my state was going to end up like New York. It hasn’t happened yet. The fact that we had time to prepare and have low population density is luck. There’s no arguing that point. The fact that the local government was preparing for months before the lockdown, shut down early and hard, partnered with local businesses to ramp up testing capacity, and is making decisions based on real data is not luck. It’s competence. I don't know what's going happen in any given state, but is still early in the Pandemic game if you will. In January, mid to late January we find out the first Covid case is recognized in Seattle. Worldometer graphs for the US states start on March 12. There isn't even two months of time, i.e. 60 days between January 17th and March 12th to prepare. I don't remember when NJ shutdown nor do I even remember when I knew or cared about that first Covid case. But I do remember when my workplace shutdown to all outside visitors, about March 15th. Today being August 25th we are just past 5 months into this for most states. Its been interesting to watch and learn about surprise issues in other states like meat processing plants. I don't know what tomorrow or even the end of the year will bring, except more cases and more deaths. And today's interesting tidbit is Utah is second in mink processing plants in the US and apparently at least 5 minks have Covid. www.ksl.com/article/50009415/peta-calls-for-shutdown-of-utah-mink-farms-after-covid-19-infects-animals
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 25, 2020 22:49:35 GMT -5
Trump and Romney hate each other. And Romney is on the outs with most of the rest of the Republicans. What voices in your head and make you think that he would’ve been given the inside track? The LDS church does send a lot of young people all over the world, So that might’ve given them a heads up, but as you said, New York has plenty of travelers too. In late January, china shut down factories, quarantined tens of millions of people and canceled the biggest holiday in the country. Chinese new year is the one time that people working in factories can go home and see their families. It is a big effing deal that they canceled that travel. Anybody with a brain in their head should’ve known then that something big is happening in China. Do I think we would’ve done as well if we had been the first hit? No, of course not. Covid was probably already circulating in New York when the Chinese government was still saying there was no human to human transmission. And it had gotten out of control before we had any kind of testing capacity. But unlike other states in flyover country, my state actually made use of the time we had. And if you’re going to sit there and point fingers at the many failures in the federal response, I don’t think it’s heresy to also point out that many local governments also dropped the ball. I wish you would understand what I've written instead of making up wacky arguments that are nowhere near what I wrote nor think. Leaving your voices out of this, I did not say Romney had the inside track. But Romney is a longtime Republican treading the halls of power in DC. Unless your governor is an idiot like Trump, he solicited information from Romney and used him as one of the channels to the WH and the federal government in general. Its true I don't know for certain he did that, but it seems far more likely than him sitting comfy in the governor's mansion dreaming up a strategy whole cloth by himself or only with the aid of those below him. The man did chair the governor's association in the 2015-1016 cycle so he probably used info from other governors and their network too. I'm having a real hard time with your insistence of using the phrase local governments. Mainly because I am fairly certain you really don't mean your particular town's government when you include it your post. Sure some states did better than others. And I'm glad for you that your governor did well by you and your state. But given NJ was hit early and hard when a well planned federal response could have made a big difference, I will never have the focus on state responses like you do. Even though NJ does have Chinese companies here, it is believed our cases like NY's mainly came from Europe. Did you know that Europe's first coronavirus case is believed to happen in December 2019? Because my areas cases largely came from Europe I also can't get as invested in China and what they did or did not do. nypost.com/2020/05/05/europes-first-coronavirus-case-was-in-december-scientists/Lots of states have senators and representatives who have held powerful positions in Washington forever. I don’t understand why you think an insignificant state with a population of 3 million would somehow get information that other states couldn’t get, and that’s the only reason we could’ve possibly had a more intelligent response to coronavirus than other states who had time to prepare. And yes, I’m using the word local for anything below the federal level of government. And no, I don’t think we would’ve done as well if we hadn’t have had several months to prepare. In the middle of March they were only 50 cases in the state, and that’s when we locked down. Comparing our situation to yours is apples to oranges. One thing I do know is that the folks in county government were in constant Covid meetings well before the lockdown. After all, the carnage in New York was all over the news long before the lockdown. When the feds gave the lockdown order, local school districts didn’t drag their feet closing the schools because they were worried about feeding low income kids. They had already figured that out. This is what competent government looks like. Yes a well coordinated Federal response would’ve helped a lot. I’ve said over and over again that Trump Could’ve done a lot better on this.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 26, 2020 0:07:42 GMT -5
True, but many of those states continued fumbling the ball because they were relying on (or blindly believing) statements from the president and the administration. As much as you want to try, there is no separating the failures of individual states from the failures of this president. If your state did better because they ignored or disregarded the president, great. So did mine. Much of the initial progress on the virus came because doctors in my state ignored orders to not test. They realized what was at stake and went ahead anyway. Good for them. If everyone in this country had listened exclusively to Donald Trump, we would be in even far worse shape than we are. And where we are now is certainly nothing to brag about. Trump is a disaster. Everyone who actually knows anything knows that. We did not have to be where we are in this. The failure is on his doorstep, no matter how much he tries to shoo it away. When did Dr. Fauci or any of the other actual medical professionals in the administration say that testing was bad and that we shouldn’t bother with contact tracing? Was this on the CDC website somewhere? Trump has some said some spectacularly stupid things, and those stupid statements have given stupid states cover to do stupid things they would have done anyway. But he also repeatedly put smart people like Dr. Fauci on national TV, And no reasonably intelligent person is going to take the word of a politician over an epidemiologist when it comes to pandemic policy. If you can find evidence that Trump somehow punished Utah for being sensible, then you’d have a point. But absent that, states that are run by incompetent crooks are going to do stupid no matter who’s in the White House. I think your overestimating trumps influence. I'm talking about starting back in February. The first outbreak in the U.S. was in a Kirkland nursing home, outside of Seattle. Doctors here were ordered not to test patients as more and more continued to become ill and die. Those doctors ultimately ignored those orders, leading to what early initial progress was made against this virus. Utah did not even record its first case until two weeks later. We were dealing with this before anyone else in the country, and fighting the administration to do it. Please don't forget that.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 26, 2020 0:09:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure why people are arguing that when you did the stuff we are asking everyone to do now it worked. But it does and it did. But it is a bad situation when the right thing to do is show your president the middle finger and do the opposite of what he's telling you to do. Especially when he is always out to punish those that are "disloyal" to him Not arguing, it’s the smugness of her posting. As if they are totally controlling it, and have done everything right. New Zealand, who has done most things right, still has cases. Europe, which has done better, is still struggling to contain outbreaks. To think they are out of the woods is magical thinking I don’t think we’re out of the woods. But I am confident but the locals at the state county and city level have access to good data and won’t hesitate to shut down the schools or even do another lock down if this flares up again. By the way, can anybody point me to any links showing the president saying that Testing and contact tracing are bad? Because the medical professionals he put in front of the camera sure as hell didn’t.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 26, 2020 0:24:49 GMT -5
Trump has spoken about wanting to slow down testing so that we did not show as many cases. Numerous administration officials scrambled to say he was joking...which he denied. Also, the White House (and presumably the president) tried to cut funding for testing and contact tracing, as well as to block funds to the CDC, the Pentagon, and the State Department's efforts to combat the virus. Instead, Trump was trying to use funds in the bill to build a new FBI building, not-so-coincidentally across the street from his hotel. White House seeks to block funds for coronavirus testing and tracing in relief bill
Remember too that Trump sidelined Dr. Fauci for weeks when Fauci kept telling the truth about the virus, contradicting the president.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 26, 2020 0:42:50 GMT -5
When did Dr. Fauci or any of the other actual medical professionals in the administration say that testing was bad and that we shouldn’t bother with contact tracing? Was this on the CDC website somewhere? Trump has some said some spectacularly stupid things, and those stupid statements have given stupid states cover to do stupid things they would have done anyway. But he also repeatedly put smart people like Dr. Fauci on national TV, And no reasonably intelligent person is going to take the word of a politician over an epidemiologist when it comes to pandemic policy. If you can find evidence that Trump somehow punished Utah for being sensible, then you’d have a point. But absent that, states that are run by incompetent crooks are going to do stupid no matter who’s in the White House. I think your overestimating trumps influence. I'm talking about starting back in February. The first outbreak in the U.S. was in a Kirkland nursing home, outside of Seattle. Doctors here were ordered not to test patients as more and more continued to become ill and die. Those doctors ultimately ignored those orders, leading to what early initial progress was made against this virus. Utah did not even record its first case until two weeks later. We were dealing with this before anyone else in the country, and fighting the administration to do it. Please don't forget that. I won’t. I’m very well aware that it’s pure dumb luck that we only had 50 cases by the middle of March when the lockdown happened. And then after that we had 2 1/2 months to prepare before opening back up again. But ramping up testing capacity and getting access to some decent data so you could make good decisions is something that any state in the middle of the country that is not dirt poor could have done. It floors me that at this point people who have all the symptoms of corona can’t get a test, and if they do get tested it takes two weeks to get the results. That’s just insane. How are you supposed to do any kind of contact tracing with that kind of lag time? My daughter was tested for corona a couple weeks ago. She had a fever, no cough, no other symptoms. Little kids get fevers all the time. And I mentioned that she’s a glue baby so they tested me too. I didn’t have any symptoms. It took less than an hour out of my Saturday morning and by Monday afternoon they called me with the results. I knew it was negative because her fever had already broken by then. Two other friends had the same experience.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 26, 2020 0:52:03 GMT -5
Trump has spoken about wanting to slow down testing so that we did not show as many cases. Numerous administration officials scrambled to say he was joking...which he denied. Also, the White House (and presumably the president) tried to cut funding for testing and contact tracing, as well as to block funds to the CDC, the Pentagon, and the State Department's efforts to combat the virus. Instead, Trump was trying to use funds in the bill to build a new FBI building, not-so-coincidentally across the street from his hotel. White House seeks to block funds for coronavirus testing and tracing in relief bill
Remember too that Trump sidelined Dr. Fauci for weeks when Fauci kept telling the truth about the virus, contradicting the president. The quote in the article said that Trump said we had a lot of cases because we do a lot of testing, and then if we did less testing we would have fewer cases. That’s not the same as saying testing is a bad thing Or the states who actually do testing are going to be punished. My state has had 50 K cases, but only 3000 hospitalizations in around 400 deaths. They have been tracking this since March.The reason for the low hospitalization and death rate isn’t because our doctors are so much more skilled then doctors in other states. We kept corona out of the nursing homes, and are catching a lot of asymptomatic carriers due the contact tracing testing. I don’t think it’s a bad thing but my state has made it ridiculously easy to get tested, but knowing this board, I’m sure somebody is going to claim that I said testing is bad.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 26, 2020 1:03:08 GMT -5
Trump has spoken about wanting to slow down testing so that we did not show as many cases. Numerous administration officials scrambled to say he was joking...which he denied. Also, the White House (and presumably the president) tried to cut funding for testing and contact tracing, as well as to block funds to the CDC, the Pentagon, and the State Department's efforts to combat the virus. Instead, Trump was trying to use funds in the bill to build a new FBI building, not-so-coincidentally across the street from his hotel. White House seeks to block funds for coronavirus testing and tracing in relief bill
Remember too that Trump sidelined Dr. Fauci for weeks when Fauci kept telling the truth about the virus, contradicting the president. The quote in the article said that Trump said we had a lot of cases because we do a lot of testing, and then if we did less testing we would have fewer cases. That’s not the same as saying testing is a bad thing Or the states who actually do testing are going to be punished. But trying to cut funding for testing and tracing is certainly a statement in itself, and that statement is not that testing and tracing are good things. Or do you not see it that way?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 26, 2020 1:16:51 GMT -5
One more thing to keep in mind while promoting the quality of the Utah response: While you are around 40th in population density, you are 24th (of 51 including D.C.) in virus cases per million. I'm not saying that to denigrate Utah, and there are certainly other factors involved, but it does make your case a bit less persuasive.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 26, 2020 2:26:03 GMT -5
One more thing to keep in mind while promoting the quality of the Utah response: While you are around 40th in population density, you are 24th (of 51 including D.C.) in virus cases per million. I'm not saying that to denigrate Utah, and there are certainly other factors involved, but it does make your case a bit less persuasive. 50,000 cases but only 3000 hospitalizations and 400 deaths. If you look at deaths per 100,000 by State, we’re pretty close to the bottom. We kept corona out of the nursing homes, and because testing is so widespread, we’re catching a lot of asymptomatic carriers. Last time I looked at the county data, it looked like nearly 40% of the people testing positive were asymptomatic.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 26, 2020 2:52:08 GMT -5
A benefit of your late start in having to deal with the issue.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 26, 2020 6:19:58 GMT -5
I just can’t believe anyone could think anything other than trump doesn’t tale this crisis seriously. He has not supported Fauci, and at times contradicted his medical opinion. He touts questionable cures. He has repeatedly downplayed the importance of testing. He thinks we are just doing”wonderful”. He pushed opening the economy before it was safe. He is anti-mask, despite his tepid endorsement recently. Anything that is done about this that may harm his standing is criticized. If you don’t see this, you need to take the blinders off.
And you continue to claim leadership doesn’t matter. Trump is in charge. There has never been a president who has been less willing to lead in a crisis than trump
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