djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,099
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 21, 2020 15:51:27 GMT -5
73% of black Americans were descended from slaves.
approximately 0% were descended from slave owners.
the relationship between boss and worker is a milder form of slave-master relationship. the authority is no longer absolute, but it is still there.
Approximately 0% ? yes. approximately. low single digits.
and, while we are getting all mathy, that is under 1% of the US population.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,099
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 21, 2020 15:53:05 GMT -5
My thoughts too. What about all the children that came from owners either raping their slaves, or the supposedly loving relationships between an owner and his property. um....how would those kids not be children of slaves?
and do you seriously think they would NOT be treated as children of slaves?
and that was my entire point.
I will stick with close to 0%, thyme4change
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jan 21, 2020 16:10:15 GMT -5
My thoughts too. What about all the children that came from owners either raping their slaves, or the supposedly loving relationships between an owner and his property. There was a financial incentive to have your female slave give birth, as you now own another slave, which will become valuable at some point in the near future. I believe there is quite a bit of evidence to prove that some black people are descendants of slave owners. Finding your Roots was able to trace Ty Burrell back to a master-slave relationship that produced his 4th great grandmother. Either they lied, or they found the one single family lineage that came from a super rare occurence of white men having sex with slaves, or most likely, it wasn't super uncommon. We have a lot of light skinned black people in this country, and they didn't magically lighten up, and it started long before the civil war. It always interests me though what we consider "Black Americans" and how that may change going forward. It was probably more straightforward the further back you go. One white parent and one black parent tended to equal black, which tended to mean those people had kids with other black people, which meant the "half white half black" quickly trended back towards being more black than white as generations continued. At what point do we get to being so "light skinned" that you stop being black, or that we stop having the label itself which would be great, or that there's a new label (there are, but it still seems people get labeled white or black)?
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,444
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jan 21, 2020 16:20:31 GMT -5
My thoughts too. What about all the children that came from owners either raping their slaves, or the supposedly loving relationships between an owner and his property. There was a financial incentive to have your female slave give birth, as you now own another slave, which will become valuable at some point in the near future. I believe there is quite a bit of evidence to prove that some black people are descendants of slave owners. Finding your Roots was able to trace Ty Burrell back to a master-slave relationship that produced his 4th great grandmother. Either they lied, or they found the one single family lineage that came from a super rare occurence of white men having sex with slaves, or most likely, it wasn't super uncommon. We have a lot of light skinned black people in this country, and they didn't magically lighten up, and it started long before the civil war. It always interests me though what we consider "Black Americans" and how that may change going forward. It was probably more straightforward the further back you go. One white parent and one black parent tended to equal black, which tended to mean those people had kids with other black people, which meant the "half white half black" quickly trended back towards being more black than white as generations continued. At what point do we get to being so "light skinned" that you stop being black, or that we stop having the label itself which would be great, or that there's a new label (there are, but it still seems people get labeled white or black)? All Mixed Up: What Do We Call People Of Multiple Backgrounds?
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,359
|
Post by imawino on Jan 21, 2020 16:28:44 GMT -5
My thoughts too. What about all the children that came from owners either raping their slaves, or the supposedly loving relationships between an owner and his property. There was a financial incentive to have your female slave give birth, as you now own another slave, which will become valuable at some point in the near future. I believe there is quite a bit of evidence to prove that some black people are descendants of slave owners. Finding your Roots was able to trace Ty Burrell back to a master-slave relationship that produced his 4th great grandmother. Either they lied, or they found the one single family lineage that came from a super rare occurence of white men having sex with slaves, or most likely, it wasn't super uncommon. We have a lot of light skinned black people in this country, and they didn't magically lighten up, and it started long before the civil war. I'm sure there is a very small percentage of black Americans who can trace their roots to a slave owner. Ty Burrell is not one of them, because he is not black.
eta: I just saw that hoops commented on this before me. Ty Burrell is definitely white. And it always mystifies me when people complain about how Obama didn't talk about his "white half" enough - as though if he stripped down and turned his back to you, you would be staring at his "white half". Obama had a white mother and white grandparents and he referenced them as much as any other president ever referenced his mom and grandparents. He had a black father and grandparents and also referred to them a normal amount. He talked about being black because he is black. If you were describing him in a police report, he would be referred to as a black man. Full stop, end of story. No one would be saying "I'm positive his mother was white, be sure to draw him in a way that makes everyone aware that he has a white mother". He is a black man, and it made some people uncomfortable that he was black and that he mentioned that he was black, but that's not his problem. If a black person acknowledging that they are black makes someone uncomfortable, they should probably address why that is.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,459
|
Post by billisonboard on Jan 21, 2020 16:35:24 GMT -5
... I'm sure there is a very small percentage of black Americans who can trace their roots to a slave owner. Ty Burrell is not one of them, because he is not black. True that. But Ty Burrell could be one of a very small percentage of white Americans who can trace their roots to a slave/slave owner parentage.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,884
|
Post by happyhoix on Jan 21, 2020 17:23:54 GMT -5
It's interesting that you met a conservative, intelligent and articulate ex banker who's black? stereotype much? I would give him the benefit of the doubt on his story. I still see the two black guys with the Confederate flag on the back of their pickup truck at times, while having coffee at the Casey's gas station in town. I still talk to them a bit when they come in. I was roundly criticized for bringing them up as not real, or you're claiming to have black friends etc, in those Confederate flag threads a while back. When I lived in Illinois, my friend/neighbor 2 doors down in an urban area was black and a doctor, chiropractor/medical examiner. He moved to Minnesota in 1998 (snowmobile nut, lol), I moved to Arkansas in 2000, we're not in contact anymore but we spent a lot of time together when were close neighbors. You missed my point. I don't doubt that he has a conservative black friends. I do, too. If you think all black people are liberals and hate Trump, it's as stupid as saying all blacks eat fried chicken and watermelon. I found out today there were actually Jews and Muslims who were part of the Nazi party. People are very diverse. All people.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,401
|
Post by thyme4change on Jan 21, 2020 17:30:27 GMT -5
Define black
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,459
|
Post by billisonboard on Jan 21, 2020 17:36:17 GMT -5
Define black ... I don't follow the British royal family but did have to check things out when I saw a headline about there being a racial aspect to the current issues. I never would have guessed.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,099
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 21, 2020 17:55:49 GMT -5
race is a false construct.
racism isn't, tho.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,401
|
Post by thyme4change on Jan 21, 2020 19:18:12 GMT -5
My thoughts too. What about all the children that came from owners either raping their slaves, or the supposedly loving relationships between an owner and his property. um....how would those kids not be children of slaves?
and do you seriously think they would NOT be treated as children of slaves?
and that was my entire point.
I will stick with close to 0%, thyme4change
How are they not descendants of slave owners? It takes two to tango.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,401
|
Post by thyme4change on Jan 21, 2020 19:23:01 GMT -5
My thoughts too. What about all the children that came from owners either raping their slaves, or the supposedly loving relationships between an owner and his property. There was a financial incentive to have your female slave give birth, as you now own another slave, which will become valuable at some point in the near future. I believe there is quite a bit of evidence to prove that some black people are descendants of slave owners. Finding your Roots was able to trace Ty Burrell back to a master-slave relationship that produced his 4th great grandmother. Either they lied, or they found the one single family lineage that came from a super rare occurence of white men having sex with slaves, or most likely, it wasn't super uncommon. We have a lot of light skinned black people in this country, and they didn't magically lighten up, and it started long before the civil war. I'm sure there is a very small percentage of black Americans who can trace their roots to a slave owner. Ty Burrell is not one of them, because he is not black.
eta: I just saw that hoops commented on this before me. Ty Burrell is definitely white. And it always mystifies me when people complain about how Obama didn't talk about his "white half" enough - as though if he stripped down and turned his back to you, you would be staring at his "white half". Obama had a white mother and white grandparents and he referenced them as much as any other president ever referenced his mom and grandparents. He had a black father and grandparents and also referred to them a normal amount. He talked about being black because he is black. If you were describing him in a police report, he would be referred to as a black man. Full stop, end of story. No one would be saying "I'm positive his mother was white, be sure to draw him in a way that makes everyone aware that he has a white mother". He is a black man, and it made some people uncomfortable that he was black and that he mentioned that he was black, but that's not his problem. If a black person acknowledging that they are black makes someone uncomfortable, they should probably address why that is.
You are correct that a very small number of black Americand can TRACE their roots, because slaves were not recorded as people. Very few black Americans can get their heritage from before the civil war. Slave owners did not claim their children with a birth announcement in the newspaper. It doesn't mean that child isn't made of the slave owner's DNA. I feel like there is a denial of what happened going on here. Slave owners absolutely raped their slaves and it resulted in children. You not accepting it won't change that fact. I believe it should be part of the conversation.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,359
|
Post by imawino on Jan 21, 2020 19:51:57 GMT -5
Define black I am certainly not comfortable defining black for everyone. And there are plenty of people whose race is ambiguous, in terms of their appearance. It may or may not be ambiguous to them and how they feel about themselves, that's not for me to decide.
But I am completely comfortable defining Ty Burrell as not black. If you have 2 white parents, 4 white grandparents, 8 white great grandparents, 16 white great-great grandparents, 32 white great-great-great grandparents, 63 white great-great-great-great parents and one black ancestor that never entered your consciousness because it took a dna test and a tv program to figure it out for you, you're white. If 100% of the people who look at you have absolutely no desire to apply a negative stereotype to you because of the color of your skin, you're not black. If you talk like a regular human being and yet someone feels compelled to point out with surprise that you are "so articulate" you're probably black. I mean honestly, who didn't realize that after Coyote pointed out he talked to someone articulate, the "surprise twist" was going to be that he was black?! ugh. The racism of low expectations.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,099
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 21, 2020 19:55:40 GMT -5
um....how would those kids not be children of slaves?
and do you seriously think they would NOT be treated as children of slaves?
and that was my entire point.
I will stick with close to 0%, thyme4change
How are they not descendants of slave owners? It takes two to tango. sure, if you consider rape and tango "equivalent".
what OC claimed is that US blacks were descended from slave owners.
how I read that comment (perhaps wrongly) is that US blacks once owned slaves.
that is approximately 0% true. US blacks might have the blood of slave owners in them, but that does not give them any sense of entitlement or superiority. rather, if anything, it furthers their victimhood.
is that clearer?
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,359
|
Post by imawino on Jan 21, 2020 20:00:51 GMT -5
I'm sure there is a very small percentage of black Americans who can trace their roots to a slave owner. Ty Burrell is not one of them, because he is not black.
eta: I just saw that hoops commented on this before me. Ty Burrell is definitely white. And it always mystifies me when people complain about how Obama didn't talk about his "white half" enough - as though if he stripped down and turned his back to you, you would be staring at his "white half". Obama had a white mother and white grandparents and he referenced them as much as any other president ever referenced his mom and grandparents. He had a black father and grandparents and also referred to them a normal amount. He talked about being black because he is black. If you were describing him in a police report, he would be referred to as a black man. Full stop, end of story. No one would be saying "I'm positive his mother was white, be sure to draw him in a way that makes everyone aware that he has a white mother". He is a black man, and it made some people uncomfortable that he was black and that he mentioned that he was black, but that's not his problem. If a black person acknowledging that they are black makes someone uncomfortable, they should probably address why that is.
You are correct that a very small number of black Americand can TRACE their roots, because slaves were not recorded as people. Very few black Americans can get their heritage from before the civil war. Slave owners did not claim their children with a birth announcement in the newspaper. It doesn't mean that child isn't made of the slave owner's DNA. I feel like there is a denial of what happened going on here. Slave owners absolutely raped their slaves and it resulted in children. You not accepting it won't change that fact. I believe it should be part of the conversation. I'm not really sure where this is coming from. I absolutely accept that some slave owners committed rape, and many other acts of violence and inhumanity. I just don't think that finding that out would suddenly entitle anyone who never previously identified as black to claim any ownership of black experience. I look white. No one has ever treated me as anything other than white. But, my mother was adopted and had no idea of any of her heritage and my dad's family lineage is farmers from Georgia. It actually would not be remotely shocking to find out that one of my parent's parent's parent's parent's parent's was not white. I would never ever dream of claiming that I am anything other than white though. I know nothing of any experience other than being white, and I would be a real asshole if I pretended that I suddenly did.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,444
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jan 21, 2020 20:14:54 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 26, 2024 23:06:45 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 12:35:54 GMT -5
It didn't. (bolded) It's just one of the things that made Obama a very divisive president. My feelings on what he did were somewhat 'meh'. Glad to hear that it didn't make you uncomfortable. Yet you claim it did so for white Americans. Why? And if it did make them uncomfortable why do you think that is a bad/divisive thing? Introspection is needed in a society as divided as ours if we ever want to become less divided. The status quo will never get us there You will have to show me were 'I' made this claim.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 26, 2024 23:06:45 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 12:39:28 GMT -5
yes. approximately. low single digits.
and, while we are getting all mathy, that is under 1% of the US population.
Approximately 0% approximately. low single digits. OK ?
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jan 22, 2020 12:42:24 GMT -5
yes. approximately. low single digits.
and, while we are getting all mathy, that is under 1% of the US population.
Approximately 0% approximately. low single digits. OK ? 49% is approximately 0% if you round it correctly!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 26, 2024 23:06:45 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 12:55:36 GMT -5
I would give him the benefit of the doubt on his story. I still see the two black guys with the Confederate flag on the back of their pickup truck at times, while having coffee at the Casey's gas station in town. I still talk to them a bit when they come in. I was roundly criticized for bringing them up as not real, or you're claiming to have black friends etc, in those Confederate flag threads a while back. When I lived in Illinois, my friend/neighbor 2 doors down in an urban area was black and a doctor, chiropractor/medical examiner. He moved to Minnesota in 1998 (snowmobile nut, lol), I moved to Arkansas in 2000, we're not in contact anymore but we spent a lot of time together when were close neighbors. You missed my point. I don't doubt that he has a conservative black friends. I do, too. If you think all black people are liberals and hate Trump, it's as stupid as saying all blacks eat fried chicken and watermelon. I found out today there were actually Jews and Muslims who were part of the Nazi party. People are very diverse. All people. I've never thought this. (bolded) I really don't do the stereotyping thing.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,099
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 22, 2020 14:36:40 GMT -5
Approximately 0% approximately. low single digits. OK ? 49% is approximately 0% if you round it correctly! ibid
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,099
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 22, 2020 14:40:03 GMT -5
yes. approximately. low single digits.
and, while we are getting all mathy, that is under 1% of the US population.
Approximately 0% approximately. low single digits. OK ? significant figures. I am estimating to the nearest 10%, so less than 5% is what I am saying.
it seems a shame that we waste so much time over trivial shit like this.
let's please get back to talking about the systemic disadvantages that blacks have, please.
either that, or count me out of this discussion.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,884
|
Post by happyhoix on Jan 22, 2020 19:27:34 GMT -5
You missed my point. I don't doubt that he has a conservative black friends. I do, too. If you think all black people are liberals and hate Trump, it's as stupid as saying all blacks eat fried chicken and watermelon. I found out today there were actually Jews and Muslims who were part of the Nazi party. People are very diverse. All people. I've never thought this. (bolded) I really don't do the stereotyping thing. I didn't say you did. My comment was directed to OC. I don't know why you jumped in, other than that you misconstrued what I said and wanted to bitch about it.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,401
|
Post by thyme4change on Jan 22, 2020 20:44:26 GMT -5
Approximately 0% approximately. low single digits. OK ? significant figures. I am estimating to the nearest 10%, so less than 5% is what I am saying.
it seems a shame that we waste so much time over trivial shit like this.
let's please get back to talking about the systemic disadvantages that blacks have, please.
either that, or count me out of this discussion.
Were we talking about systemic racism, or were we talking about if the black vote could swing the Presidential election in 2020? I'm just not sure how far back we get to go by declaring the desire to do so.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,099
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 23, 2020 14:17:19 GMT -5
significant figures. I am estimating to the nearest 10%, so less than 5% is what I am saying.
it seems a shame that we waste so much time over trivial shit like this.
let's please get back to talking about the systemic disadvantages that blacks have, please.
either that, or count me out of this discussion.
Were we talking about systemic racism, or were we talking about if the black vote could swing the Presidential election in 2020? I'm just not sure how far back we get to go by declaring the desire to do so. I think both of those would fall under the thread title.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 26, 2024 23:06:45 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 8:00:13 GMT -5
I've never thought this. (bolded) I really don't do the stereotyping thing. I didn't say you did. My comment was directed to OC. I don't know why you jumped in, other than that you misconstrued what I said and wanted to bitch about it. I will comment on posts at times. Don't really consider it jumping in. I didn't misconstrue anything. I've seen OC piled onto quite a few times.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 26, 2024 23:06:45 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 8:01:30 GMT -5
Were we talking about systemic racism, or were we talking about if the black vote could swing the Presidential election in 2020? I'm just not sure how far back we get to go by declaring the desire to do so. I think both of those would fall under the thread title. So would questioning the %'s in relation to this.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jan 24, 2020 15:20:12 GMT -5
Some black people just can't catch a break. Even if you win, you lose. Bank calls cops on black man for trying to cash check he was awarded in a racial discrimination lawsuit After suing his employer for racial discrimination, Sauntore Thomas settled out of court. But when he tried to cash his settlement check at a bank in Livonia, Michigan, bank employees called the cops — who then initiated a fraud investigation. Now Thomas is suing the bank, according to the Detroit Free Press. According to Thomas, TCF Bank in Livonia “mistreated and humiliated” when they called the police on him. According to police, the bank’s system flagged the check as fraudulent — a claim that Thomas disputes, saying that the check cleared 12 hours later after he brought it to another bank that same day. www.rawstory.com/2020/01/bank-calls-cops-on-black-man-for-trying-to-cash-check-he-was-awarded-in-a-racial-discrimination-lawsuit/?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral
|
|