djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 9:48:37 GMT -5
say that to the widow whose husband was killed in Iraq. or the wife whose babydaddy fled, fell ill, or became disabled. and then, there is a place like MS, where you can't abort even if you are raped, according to law.
not every circumstances is choice, OC. sometimes, you are just unlucky.
and if you are unlucky, then what? tough tittie?
The more conservative thinkers on this thread seems to be fixated on the idea that they are doing fine, everyone they know are doing fine, and that the rest of the posters on this board are probably doing fine, therefore, everything is fine.
The more left leaning posters seem to be looking at the big picture - the salary stagnation, the increase in living expenses, the increasing number of kids, women and the elderly living in poverty, the continuous drain of the wealth of the nation into the hands of a very limited number of elites, and speculating, with dread, what the future will hold, if these trends continue.
have any of them traveled to the city lately?
if they did, the would notice the homeless encampments growing by the week. 20 years ago, I never saw ANY tents out on the street. NONE. the homeless, if they did sleep on the street, just curled up into a little ball, and there were far fewer of them. now there are literally hundreds of homeless people out there, maybe thousands. tent cities are springing up everywhere.
are we really so inured to the growing problem of complete and utter loss of living standards for the poor that we can no longer see it?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jul 1, 2019 9:57:36 GMT -5
60,000 homeless in LA.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 10:03:05 GMT -5
it is a heartbreaking problem.
in Oakland, where I travel regularly, they are under every overpass, and now are setting up camp in the city. on the block near my girlfriend's house, there is a row which used to have 3 tents. in the six months I have known her, there are now at least 10 tents and several cars, and it stretches nearly the entire block.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 10:13:53 GMT -5
We don't have ANY homeless here. None at all. I think they are all living in Portland, where I am sure they are very well taken care of. Well then, that's done and good night Dear. Sweet dreams. you should go have a listen to "there is no depression in New Zealand" by BlamBlamBlam.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 10:32:15 GMT -5
the guy that fronts that band (McGlashan) played Euphonium in high school. he is one HELL of a songwriter. seriously. one of the best I have ever heard. that band had one album (really) and it pretty much bankrupted the label. they put everything they had into that record, and it didn't sell. but it is a great record.
edit: if you want to hear something more modern that makes my point, try "I will not let you down" by Don McGlashan or "White Valiant" by the Muttonbirds.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Jul 1, 2019 10:45:25 GMT -5
You're right I don't get it. Who cares about what others are getting. You make your own way in this world. Middle class is running in place ok so what they are still living good. I dont' care if a CEO gets 600 million a year and the lowest guy gets minimum wage sweeping the floor. Odds are there are many other positions in the company where people are paid a good salary. Its up to the people to earn their way to get there. Interesting philosophy. Because I have a bed to sleep in and food to eat, I need to stop bitching, I guess?
Here is why I care how much others are getting. Every decade in the past century, except for the great depression, the very top economic tier in this country has accumulated more and more wealth, while the other classes slowly lose it. This means that my dad, with a BS degree, was able to support a SAHW and four kids, pay for college for all of them, and have a nice house and good lifestyle. He enjoyed a nice pension and had 3 x more time off than I ever had. All of my siblings and their spouses have worked full time, for jobs (for most of us) that don't have pensions, and due to exponentially rising health care, housing and tuition costs, enjoy either a similar or reduced lifestyle than my parents. I don't know about other middle class parents, but I certainly worry about my son and his wife, and how their children will do, if this century long trend continues.
Even if my own grandkids can work hard and maintain an equivalent lifestyle thirty years from now, how many other kids of their generation will be doing worse? How long can this steadily increasing wealth gap continue, before the lower 90% of the economic spectrum get tired of working so hard and still coming up worse than their parents did, before they get sick of the inequality and thrust us into chaos?
You're thinking too personally. You think you've done well, and that's all that matters. You need to think about how everyone is doing, and how their kids and grandkids will do, if you care anything at all about this country continuing on as a capitalistic democracy.
There is always going to be people who have more fortune...that is just the way it. At the same time we all have the same opportunity to thrive in this great country you see it all the time, look at Ben Carson a success story. I know ut is not that people are just lazy. They may not have the ability to mentally advance themselves and never get past flipping burgers. I don't think there is an answer that will benefit everyone. The vast majority can work harder
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jul 1, 2019 10:54:38 GMT -5
it is a heartbreaking problem.
in Oakland, where I travel regularly, they are under every overpass, and now are setting up camp in the city. on the block near my girlfriend's house, there is a row which used to have 3 tents. in the six months I have known her, there are now at least 10 tents and several cars, and it stretches nearly the entire block.
DJ...just in Oakland for the last 4 days and drove by numerous encampments.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 10:56:57 GMT -5
it is a heartbreaking problem.
in Oakland, where I travel regularly, they are under every overpass, and now are setting up camp in the city. on the block near my girlfriend's house, there is a row which used to have 3 tents. in the six months I have known her, there are now at least 10 tents and several cars, and it stretches nearly the entire block.
DJ...just in Oakland for the last 4 days and drove by numerous encampments. I am sad seeing ONE homeless person. this problem- the growth of it- is deeply unsettling.
I would imagine that I am not alone in that feeling.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Jul 1, 2019 10:59:11 GMT -5
We don't see homelessness in our smaller communities but it is here. They bunk with friends and relatives then have to move on. We have low income housing and senior housing that helps a lot. They just added 40 new units in our community for housing that was torn down. but its all over 55 or disabled so doesn't help the younger ones.
The rentals here are substandard, my hubs and I are all for making our rental housing here have certain standards. We hear of people with no heat, water issues, leaking roofs. We went to look at one for sale that had a big hole in the bathroom floor they were literally stepping around. And they are paying rent for places they can't afford to heat or cool.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 11:03:37 GMT -5
There is always going to be people who have more fortune...that is just the way it. At the same time we all have the same opportunity to thrive in this great country you see it all the time, look at Ben Carson a success story. I know ut is not that people are just lazy. They may not have the ability to mentally advance themselves and never get past flipping burgers. I don't think there is an answer that will benefit everyone. The vast majority can work harder I am sure that the same was said in feudal societies. I am sure that the same was said by slave owners. economic systems are not immortal. they are born, they reach their peak, and they decline into obscurity. there is no reason to think this won't happen with capitalism. there is every reason to think that it will. the evidence is overwhelming. I know it is not popular to think so, but thinking otherwise is just lazy. people need to mentally advance themselves.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 11:05:09 GMT -5
We don't see homelessness in our smaller communities but it is here. They bunk with friends and relatives then have to move on. We have low income housing and senior housing that helps a lot. They just added 40 new units in our community for housing that was torn down. but its all over 55 or disabled so doesn't help the younger ones. The rentals here are substandard, my hubs and I are all for making our rental housing here have certain standards. We hear of people with no heat, water issues, leaking roofs. We went to look at one for sale that had a big hole in the bathroom floor they were literally stepping around. And they are paying rent for places they can't afford to heat or cool. imo, we are in an end game right now.
we can sit around and babble about how great things are, but they are not great for the 20%, and they are getting worse.
it is unsustainable, imo. something has to give.
or someone.
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 1, 2019 11:18:52 GMT -5
We don't see homelessness in our smaller communities but it is here. They bunk with friends and relatives then have to move on. We have low income housing and senior housing that helps a lot. They just added 40 new units in our community for housing that was torn down. but its all over 55 or disabled so doesn't help the younger ones. The rentals here are substandard, my hubs and I are all for making our rental housing here have certain standards. We hear of people with no heat, water issues, leaking roofs. We went to look at one for sale that had a big hole in the bathroom floor they were literally stepping around. And they are paying rent for places they can't afford to heat or cool. imo, we are in an end game right now.
we can sit around and babble about how great things are, but they are not great for the 20%, and they are getting worse.
it is unsustainable, imo. something has to give.
or someone.
I think the only question now is if it will end with a bang or a whimper.
I hope before it gets too bad the country will agree to divide itself into various different smaller countries. People can choose if they want to live in a Red area run by a religious tribunal or in the blue areas, which will self govern with some form of democracy.
Each area can sink or swim based on their ability to produce goods and services in demand by the other areas. I think the Red areas will be in for a shock when they realize how much they've been propped up by subsidies from the Blue areas, but hey, they'll have their mandatory religious requirements, no gays, no divorce, no BC choices for the women - it will be an evangelical dream come true, even if they are a lot poorer.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 13:17:19 GMT -5
imo, we are in an end game right now.
we can sit around and babble about how great things are, but they are not great for the 20%, and they are getting worse.
it is unsustainable, imo. something has to give.
or someone.
I think the only question now is if it will end with a bang or a whimper.
I hope before it gets too bad the country will agree to divide itself into various different smaller countries. People can choose if they want to live in a Red area run by a religious tribunal or in the blue areas, which will self govern with some form of democracy.
Each area can sink or swim based on their ability to produce goods and services in demand by the other areas. I think the Red areas will be in for a shock when they realize how much they've been propped up by subsidies from the Blue areas, but hey, they'll have their mandatory religious requirements, no gays, no divorce, no BC choices for the women - it will be an evangelical dream come true, even if they are a lot poorer.
there is another solution, but there is not a WHIFF of it happening here:
that we get to work fixing the chronic excesses of our system, and work toward a sustainable future before it is DEMANDED of us.
I doubt that will happen, for an abundance of reasons.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Jul 1, 2019 13:24:53 GMT -5
Even my husband who always thought I was way wrong has said its going to get so bad you may have people try anarchy. Can they succeed, well no, but it will just throw the whole country into total fighting and chaos. Of course that will bring out the worst in gangs and marginalized people. Those that have nothing to lose won't care if those of us that do lose it all.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 13:31:56 GMT -5
Even my husband who always thought I was way wrong has said its going to get so bad you may have people try anarchy. Can they succeed, well no, but it will just throw the whole country into total fighting and chaos. Of course that will bring out the worst in gangs and marginalized people. Those that have nothing to lose won't care if those of us that do lose it all. FDR got together with unions to bring big business to the table and negotiate the New Deal, higher taxes, and federal work programs. the threat was basically that if businesses and the wealthy didn't cooperate, that we would have something similar to the Spanish Civil War.
a) there is no FDR in the current field of presidential candidates b) unions are a pale shadow of what they were in 1930 c) there is nowhere NEAR the unrest that there was in the 30's. in fact, 40% seem to be ecstatic.
that is why I think it is over. no leadership, no effective counterweight to oligarchy, and an apathetic public that seem to have no idea that they are resting in a pot of boiling water.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2019 13:36:04 GMT -5
That can all change so quickly though. Of course, the more desperate people are the more dangerous they become. the gerrymandering thing really hurt the chances.
2020 is the year. it might be do or die.
edit: actually, not to wish for bad things, but a ripsaw downturn might change things pretty quickly, too.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Jul 1, 2019 14:20:25 GMT -5
Maybe so many people are on drugs now and giving the masses marijuana is making them where they just don't give a damn.
My husband is up in arms over the kids at the border and can't understand how good people are not boiling over with what is being done with them? What is the matter with us, we fought wars to free people and now we are letting trump sink our country.
I was hoping the dems would offer real change. But with the give illegals healthcare they just lost me. What hope I had just kind of went out the window, right now I am totally disillusioned with all of it, both parties. What the hell?
I guess hopes and prayers, forcing women to have kids, dumbing down the educational system and all is what people want.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 1, 2019 22:50:44 GMT -5
No one put them there except themselves. say that to the widow whose husband was killed in Iraq. or the wife whose babydaddy fled, fell ill, or became disabled. and then, there is a place like MS, where you can't abort even if you are raped, according to law.
not every circumstances is choice, OC. sometimes, you are just unlucky.
and if you are unlucky, then what? tough tittie?
For the woman who's husband if they were even married, the government sends her a check each month. If the baby daddy fled.. then that was a choice she made when she screwed him.
Disables S.S will step in, Aid to Dependent Children. if you live in MS,, you are screwed anyway. And if you are lucky because of good choices,,, then every one wants part of your good choice luck, to cover the mistakes they made.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 1, 2019 22:52:52 GMT -5
Real-estate tycoon Donald Trump argued during the Tuesday-night Fox Business Network debate that US wages are "too high," and he didn't back off the next morning when pressed. "We have to become competitive with the world. Our taxes are too high, our wages are too high. Everything is too high. We have to compete with other countries."
The leading Republican presidential candidate raised eyebrows with his initial comment, which was in response to a question about raising the minimum wage. i have long known that Trump wants to turn the US into a third world shithole.
what does MAGA stand for again?
edit: it might be good to ask Trump whether he thinks Germany and Japan are competitive. because, if so, their wages and taxes are far higher than ours.
Here is what I know, under Trump's rule,, I have done well. Sorry if you have made some poor choices.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2019 23:02:33 GMT -5
Correlation does not equal causation. I was able to retire early because of what happened during Obama's administration. I don't credit him for it. Why do you credit Trump?
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 2, 2019 7:56:36 GMT -5
say that to the widow whose husband was killed in Iraq. or the wife whose babydaddy fled, fell ill, or became disabled. and then, there is a place like MS, where you can't abort even if you are raped, according to law.
not every circumstances is choice, OC. sometimes, you are just unlucky.
and if you are unlucky, then what? tough tittie?
For the woman who's husband if they were even married, the government sends her a check each month. If the baby daddy fled.. then that was a choice she made when she screwed him.
Disables S.S will step in, Aid to Dependent Children. if you live in MS,, you are screwed anyway. And if you are lucky because of good choices,,, then every one wants part of your good choice luck, to cover the mistakes they made.
You're missing the concept of 'luck.'
I didn't chose my parents, I got lucky that my dad earned enough he could support me and pay for me to go to college.
I didn't chose to be born in American, I got lucky and wasn't born in Somalia or Russia.
I didn't chose to be born into a middle class family, I got lucky I wasn't born into a poor family and had to drop out of school to work at a young age to help support the family.
I didn't pick a dad who was healthy enough to work full time until retirement, I got lucky. I didn't chose to be smart enough I could get a STEM degree at college, I had lucky genes. I wasn't able to chose to have a perfectly healthy son who was able to go to college and become self supporting, I got lucky I didn't end up having to support a disabled child, or have to stay home to take care of him.
You're congratulating yourself for how well you've done because of your good choices - I think you're overlooking just how lucky you have been.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 2, 2019 8:37:35 GMT -5
OK, I agree your entire life is based on luck,, not your successes or good choices.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 2, 2019 10:14:20 GMT -5
say that to the widow whose husband was killed in Iraq. or the wife whose babydaddy fled, fell ill, or became disabled. and then, there is a place like MS, where you can't abort even if you are raped, according to law.
not every circumstances is choice, OC. sometimes, you are just unlucky.
and if you are unlucky, then what? tough tittie?
For the woman who's husband if they were even married, the government sends her a check each month. If the baby daddy fled.. then that was a choice she made when she screwed him.
everyone who has kids makes this choice. it was HIS choice to leave her, not HERS. baby daddy might have been all sugar and promises. are you saying that a person who believes a liar is accountable and the liar is not?
that seems pretty unfair to me.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 2, 2019 10:15:14 GMT -5
And if you are lucky because of good choices,,, then every one wants part of your good choice luck, to cover the mistakes they made.
that is how insurance works, OC. do you have a problem with insurance?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 2, 2019 10:16:14 GMT -5
i have long known that Trump wants to turn the US into a third world shithole.
what does MAGA stand for again?
edit: it might be good to ask Trump whether he thinks Germany and Japan are competitive. because, if so, their wages and taxes are far higher than ours.
Here is what I know, under Trump's rule,, I have done well. Sorry if you have made some poor choices.
here is what I know: you love to make discussions about yourself and other people rather than sticking to the point.
is this your way of admitting you have lost the argument?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 2, 2019 10:19:14 GMT -5
OK, I agree your entire life is based on luck,, not your successes or good choices. nobody's life is based ENTIRELY on luck OR good choices. if you think so, you are not sufficiently thankful for your blessings, imo. we have a word for such people. but I won't use it, here.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 2, 2019 10:33:50 GMT -5
Here is what I know, under Trump's rule,, I have done well. Sorry if you have made some poor choices.
here is what I know: you love to make discussions about yourself and other people rather than sticking to the point.
is this your way of admitting you have lost the argument?
Giving too much credit again. Not even interested in the argument.
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 2, 2019 12:43:38 GMT -5
OK, I agree your entire life is based on luck,, not your successes or good choices. Never said that.
People who think they are successful based entirely on their own hard work are fooling themselves. We all got here on a combination of hard work, good luck, and the ability (or the good luck to have friends who can help) to weather episodes of bad luck.
If you understand that it only takes one instance of really bad luck - the birth of a disabled kid, the early death of a spouse, a road accident that keeps you from being able to work - to upset your happy apple cart, you'll have more empathy for people who are struggling.
If you keep insisting poor people are lazy and get what they deserve - well, hopefully karma won't smite you and upset your happy apple cart just to prove to you that bad things happen to good people.
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2019 13:43:49 GMT -5
OK, I agree your entire life is based on luck,, not your successes or good choices. Never said that.
People who think they are successful based entirely on their own hard work are fooling themselves. We all got here on a combination of hard work, good luck, and the ability (or the good luck to have friends who can help) to weather episodes of bad luck.
If you understand that it only takes one instance of really bad luck - the birth of a disabled kid, the early death of a spouse, a road accident that keeps you from being able to work - to upset your happy apple cart, you'll have more empathy for people who are struggling.
If you keep insisting poor people are lazy and get what they deserve - well, hopefully karma won't smite you and upset your happy apple cart just to prove to you that bad things happen to good people.
I read about this in The Ghost Map which talks about the cholera epidemic in England back in the 19th century. When we get far enough removed from basic survival instead of recognizing our good fortune we start to attribute it all to solely pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. I got here because I am rich/smart/white/driven/healthy enough. YOU are where you are at because you are clearly immoral. If I acknowledge that you did not have the same opportunities then that means I have to face the fact/fear that I too am one step away from becoming you. It's elitism pure and simple. Since human beings aren't good at doing that we convince ourselves it was all our hard work and look for the "evidence" to support that. Politicians then feed and feed on the ego. It's the same thing with Anti-vaxxers. We've become so far removed from these diseases being a death sentence in this country that we have started being elitist about it. Only dirty brown immigrants need vaccinations. I am educated/rich/white enough that my own constitution is all I need to combat measles. The pendulum will swing the other direction eventually, all you have to do is read your history to know what is coming next. We're at the stage where we could reverse course but we won't because humans are stupid.
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 2, 2019 13:54:38 GMT -5
i have long known that Trump wants to turn the US into a third world shithole.
what does MAGA stand for again?
edit: it might be good to ask Trump whether he thinks Germany and Japan are competitive. because, if so, their wages and taxes are far higher than ours.
Here is what I know, under Trump's rule,, I have done well. Sorry if you have made some poor choices.
Of course, it's all about YOU. It's always about YOU, and screw everyone else. They can go hungry and live in the street. Who cares? Certainly not YOU, because YOU have done well. Typical Republican.
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