emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 17, 2018 12:39:59 GMT -5
Gotta love the media finding one of the more extreme examples of PLSF program. However, I think it's a critical important program, especially if we are going to continue to expect to pay people who are social workers, teachers, cops, etc., peanuts.
Social workers in my area are typically paid less than 40k a year. And for that wage, those social workers must have not only a bachelor's degree, but also a master's degree in social work. The work they do is really difficult. In my state social workers have case loads that are completely unreasonable. The very least we can do is offer them forgiveness on their student loans.
To me PLSF is like any government program. Sure there will always be a very small minority who manage to take advantage or abuse the program, but the good it does far outweighs the bad.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 17, 2018 12:42:29 GMT -5
No. But I am pointing out that “community service” is a part of all work. If there was no element of community service, a value to the community, from what we do, people wouldn’t be willing to pay us for the work we perform. That, then, begs the question why politicians decided to reward certain people for the choices they have made? If people weren’t willing to do public sector work for the compensation offered for those jobs, why did they take the job in the first place? And why haven’t they changed career paths since their initial employment? Why sweeten the deal on a retroactive basis? The compensation for public sector jobs reflects the value our society places on that work. Just as our society places a value on private sector work. To create a mechanism that rewards the choices of public sector employees well after those choices were made creates the appearance that politicians are using taxpayer money to buy the favor and votes of public sector employees. That smacks of being unfair to private sector members, who are not rewarded by the politicians for the choices that private sector members have made. In fact, private sector members see themselves as being penalized in order to provide rewards for public sector members. This is the source of private sector resentment over education loan forgiveness for public sector members. Thanks for pointing out that my 5 years spent underpaid as an Assistant District ATtorney and a Public Defender were valueless, crap jobs. I'll also tell the child protective case workers who make about $35k to $40k their jobs aren't worth much. Let’s face it, our society places a value on the work that each of us do. The value is a function of the capabilities required, the education required, the supply of qualified employees and the demand for those employees, as well as other factors. For many beginning attorneys, an ADA or public defender role is a training ground that teaches the attorney how to apply the education they have acquired. This leads to a strong supply of prospective employees relative to the number of jobs available. While you believe you were under paid for your efforts as an ADA, I’m pretty sure that you made more than I did as an accountant. Apparently our society values the services of attorneys more than it does the services of accountants. But, my career was my choice. If I had the interest and had been willing to pursue more education, I could have earned an attorney’s pay check, too.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 17, 2018 12:45:40 GMT -5
Did you read the article? I'm pretty sure no one is purposely taking out huge student loans they don't need "know[ing]" the taxpayers will foot the bill. As of 2016, there were only 139 people who had made 97 qualifying payments toward the required 120. There are a lot of people, like Carl's wife, who make some payments and then either lose the qualifying employment or no longer qualify for IBR. There are a lot of other people who were told by the Department of Education that their employment qualified for PSLF and then later told "oops! we changed our mind."
Someone just now entering college or grad school better hope PSLF is still around in 2032 and hope they can get a qualifying job and hope they keep it for 10 years. That's quite a gamble for a questionable payoff.
It'd be way easier (and more fun) to rack up $100K in credit card debt and just declare bankruptcy... then you're back in business in 7 years and aren't tied to a specific employer.
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cktc
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Post by cktc on Jul 17, 2018 12:46:41 GMT -5
The government has been operating at a deficit for years. If you consider the amount collected and spent every year, the vast majority of tax payers are probably getting more out than we put in. Why hone in on one public sector employee getting a break and feel victimized? Why not look at what you have instead? If anyone is a victim it's the public sector workers being denied a benefit based on loop holes. This is a miniscule fraction of government spending. Less than a cent of your money went towards this guys debt.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 17, 2018 13:16:32 GMT -5
Isn't the "10 years of public service for loan forgiveness" just a kind of "job perk"? Work at this lower salary for a big benefit later down the road. You know, a job perk, like tuition reimbursement, maybe like an your employer contributing to a pension (that you do NOT have to contribute to), your employer paying more towards healthcare (to keep your costs down), offering pretax savings for transportation (extra paper work by your employer), any other stuff that's NOT in your Salary number? No one seems upset by the tradeoffs of getting non-salary perks from their employer? The taxpayers aren't footing the bill for any of my employer provided perks. Did your company benefit from tax cuts because the one I work for did? Our share prices are over $1 more per share (2%) because of the recent tax changes. Since we are member owned, including 1% of our salary into a retirement account, it makes a difference.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 17, 2018 14:03:41 GMT -5
Thanks for pointing out that my 5 years spent underpaid as an Assistant District ATtorney and a Public Defender were valueless, crap jobs. I'll also tell the child protective case workers who make about $35k to $40k their jobs aren't worth much. Let’s face it, our society places a value on the work that each of us do. The value is a function of the capabilities required, the education required, the supply of qualified employees and the demand for those employees, as well as other factors. For many beginning attorneys, an ADA or public defender role is a training ground that teaches the attorney how to apply the education they have acquired. This leads to a strong supply of prospective employees relative to the number of jobs available. While you believe you were under paid for your efforts as an ADA, I’m pretty sure that you made more than I did as an accountant. Apparently our society values the services of attorneys more than it does the services of accountants. But, my career was my choice. If I had the interest and had been willing to pursue more education, I could have earned an attorney’s pay check, too. $31,000 to start. 1996. $33,500 when I left in 1999. They now get about $50k
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 17, 2018 20:39:12 GMT -5
Half could quit, and We wouldn't know the difference, from the amount of work they do. I just spent 45 minutes in line at the DMV. I respectfully disagree that their staff should be cut in half!! If it is like the DMV here, how many were actually doing something??
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 17, 2018 21:10:52 GMT -5
The taxpayers aren't footing the bill for any of my employer provided perks. Did your company benefit from tax cuts because the one I work for did? Our share prices are over $1 more per share (2%) because of the recent tax changes. Since we are member owned, including 1% of our salary into a retirement account, it makes a difference. The tax cuts did not provide me $170k worth of employee perks.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 17, 2018 21:12:44 GMT -5
Let’s face it, our society places a value on the work that each of us do. The value is a function of the capabilities required, the education required, the supply of qualified employees and the demand for those employees, as well as other factors. For many beginning attorneys, an ADA or public defender role is a training ground that teaches the attorney how to apply the education they have acquired. This leads to a strong supply of prospective employees relative to the number of jobs available. While you believe you were under paid for your efforts as an ADA, I’m pretty sure that you made more than I did as an accountant. Apparently our society values the services of attorneys more than it does the services of accountants. But, my career was my choice. If I had the interest and had been willing to pursue more education, I could have earned an attorney’s pay check, too. $31,000 to start. 1996. $33,500 when I left in 1999. They now get about $50k Then how is it not worth it for them to jump into a private firm? At a minimum they would have to jump to $100k and I would think well above that. Wouldn't the increase in salary offset loans not forgiven?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 17, 2018 21:22:47 GMT -5
It come from dealing with Public Servants. You make the wrong decision, I will fight at the drop of a hat. Here is the part that I don't understand, when they make a mistake, why do they continue to go down that road, When I have pointed out(Politely) the error of their ways. Only after discussion with different level Supervisors, is a change made! After many battles of which most I have won, (I pick My battles), I know that I got your goat, Because,, I have never had a Public Servant apologize to me for their mistake, So when you go to PUBLIC SERVANT school is one of the first lesson ,,, Don't ever apologize for a mistake,,, Just wondering.
But you are making the choice to be the victim. You are making the choice to be bitter. Why do you want that negativity in your life? You are only responsible for your actions. You can forgive someone workout getting an apology from them. I work in the private sector, but consult directly for municipalities. I work daily with public servants. Some are asshats, others are amazing. Just like the rest of the world or online. Some are asshats and some are amazing. My experience with, "Public Servants" started at a young age, I had applied for car insurance ,, Denied because of a ticket in Pueblo Co. Last time I was in that city I was 14 and not driving a car. I had to go to the downtown Denver license place for Co.to even set up an appointment to see someone.
After a couple of weeks I got an appointment, went in, sat down, He said you have a ticket for running a stop sign and speeding,, I said not me, I have not been in Pueblo since I was 14. Then he said, "Not Your Ticket",, he got up walked down the hall,, left me sitting there!! They still didn't clear this off my record for almost a year,, All the time I was paying super high insurance payments,, because of their screw up.
This is back when I had a young wife and baby,,, with no extra money!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 18, 2018 8:35:37 GMT -5
$31,000 to start. 1996. $33,500 when I left in 1999. They now get about $50k Then how is it not worth it for them to jump into a private firm? At a minimum they would have to jump to $100k and I would think well above that. Wouldn't the increase in salary offset loans not forgiven? You don't start at $100k at a private firm here, or most other places out of large cities/big name firms. It's probably about $60k. After a few years, you move up, but it's slow. And there is no guarantee. You have to be a rainmaker.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jul 18, 2018 8:40:06 GMT -5
Public employees are like Computers and Men - can't live with them and can't live without them. But I have rarely had a problem that wasn't taken care of promptly and to my satisfaction. I often wonder about folks who have non stop on going problems and never ever have a good experience. But that's just me.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 10:29:38 GMT -5
Then how is it not worth it for them to jump into a private firm? At a minimum they would have to jump to $100k and I would think well above that. Wouldn't the increase in salary offset loans not forgiven? You don't start at $100k at a private firm here, or most other places out of large cities/big name firms. It's probably about $60k. After a few years, you move up, but it's slow. And there is no guarantee. You have to be a rainmaker. Then it sounds like there isn't a huge discrepancy in pay between private/public sector then. $10k a year difference can easily be offset in benefits in the public sector (pension versus 401k, number of paid holidays/vacation, health insurance, etc).
People take those positions for the experience. They had no problem filling them before this program and they won't have a problem filling them if the program goes away.
On the flip side, while I am not thrilled about the program I sure as hell would jump at not having student loans if it were the right financial decision for me. I would not intentionally rack up loans nor would I stay in a low-paying job just to get my loans paid. But if I were staying somewhere for the experience anyway, I would take advantage of the loan payoff. That doesn't mean I agree with it.
I can buy into something like this for positions that will always be low-paid - social workers come to mind. But there should be caps on the amounts so we don't have a professional student racking up $130k in student debt for a position that pays $30k a year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 10:43:10 GMT -5
Keep in mind we're talking about around 130 people that have qualified so far. That's not very many and I'm guessing they weren't all sitting on 170K in student loans. Plus, that's not even what he started with and he was making payments for 10 years. Why they require them to sign up for a repayment program that doesn't even cover the interest accrued is beyond me. I'll bet there are a lot more than 130 people out there that started with the intention of doing this that now no longer qualify and are facing loan balances that have ballooned due to being on IBR for a number of years. So, is the program even a net loss when you factor in all the borrowers and the high interest rates?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 18, 2018 11:44:12 GMT -5
You don't start at $100k at a private firm here, or most other places out of large cities/big name firms. It's probably about $60k. After a few years, you move up, but it's slow. And there is no guarantee. You have to be a rainmaker. Then it sounds like there isn't a huge discrepancy in pay between private/public sector then. $10k a year difference can easily be offset in benefits in the public sector (pension versus 401k, number of paid holidays/vacation, health insurance, etc).
People take those positions for the experience. They had no problem filling them before this program and they won't have a problem filling them if the program goes away.
On the flip side, while I am not thrilled about the program I sure as hell would jump at not having student loans if it were the right financial decision for me. I would not intentionally rack up loans nor would I stay in a low-paying job just to get my loans paid. But if I were staying somewhere for the experience anyway, I would take advantage of the loan payoff. That doesn't mean I agree with it.
I can buy into something like this for positions that will always be low-paid - social workers come to mind. But there should be caps on the amounts so we don't have a professional student racking up $130k in student debt for a position that pays $30k a year.
What data do you have that shows there was no problem filling these positions before the program, and that they were able to retain those employees for the length of the time the program runs (10 years I believe) in order to keep good, experienced people in those positions for a decade? Because even if the FORMER is true...that doesn't mean it wasn't just a big turnstyle with people coming in and then leaving a few years in.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 12:40:59 GMT -5
Then it sounds like there isn't a huge discrepancy in pay between private/public sector then. $10k a year difference can easily be offset in benefits in the public sector (pension versus 401k, number of paid holidays/vacation, health insurance, etc).
People take those positions for the experience. They had no problem filling them before this program and they won't have a problem filling them if the program goes away.
On the flip side, while I am not thrilled about the program I sure as hell would jump at not having student loans if it were the right financial decision for me. I would not intentionally rack up loans nor would I stay in a low-paying job just to get my loans paid. But if I were staying somewhere for the experience anyway, I would take advantage of the loan payoff. That doesn't mean I agree with it.
I can buy into something like this for positions that will always be low-paid - social workers come to mind. But there should be caps on the amounts so we don't have a professional student racking up $130k in student debt for a position that pays $30k a year.
What data do you have that shows there was no problem filling these positions before the program, and that they were able to retain those employees for the length of the time the program runs (10 years I believe) in order to keep good, experienced people in those positions for a decade? Because even if the FORMER is true...that doesn't mean it wasn't just a big turnstyle with people coming in and then leaving a few years in. Based on what I can read, there has been no significant decline in public defender turnover. Based on what I read (very quickly) they have overwhelming case loads and below market salaries. Instead of forgiving loans, perhaps we need to increase the budgets to hire adequately and relieve the stress from the existing public defenders.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 14:18:31 GMT -5
What data do you have that shows there was no problem filling these positions before the program, and that they were able to retain those employees for the length of the time the program runs (10 years I believe) in order to keep good, experienced people in those positions for a decade? Because even if the FORMER is true...that doesn't mean it wasn't just a big turnstyle with people coming in and then leaving a few years in. Based on what I can read, there has been no significant decline in public defender turnover. Based on what I read (very quickly) they have overwhelming case loads and below market salaries. Instead of forgiving loans, perhaps we need to increase the budgets to hire adequately and relieve the stress from the existing public defenders. That's a great idea. While you are making magic happen, see if you can get those poor teachers in Oklahoma some chairs that aren't broken. We need to do exactly what you say in many public service fields. But we are cutting taxes, not raising them, in case you haven't noticed.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 14:30:57 GMT -5
Based on what I can read, there has been no significant decline in public defender turnover. Based on what I read (very quickly) they have overwhelming case loads and below market salaries. Instead of forgiving loans, perhaps we need to increase the budgets to hire adequately and relieve the stress from the existing public defenders. That's a great idea. While you are making magic happen, see if you can get those poor teachers in Oklahoma some chairs that aren't broken. We need to do exactly what you say in many public service fields. But we are cutting taxes, not raising them, in case you haven't noticed. Well, how many chairs could we have purchased with the $170k that we forgave for the man in the article?
I do not believe we have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. We waste our tax dollars in so many ways but neglect areas like that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 14:41:38 GMT -5
We owe China 17 trillion and spend 45 billion a year in Afghanistan. Nit-picking things like student loan forgiveness programs makes me think of someone posting a budget where they are making 80K living in a 750K house and have $1500/month in car payments and people zoom in on the $150 cable bill as the problem.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 14:46:26 GMT -5
We owe China 17 trillion and spend 45 billion a year in Afghanistan. Nit-picking things like student loan forgiveness programs makes me think of someone posting a budget where they are making 80K living in a 750K house and have $1500/month in car payments and people zoom in on the $150 cable bill as the problem. Shouldn't we look at all wasteful spending, no matter how big or small?
And I'm all for brining our troops home and saving $45b a year. I'm against any spending that I deem wasteful, no matter how big or small. We do ourselves no favors by getting involved in the middle east.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 14:49:29 GMT -5
That's a great idea. While you are making magic happen, see if you can get those poor teachers in Oklahoma some chairs that aren't broken. We need to do exactly what you say in many public service fields. But we are cutting taxes, not raising them, in case you haven't noticed. Well, how many chairs could we have purchased with the $170k that we forgave for the man in the article?
I do not believe we have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. We waste our tax dollars in so many ways but neglect areas like that.
None. There is a difference between state funds and federal funds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 14:53:21 GMT -5
Personally, I think more help could be given to the students by giving them 0% interest loans. The guy started with 129K, paid 24K and ended up owing 170K.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 14:53:48 GMT -5
Well, how many chairs could we have purchased with the $170k that we forgave for the man in the article?
I do not believe we have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. We waste our tax dollars in so many ways but neglect areas like that.
None. There is a difference between state funds and federal funds. Are you saying the federal government doesn't fund public schools at all?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 18, 2018 14:56:08 GMT -5
We owe China 17 trillion and spend 45 billion a year in Afghanistan. Nit-picking things like student loan forgiveness programs makes me think of someone posting a budget where they are making 80K living in a 750K house and have $1500/month in car payments and people zoom in on the $150 cable bill as the problem. Shouldn't we look at all wasteful spending, no matter how big or small?
And I'm all for brining our troops home and saving $45b a year. I'm against any spending that I deem wasteful, no matter how big or small. We do ourselves no favors by getting involved in the middle east.
well, we kind of had to when the taliban was hiding in Afghanistan and training people to take down WTC, the pentagon, and whatever else their target was. But I agree, it's time to go now.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 14:57:13 GMT -5
Personally, I think more help could be given to the students by giving them 0% interest loans. The guy started with 129K, paid 24K and ended up owing 170K. I think more help could be given to student by giving them financial counseling. No one should be taking on $130k without a damn good career path. and that is my biggest gripe with this program. I'm not against waiving $20k or even $50k for a career that truly has no earning potential. I keep coming back to social workers. They are very underpaid and overworked and very much needed. But knowing there are caps in place might encourage people to make better choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 14:59:04 GMT -5
None. There is a difference between state funds and federal funds. Are you saying the federal government doesn't fund public schools at all? Not capital expenditures like furniture, buildings, etc. The federal government does fund stuff like HeadStart and some other Title I (I think that's the right number) programs. They contribute to the free and reduced-lunch program. That sort of thing. But the nuts and bolts of school? No. That is a state and local responsibility. That's why you have rich school and poor schools, well-paid teachers and poorly-paid teachers. This is true within the same state. But the federal government does a great job at unfunded mandates.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 15:04:30 GMT -5
Are you saying the federal government doesn't fund public schools at all? Not capital expenditures like furniture, buildings, etc. The federal government does fund stuff like HeadStart and some other Title I (I think that's the right number) programs. They contribute to the free and reduced-lunch program. That sort of thing. But the nuts and bolts of school? No. That is a state and local responsibility. That's why you have rich school and poor schools, well-paid teachers and poorly-paid teachers. This is true within the same state. But the federal government does a great job at unfunded mandates. I learned something new today. I know the federal government contributes about 10% to public school funding but I didn't know how it was limited.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 18, 2018 15:19:09 GMT -5
None. There is a difference between state funds and federal funds. Are you saying the federal government doesn't fund public schools at all? Very little and imposes ridiculous rules
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 15:23:32 GMT -5
Personally, I think more help could be given to the students by giving them 0% interest loans. The guy started with 129K, paid 24K and ended up owing 170K. I think more help could be given to student by giving them financial counseling. No one should be taking on $130k without a damn good career path. and that is my biggest gripe with this program. I'm not against waiving $20k or even $50k for a career that truly has no earning potential. I keep coming back to social workers. They are very underpaid and overworked and very much needed. But knowing there are caps in place might encourage people to make better choices. You're preaching to the choir here! I am often floored at the debt people are willing to take on for school, especially for degrees that don't have a great track record for giving a good return on that investment. My kids know that's not how it's going down with them (not with my blessing anyhow), but they also are probably pretty set for having their undergrad paid for. The kids whose parents are clueless about finances and college but make too much for them to get any aid. I do feel for them. So often, it's not until they're in the thick of it and over their heads in debt that they realize they went about it the wrong way.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2018 15:42:25 GMT -5
I think more help could be given to student by giving them financial counseling. No one should be taking on $130k without a damn good career path. and that is my biggest gripe with this program. I'm not against waiving $20k or even $50k for a career that truly has no earning potential. I keep coming back to social workers. They are very underpaid and overworked and very much needed. But knowing there are caps in place might encourage people to make better choices. You're preaching to the choir here! I am often floored at the debt people are willing to take on for school, especially for degrees that don't have a great track record for giving a good return on that investment. My kids know that's not how it's going down with them (not with my blessing anyhow), but they also are probably pretty set for having their undergrad paid for. The kids whose parents are clueless about finances and college but make too much for them to get any aid. I do feel for them. So often, it's not until they're in the thick of it and over their heads in debt that they realize they went about it the wrong way. I can't help but judge everyone based on how I was at 18. I had no one to learn from as my mom is a financial train wreck and I was the first person going to college. But I knew I couldn't dig myself into a huge hole before I even started in the world. Not to say I didn't make some bad choices (dropping out for 2 years being one of them!lol).
I realize there is inflation involved so if I take the $130k back to the year I graduated high school it would put me at $64k in debt. Never in a million years would I have taken on that kind of debt and I had a very good career path planned. I didn't think of myself as a child at 18. I was an adult making decisions that would affect the rest of my life.
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