swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 17, 2018 8:48:23 GMT -5
Public Service jobs, The poor underpaid Public Servant,, really, Why would you take that job if you are so over qualified?? Trial experience. Grand Jury experience. I tried 7 felony cases in 3.5 years as a brand new attorney, over 50 misdemeanors, and 1000's of violations. I put 100's of cases in front of the Grand Jury. I was put in charge of the prison prosecutions. I got to teach at police seminars. Networking. I got to go to homicide scenes and see how the investigations work first hand. As chief public defender, I managed a staff of 7, administered a $500k budget, and kept doing trial work. I never would have gotten that experience in private practice.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 17, 2018 8:49:50 GMT -5
You're right. They should all just quit, who needs them. Half could quit, and We wouldn't know the difference, from the amount of work they do. Why don't you go to your local prosecutors, public defender, child protective, or probation office and follow them around for a day? You might come out with a different opinion. ETA: I'm a big fan of snow plow drivers. Those guys aren't paid nearly enough to go out in crap like that.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 17, 2018 8:51:05 GMT -5
Listen there are costs and benefits to every job. It isn't necessarily a bad decision to take less money. Not everyone can work in the private sector. We need teachers, prosecutors, cops, firefighters, social workers, etc. We need these people. We need people who are willing to serve other people. Life isn't a race to the end and whoever ends up with more wins. You "win" by changing lives. Maybe your calling is designing water systems or running a business or a teacher or a public defender or a social worker. All of those jobs are important. We don't need to put other people down because their strengths are different than yours. So this guy used student loan forgiveness. He still paid on time on his loans for 10 years. You aren't a victim for him using a program the way it was designed to be used. You are right I am not a victim of the person that got the forgiveness, I am the victim of who ever wrote the rule that allowed it! Which was a PUBLIC SERVANT!
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 17, 2018 8:52:03 GMT -5
Nah, it was probably a lobbyist.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 17, 2018 8:52:57 GMT -5
Nah, it was probably a lobbyist. YOU MEAN A PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYEE? NO!!!!!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 17, 2018 8:53:57 GMT -5
Half could quit, and We wouldn't know the difference, from the amount of work they do. Why don't you go to your local prosecutors, public defender, child protective, or probation office and follow them around for a day? You might come out with a different opinion. ETA: I'm a big fan of snow plow drivers. Those guys aren't paid nearly enough to go out in crap like that. What are you trying to do, Win me over with a reasonable argument?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 17, 2018 8:54:46 GMT -5
Why don't you go to your local prosecutors, public defender, child protective, or probation office and follow them around for a day? You might come out with a different opinion. ETA: I'm a big fan of snow plow drivers. Those guys aren't paid nearly enough to go out in crap like that. What are you trying to do, Win me over with a reasonable argument? isn't that how it's supposed to work?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 17, 2018 8:58:00 GMT -5
Listen there are costs and benefits to every job. It isn't necessarily a bad decision to take less money. Not everyone can work in the private sector. We need teachers, prosecutors, cops, firefighters, social workers, etc. We need these people. We need people who are willing to serve other people. Life isn't a race to the end and whoever ends up with more wins. You "win" by changing lives. Maybe your calling is designing water systems or running a business or a teacher or a public defender or a social worker. All of those jobs are important. We don't need to put other people down because their strengths are different than yours. So this guy used student loan forgiveness. He still paid on time on his loans for 10 years. You aren't a victim for him using a program the way it was designed to be used. You are right I am not a victim of the person that got the forgiveness, I am the victim of who ever wrote the rule that allowed it! Which was a PUBLIC SERVANT!
So what good does it do you to be the victim? Why would you give someone that power over you? Why would you want to be bitter?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 17, 2018 9:29:15 GMT -5
You are right I am not a victim of the person that got the forgiveness, I am the victim of who ever wrote the rule that allowed it! Which was a PUBLIC SERVANT!
So what good does it do you to be the victim? Why would you give someone that power over you? Why would you want to be bitter? It come from dealing with Public Servants. You make the wrong decision, I will fight at the drop of a hat. Here is the part that I don't understand, when they make a mistake, why do they continue to go down that road, When I have pointed out(Politely) the error of their ways. Only after discussion with different level Supervisors, is a change made! After many battles of which most I have won, (I pick My battles), I know that I got your goat, Because,, I have never had a Public Servant apologize to me for their mistake, So when you go to PUBLIC SERVANT school is one of the first lesson ,,, Don't ever apologize for a mistake,,, Just wondering.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 9:45:59 GMT -5
So what good does it do you to be the victim? Why would you give someone that power over you? Why would you want to be bitter? It come from dealing with Public Servants. You make the wrong decision, I will fight at the drop of a hat. Here is the part that I don't understand, when they make a mistake, why do they continue to go down that road, When I have pointed out(Politely) the error of their ways. Only after discussion with different level Supervisors, is a change made! After many battles of which most I have won, (I pick My battles), I know that I got your goat, Because,, I have never had a Public Servant apologize to me for their mistake, So when you go to PUBLIC SERVANT school is one of the first lesson ,,, Don't ever apologize for a mistake,,, Just wondering.
Well, I've dealt with awesome public service employees, so I guess my anecdotal evidence cancels out yours.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 17, 2018 10:08:30 GMT -5
So what good does it do you to be the victim? Why would you give someone that power over you? Why would you want to be bitter? It come from dealing with Public Servants. You make the wrong decision, I will fight at the drop of a hat. Here is the part that I don't understand, when they make a mistake, why do they continue to go down that road, When I have pointed out(Politely) the error of their ways. Only after discussion with different level Supervisors, is a change made! After many battles of which most I have won, (I pick My battles), I know that I got your goat, Because,, I have never had a Public Servant apologize to me for their mistake, So when you go to PUBLIC SERVANT school is one of the first lesson ,,, Don't ever apologize for a mistake,,, Just wondering.
But you are making the choice to be the victim. You are making the choice to be bitter. Why do you want that negativity in your life? You are only responsible for your actions. You can forgive someone workout getting an apology from them. I work in the private sector, but consult directly for municipalities. I work daily with public servants. Some are asshats, others are amazing. Just like the rest of the world or online. Some are asshats and some are amazing.
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janee
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Post by janee on Jul 17, 2018 10:13:39 GMT -5
What I don't like about the student loan forgiveness program is that it's not dealing with the problem--the high cost of college.
If a town can educate students for $8-$15K per student, why can't colleges? If you got rid of the high student loan fees from banks (why are they that high if they can't be discharged by bankruptcy, seems like a sure thing!) and made colleges compete price wise by not guaranteeing loans, we might see costs come down.
The head of the state university makes $800K (I'm in New England)--you don't think you could get someone really good for $400K?
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Jul 17, 2018 10:17:40 GMT -5
I don't understand how this is different from the various tax laws that help people shelter their income. There are rules and if you follow the rules, they work. This guy did his due diligence and was rewarded.
If you don't want this to happen, then change the laws. Isn't that what people say all the time when tax laws are discussed?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 17, 2018 10:19:31 GMT -5
What I don't like about the student loan forgiveness program is that it's not dealing with the problem--the high cost of college. If a town can educate students for $8-$15K per student, why can't colleges? If you got rid of the high student loan fees from banks (why are they that high if they can't be discharged by bankruptcy, seems like a sure thing!) and made colleges compete price wise by not guaranteeing loans, we might see costs come down. The head of the state university makes $800K (I'm in New England)--you don't think you could get someone really good for $400K? It's not attempting to deal with that particular problem. It's trying to deal with the problem of people not wanting to go into the public sector. Towns CAN educate students for 8-15k...but students don't want to go there. They want to go to places with big new fancy buildings that cost a bunch of money to build.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 17, 2018 11:12:54 GMT -5
What I don't like about the student loan forgiveness program is that it's not dealing with the problem--the high cost of college. If a town can educate students for $8-$15K per student, why can't colleges? If you got rid of the high student loan fees from banks (why are they that high if they can't be discharged by bankruptcy, seems like a sure thing!) and made colleges compete price wise by not guaranteeing loans, we might see costs come down. The head of the state university makes $800K (I'm in New England)--you don't think you could get someone really good for $400K? It's not attempting to deal with that particular problem. It's trying to deal with the problem of people not wanting to go into the public sector. Towns CAN educate students for 8-15k...but students don't want to go there. They want to go to places with big new fancy buildings that cost a bunch of money to build. How about those of us that use the public sector as a training ground so you can make big buck in the private sector later? Thanks to what i did as a public servant, i can command some pretty good compensation for what I do now.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 17, 2018 11:26:31 GMT -5
It's not attempting to deal with that particular problem. It's trying to deal with the problem of people not wanting to go into the public sector. Towns CAN educate students for 8-15k...but students don't want to go there. They want to go to places with big new fancy buildings that cost a bunch of money to build. How about those of us that use the public sector as a training ground so you can make big buck in the private sector later? Thanks to what i did as a public servant, i can command some pretty good compensation for what I do now. You can argue that there isn't a problem/shortage of people who WANT to go into the public sector. Obviously some see that there is, hence this incentive. I'm simply pointing out that forgiving student loans isn't effective at lowering the cost of education, but it's also not ATTEMPTING to be effective at that. It's attempting to solve an altogether different problem (or a perceived problem, I'm not making any judgments on whether that perceived problem is real or not).
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 17, 2018 11:38:58 GMT -5
IT wasn't 'free' money. He spent 10 years working I presume at a lower wage. He spent 10 years constantly managing his loan(s), his payment, and who ever in the government was handling his paperwork. He took on a lot of risk. He followed all the rules. I didn't say the government BUILT your business. But, I'm pretty sure that much of the taxes you paid benefited your business either directly or indirectly. Even those pesky license fees (which probably prohibited some competition at the very least.) As for regulations costing you money - I'm sure you passed that cost on to those who bought your products/services... atleast I thought that was how it worked. I'm sorry you are bitter. you must have quite a horrible life - what with the government taking all your money. Ahhhh yes, Because he made poor life choices, he can work the system,, Yes, let's reward people that make poor life choices,, penalize those that have not made poor life choices.. I don't think he made a poor life choice - he's WORKING and potentially helping people and providing a valuable service. I thought "poor life choice" was for people who don't appear to work at all and collect gobs of government money while maintaining a lavish lifestyle (and if they are female while popping out kids to increase their income!)? If you are redefining "poor life choices" for people who work and who legally take advantage of a government program or a legal tax break -- then I think you should be pretty pissed at Big Business, Wall Street, business executives, and even dear old Trump. They all take advantage of legal tax breaks and government laws/regulations to fill their own pockets. I feel like you are attacking someone in the "middle class" who's found a way to take advantage of some of the perks of being "upper class"? What's with that...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 17, 2018 11:47:36 GMT -5
So what good does it do you to be the victim? Why would you give someone that power over you? Why would you want to be bitter? It come from dealing with Public Servants. You make the wrong decision, I will fight at the drop of a hat. Here is the part that I don't understand, when they make a mistake, why do they continue to go down that road, When I have pointed out(Politely) the error of their ways. Only after discussion with different level Supervisors, is a change made! After many battles of which most I have won, (I pick My battles), I know that I got your goat, Because,, I have never had a Public Servant apologize to me for their mistake, So when you go to PUBLIC SERVANT school is one of the first lesson ,,, Don't ever apologize for a mistake,,, Just wondering.
Huh, that sounds a lot like the corporate world, too. To make a change you have to up thru management. You have to pick your battles (chosing the ones you are most likely to win or find backers/support) and Management NEVER apologizes for a mistake. Management will never admit to being wrong - they may change but they were NEVER wrong.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 17, 2018 11:49:47 GMT -5
I don't understand how this is different from the various tax laws that help people shelter their income. There are rules and if you follow the rules, they work. This guy did his due diligence and was rewarded. If you don't want this to happen, then change the laws. Isn't that what people say all the time when tax laws are discussed? I cannot like this enough. How is what this guy did any different than what individuals and businesses do to 'shelter their income'??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 11:59:26 GMT -5
You're right. They should all just quit, who needs them. Half could quit, and We wouldn't know the difference, from the amount of work they do. I just spent 45 minutes in line at the DMV. I respectfully disagree that their staff should be cut in half!!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 17, 2018 12:08:19 GMT -5
It's not attempting to deal with that particular problem. It's trying to deal with the problem of people not wanting to go into the public sector. Towns CAN educate students for 8-15k...but students don't want to go there. They want to go to places with big new fancy buildings that cost a bunch of money to build. How about those of us that use the public sector as a training ground so you can make big buck in the private sector later? Thanks to what i did as a public servant, i can command some pretty good compensation for what I do now. Which was my point above. You obviously gained something from your time spent in the DA's office. You delayed your higher salary that you get now for experience. Why in the world should someone doing what you did also be entitled to have $170k of student loan balances discharged only to go on and get paid well?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 17, 2018 12:09:49 GMT -5
Isn't the "10 years of public service for loan forgiveness" just a kind of "job perk"? Work at this lower salary for a big benefit later down the road. You know, a job perk, like tuition reimbursement, maybe like an your employer contributing to a pension (that you do NOT have to contribute to), your employer paying more towards healthcare (to keep your costs down), offering pretax savings for transportation (extra paper work by your employer), any other stuff that's NOT in your Salary number? No one seems upset by the tradeoffs of getting non-salary perks from their employer? The taxpayers aren't footing the bill for any of my employer provided perks.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 17, 2018 12:11:23 GMT -5
Ahhhh yes, Because he made poor life choices, he can work the system,, Yes, let's reward people that make poor life choices,, penalize those that have not made poor life choices.. I don't think he made a poor life choice - he's WORKING and potentially helping people and providing a valuable service. I thought "poor life choice" was for people who don't appear to work at all and collect gobs of government money while maintaining a lavish lifestyle (and if they are female while popping out kids to increase their income!)? If you are redefining "poor life choices" for people who work and who legally take advantage of a government program or a legal tax break -- then I think you should be pretty pissed at Big Business, Wall Street, business executives, and even dear old Trump. They all take advantage of legal tax breaks and government laws/regulations to fill their own pockets. I feel like you are attacking someone in the "middle class" who's found a way to take advantage of some of the perks of being "upper class"? What's with that... Just to be clear, you can make a poor life choice (for example, I might spend $300k on a degree in basket weaving), and still find ways to dig your way out of it later. "Poor life choice" is for people who...make a poor life choice. Lots of people work and still make poor choices. You seem to be using "poor life choice" as a substitute for "societal leech". That said...I don't think we're really penalizing anyone here who made a good life choice. They have the same opportunity. This is a perk of the job. It's no different than saying "you took a job that gives you healthcare...way to reward your poor life choice and punish the rest of us who have to pay for healthcare". It's just a perk of the job, and it's being done for an economic reason.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 17, 2018 12:13:27 GMT -5
How about those of us that use the public sector as a training ground so you can make big buck in the private sector later? Thanks to what i did as a public servant, i can command some pretty good compensation for what I do now. Which was my point above. You obviously gained something from your time spent in the DA's office. You delayed your higher salary that you get now for experience. Why in the world should someone doing what you did also be entitled to have $170k of student loan balances discharged only to go on and get paid well?
Student loan forgiveness wasn't available in this form back then. Otherwise, I would have been on it like flies on shit. Also, I was lucky that I didn't have overwhelming student loans. I didn't have any from college. I got a good job in a law firm my second year, and my third year I was a house mother in a sorority at RPI in Troy as well as working at the law firm and teaching swim lessons to get free gym membership. I got free room and board, phone, cable, and paid $100 a week. I was able to pay some tuition. Not everyone is able to work out the deals I did.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 17, 2018 12:14:25 GMT -5
Isn't the "10 years of public service for loan forgiveness" just a kind of "job perk"? Work at this lower salary for a big benefit later down the road. You know, a job perk, like tuition reimbursement, maybe like an your employer contributing to a pension (that you do NOT have to contribute to), your employer paying more towards healthcare (to keep your costs down), offering pretax savings for transportation (extra paper work by your employer), any other stuff that's NOT in your Salary number? No one seems upset by the tradeoffs of getting non-salary perks from their employer? The taxpayers aren't footing the bill for any of my employer provided perks. 1. They probably are on some level, because employers get a lot of things from the government. 2. The taxpayers are ALWAYS going to end up paying government employees. Whether they get paid in cash money, or in a perk...does it matter? This is the same issue with people's work benefits...people just want to pretend that benefits are a gift...they aren't. It isn't benevolence on the part of the employer...it's part of your compensation. So the only viable argument here would be an in-depth examination that shows that if we stopped this loan forgiveness, that the subsequent increase in other benefits or pay would result in a net savings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 12:17:06 GMT -5
Isn't the "10 years of public service for loan forgiveness" just a kind of "job perk"? Work at this lower salary for a big benefit later down the road. You know, a job perk, like tuition reimbursement, maybe like an your employer contributing to a pension (that you do NOT have to contribute to), your employer paying more towards healthcare (to keep your costs down), offering pretax savings for transportation (extra paper work by your employer), any other stuff that's NOT in your Salary number? No one seems upset by the tradeoffs of getting non-salary perks from their employer? The taxpayers aren't footing the bill for any of my employer provided perks. They're trying to get people to work public service positions, they can either pay them more or offer other incentives like tuition reimbursement. Either one is going to cost the tax payers. Or we can just say F public service and see how that goes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 17, 2018 12:17:33 GMT -5
The taxpayers aren't footing the bill for any of my employer provided perks. 1. They probably are on some level, because employers get a lot of things from the government. 2. The taxpayers are ALWAYS going to end up paying government employees. Whether they get paid in cash money, or in a perk...does it matter? This is the same issue with people's work benefits...people just want to pretend that benefits are a gift...they aren't. It isn't benevolence on the part of the employer...it's part of your compensation. So the only viable argument here would be an in-depth examination that shows that if we stopped this loan forgiveness, that the subsequent increase in other benefits or pay would result in a net savings. I have an issue with unlimited loan forgiveness. Talk about taking away any incentive to make smart choices in selecting a college or how to fund tuition. That is much different than a person getting health insurance, which is negotiated by the employer. So yes, the difference does matter to me.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 17, 2018 12:19:53 GMT -5
The taxpayers aren't footing the bill for any of my employer provided perks. They're trying to get people to work public service positions, they can either pay them more or offer other incentives like tuition reimbursement. Either one is going to cost the tax payers. Or we can just say F public service and see how that goes. how did we get public service employees before this came about 10 years ago?
My issue isn't as much about any kind of reimbursement, it is the fact that it is leading people to make choices to either inflate their college costs (why worry about the cost when you know the taxpayers will foot the bill) or to delay taking a high paying position.
my employer will reimburse me $5k a year if I go back to school. It is up to me to use that $5k wisely. There is no blank check to cover any kind of stupid decisions I make.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 12:25:22 GMT -5
They're trying to get people to work public service positions, they can either pay them more or offer other incentives like tuition reimbursement. Either one is going to cost the tax payers. Or we can just say F public service and see how that goes. how did we get public service employees before this came about 10 years ago?
My issue isn't as much about any kind of reimbursement, it is the fact that it is leading people to make choices to either inflate their college costs (why worry about the cost when you know the taxpayers will foot the bill) or to delay taking a high paying position.
my employer will reimburse me $5k a year if I go back to school. It is up to me to use that $5k wisely. There is no blank check to cover any kind of stupid decisions I make.
Yes, I totally agree there should be limits on the loans. I also think forcing IBR to qualify so that some end up with loan balances more than double what they took out 10 years earlier is stupid.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 17, 2018 12:26:56 GMT -5
1. They probably are on some level, because employers get a lot of things from the government. 2. The taxpayers are ALWAYS going to end up paying government employees. Whether they get paid in cash money, or in a perk...does it matter? This is the same issue with people's work benefits...people just want to pretend that benefits are a gift...they aren't. It isn't benevolence on the part of the employer...it's part of your compensation. So the only viable argument here would be an in-depth examination that shows that if we stopped this loan forgiveness, that the subsequent increase in other benefits or pay would result in a net savings. I have an issue with unlimited loan forgiveness. Talk about taking away any incentive to make smart choices in selecting a college or how to fund tuition. That is much different than a person getting health insurance, which is negotiated by the employer. So yes, the difference does matter to me. If you still choose to not make smart choices about college or tuition, you still run the risk that either 1. You can't get one of these jobs and stay long enough to get loan forgiveness. or 2. You can get one of these jobs, but it won't pay you as much as you could have made doing something else if you had more freedom of choice. Or we could just cap the tuition forgiveness at $1 million per person...no different than a perk. It all comes down to what the cost of the ACTUAL perk is, vs what the cost would be if the perk were eliminated and other perks/pay were used as incentive. Or is your issue purely with the idea that doing this incentivizes irresponsibility up front with college and tuition? Because I kind of doubt a lot of 18 year olds are going into college thinking "Hmmm...I should pick a major and then work a crappy public service job that I might hate when I get out just to pay for that crappy major that I won't ever use".
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