Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 4, 2017 10:23:04 GMT -5
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Post by Jaguar on Dec 4, 2017 10:25:41 GMT -5
Gross, and no suicide ain't gross just these machines are.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 4, 2017 10:26:30 GMT -5
Gross, and no suicide ain't gross just these machines are. At least you've got your priorities straight.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 4, 2017 10:38:34 GMT -5
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Dec 4, 2017 10:42:10 GMT -5
Just found the last Christmas present for person on my list. They are always so hard to shop for since not one of my favorite people!
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Dec 4, 2017 11:33:52 GMT -5
Interesting Virgil...not something we like to talk about, ones demise however..A year and a half ago I suffered a stroke..out of the blue...I am doing fine...mind is fine, eating and most things are good...left side..can walk with a 1/2 walker as a aid...have a aid to help out 8 hours a day for breakfast, shopping , laundry and stuff...cleaners come in every two weeks..redid my place to make it friendly to me.. However while in rehab ..there about two months..I saw so many stroke victems...most of u unless had friends or family who suffered them...have no clue how prevalent strokes are and how affects not just seniors...all segments of population.. I am very lucky in how I was affected...in the rehab I saw so many wheel chaired basically permanently...to me, the worst situation was not if the folks were in a dream like state...then fine, just dream away...but those whose bodies were in that chair but their minds were still alive, aware and active... In such a case, what u have posted seems like a way to solve a problem..I have no qualms from a religious stand point...for others I realize that can be something to consider...not for me. My daughter and I have talked about what to do..I have signed certain papers for certain doings...talked to my doctor too..have to talk some more...but again...your post...interesting and is not what some want to consider..yet would suggest readers understand how many are affected by stroke...we hear about heart..cancer but strokes...there is a epidemic out there and few realize it. I know I didn't...before that is...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2017 11:58:32 GMT -5
who needs machines? if drugs were legal you could just massively overdose and drift into eternal sleep.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Dec 4, 2017 12:21:22 GMT -5
who needs machines? if drugs were legal you could just massively overdose and drift into eternal sleep. Unless u really know what u are doing , doing away with one self can be a messy, even painful thing and possible not be successful....not saying one needs such machine..possible the Doctor Kavorkian method..[is he still imprisoned, alive..??] might be a answer ....but still not fool proof.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 4, 2017 12:24:09 GMT -5
who needs machines? if drugs were legal you could just massively overdose and drift into eternal sleep. Unless u really know what u are doing , doing away with one self can be a messy, even painful thing and possible not be successful....not saying one needs such machine..possible the Doctor Kavorkian method..[is he still imprisoned, alive..??] might be a answer ....but still not fool proof. Dr. Kevorkian passed away in 2011. He was 83.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Dec 4, 2017 12:32:52 GMT -5
Unless u really know what u are doing , doing away with one self can be a messy, even painful thing and possible not be successful....not saying one needs such machine..possible the Doctor Kavorkian method..[is he still imprisoned, alive..??] might be a answer ....but still not fool proof. Dr. Kevorkian passed away in 2011. He was 83. For anyone interested...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian -------------------------------------- Thanks mmhmm....just looked up...read his "WICKI"...interesting and his trials...spent a bit over 8 years in prison on last trial found guilty..he actually assisted and was filmed doing so on that one...also represented himself at trial..[later admitted that was a mistake] It was found that for some who committed suicide using his ideas ./ methods , they were more depressed then terminally ill...not all by any means but a few...As far as thought on "Kavorkian" and his doings.....u can see a real mixed bagged of how people felt about him....he definitely got people thinking and talking about the topic..before seemed to be done in whispers and behind closed doors.. Personal experience..my dear Mom had a blood disease..platelets , either red or white way out of control...forgot which..her Doctor back in New Haven at Yale offered her chemo or two aspirin a day..Mom took the two aspirin, moved to Florida...had a wonderful second life there..twenty years later it caught up with her...she has a DEAL with her Doctor..not to suffer or be in pain...She was in hospice , doing fine, I and Sister in law with her...she was doing so well there was talk of her going home..but then turn for worse..In morning she was very uncomfortable ..nurse said internal bleeding...told her to call Doctor..she said she would later...I became a Captain again..INSISTED...she did, very shortly came in to give Mom a shot to make Mom comfortable...shortly Mom passed peacefully...no discomfort..Miss her every day ...a very special lady...------------------------------------ "Judge Thomas Jackson, who presided over Kevorkian's first murder trial in 1994, commented that he wanted to express sorrow at Kevorkian's death and that the 1994 case was brought under "a badly written law" aimed at Kevorkian, but he attempted to give him "the best trial possible." Geoffrey Fieger, Kevorkian's lawyer during the 1990s, gave a speech at a press conference in which he stated: "Dr. Jack Kevorkian didn't seek out history, but he made history."[57] Fieger said that Kevorkian revolutionized the concept of suicide by working to help people end their own suffering, because he believed physicians are responsible for alleviating the suffering of patients, even if that meant allowing patients to die.[57] John Finn, medical director of palliative care at the Catholic[58] St. John's Hospital, said Kevorkian's methods were unorthodox and inappropriate. He added that many of Kevorkian's patients were isolated, lonely, and potentially depressed, and therefore in no state to mindfully choose whether to live or die.[57] Derek Humphry, author of the suicide handbook Final Exit, said Kevorkian was "too obsessed, too fanatical, in his interest in death and suicide to offer direction for the nation."[59] In a 2015 Retro Report story about Kevorkian's legacy and the Right to Die movement, journalist Jack Lessenberry said Kevorkian "got a national debate going, which I think he then helped stifle by his own outrageous actions."[60] Howard Markel, a medical historian at the University of Michigan, said that Kevorkian "was a major historical figure in modern medicine."[57] The Catholic Church in Detroit said Kevorkian left behind a "deadly legacy" that denied scores of people their right to humane deaths.[61] Philip Nitschke, founder and director of right-to-die organization Exit International, said that Kevorkian "moved the debate forward in ways the rest of us can only imagine. He started at a time when it was hardly talked about and got people thinking about the issue. He paid one hell of a price, and that is one of the hallmarks of true heroism."[62]The epitaph on Kevorkian's tombstone reads, "He sacrificed himself for everyone's rights."[63]"
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Dec 4, 2017 12:54:26 GMT -5
I immediately thought of that!
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Dec 4, 2017 13:10:30 GMT -5
A genocide? Really? Doesn't that seem... dramatic?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 4, 2017 13:31:07 GMT -5
Actually, when it comes to be my time, depending on the circumstances, I believe suicide to be a perfectly logical means to ending the corporeal state. And having a reasonable way to achieve that end sounds good.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Dec 4, 2017 13:31:27 GMT -5
A genocide? Really? Doesn't that seem... dramatic? I agree . . . . why should you (the Big You) care about how someone else orders the end of their life? You don't walk in their shoes - - you have NO IDEA what they are going through.
To me, this is a big, fat MYOB. Some folks are waaaaaay too concerned with sticking their moralistic nose into other people's business.
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Post by tallguy on Dec 5, 2017 1:00:26 GMT -5
I am fine with the idea. If one believes in individual liberties, and that one has the right to live their life pretty much any way they want to as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others to do the same, how could you think otherwise? If the right of self-determination is fundamental to being an individual, is there anything more fundamental than the choice of whether to live at all, or of how to end that life? No. It is their choice, not mine. It is their life, not mine. It belongs to them, not society. Society should butt out, and the law should not proscribe that choice. Respect the individual. I am glad to live in a state that does that. Washington voters passed an initiative that allowed medical aid in dying, although they do limit it to terminal patients. Still, that is far better than other states which deny that option and instead condemn such persons to a much bleaker future.
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Post by Opti on Dec 5, 2017 3:36:32 GMT -5
I often forget about this one as Star Trek addressed this issue at least twice in different episodes. Still funny.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Dec 5, 2017 7:58:15 GMT -5
You're assuming we would want to leave money to family members Use it all up any way you can!!!!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 9:24:54 GMT -5
I am fine with the idea. If one believes in individual liberties, and that one has the right to live their life pretty much any way they want to as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others to do the same, how could you think otherwise? If the right of self-determination is fundamental to being an individual, is there anything more fundamental than the choice of whether to live at all, or of how to end that life? No. It is their choice, not mine. It is their life, not mine. It belongs to them, not society. Society should butt out, and the law should not proscribe that choice. Respect the individual. I am glad to live in a state that does that. Washington voters passed an initiative that allowed medical aid in dying, although they do limit it to terminal patients. Still, that is far better than other states which deny that option and instead condemn such persons to a much bleaker future. You realize these suicide machines aren't just for terminal patients? They're available for anybody who decides to take their own life, for any reason.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 5, 2017 9:29:15 GMT -5
I wrestle with the idea of suicide. On the one hand I think it's a terrible thing to do to your loved ones. On the other hand I don't believe that I should have the right to decide for other people. I don't walk in their shoes so I have no idea what's going on in their heads. Maybe suicide is a better alternative in their opinion than living with whatever demons plague them or the side effects that come with treating them.
Suicide booths are also an opportunity for a captive audience. Allow suicide booths but plaster the insides from top to bottom with hotline information. It's a lot easier to disseminate information to a captive audience than it is to hope these people call you or you find them first.
If someone still wants to do it then that should be their right. If they are on the fence being bombarded with assurances there is help may prompt them to seek it as opposed to if they were pulling the trigger in their living room.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 9:46:02 GMT -5
For those interested, the film "The Euthanasia Deception" does a good job of documenting some of horrors in Belgium, where euthanasia has been legal for more than a decade. In part, it covers case studies of the many ways people are pressured, deceived, or temporarily convinced1 to claim their own life or the life of a non-consenting individual in their care. The social pressure to end the lives of the elderly and the disabled is particularly strong, and it's worsening with the passage of time.
The documentary is viewable online. There are two versions: one for secular audiences and one for Christians.
1 i.e. fall into a state of post-traumatic depression following an accident, etc.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 5, 2017 10:02:03 GMT -5
For those interested, the film "The Euthanasia Deception" does a good job of documenting some of horrors in Belgium, where euthanasia has been legal for more than a decade. In part, it covers case studies of the many ways people are pressured, deceived, or temporarily convinced 1 to claim their own life or the life of a non-consenting individual in their care. The social pressure to end the lives of the elderly and the disabled is particularly strong, and it's worsening with the passage of time. The documentary is viewable online. There are two versions: one for secular audiences and one for Christians. 1 i.e. fall into a state of post-traumatic depression following an accident, etc. There are points made that are worthy of consideration. I can't say I'm in favor of suicide booths on every other street corner like telephone booths once were. I see the need for a protective layer between the vulnerable and those who would use that vulnerability for nefarious purposes.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 5, 2017 10:26:54 GMT -5
I'm an old, jaded railroad riding commuter. I'm ALL for Suicide Booths... I'd hope there'd be some sort of privacy involved and maybe some way for the person to leave some last words and/or talk to someone before the final steps - just to make sure no ones being pushed into one OR if someone can be helped at the last minute.
There's been an average of 4 pedestrian deaths on my train line every year for the 25plus years I've been riding it. (one year there were 8!) There are 11 (I think) train lines, each with it's own pedestrian deaths (just not as many as my line). These aren't all "accidents".
I would much rather have people who wish to end their life do so in a nicer way - for themselves, for their loved ones, and for the rest of the population.
Really, who wants to come home to find a loved one dead by their own hand? Or have their loved one's death make headlines?
Yeah, I'm cold cruel and heartless and do think that some people are just better off dead (it's not a "they deserve to be dead" thing - more of a maybe the most compassionate/merciful thing is death.)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 5, 2017 10:47:13 GMT -5
For those interested, the film "The Euthanasia Deception" does a good job of documenting some of horrors in Belgium, where euthanasia has been legal for more than a decade. In part, it covers case studies of the many ways people are pressured, deceived, or temporarily convinced 1 to claim their own life or the life of a non-consenting individual in their care. The social pressure to end the lives of the elderly and the disabled is particularly strong, and it's worsening with the passage of time. The documentary is viewable online. There are two versions: one for secular audiences and one for Christians. 1 i.e. fall into a state of post-traumatic depression following an accident, etc. There are points made that are worthy of consideration. I can't say I'm in favor of suicide booths on every other street corner like telephone booths once were. I see the need for a protective layer between the vulnerable and those who would use that vulnerability for nefarious purposes. Agreed, it'd have to be regulated up to the hilt. I could see making it like when you try to change something on your computer and it asks you 20x if you are sure you are sure that you want this change before it executes the program. If you make it thru 10 pages asking you if you are sure you want to commit suicide (maybe along with flashing the help hotline number every time) then I think you should have your right to pull the trigger.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 5, 2017 11:13:13 GMT -5
Okay, people, listen up. This thread is about a specific "gadget" invented to serve a purpose that is acceptable to some but not to others. That's what's under discussion. This is NOT the place to opine on the effectiveness of various methods of taking one's life. I don't want to close the thread but I will if it gets more out of hand. Remember, there are young people reading here and there may be depressed people reading here. Stay on topic, please.
mmhmn, Politics Moderator
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 11:14:17 GMT -5
Razor blades aren't a pleasant, painless, and effective way to die. The afflicted still have a chance. Also, they may not be capable of going through with the act because of the sheer conviction needed to slit one's wrists. It's more visceral than pushing a button and drifting to sleep. I'm sure it impresses on more than a few people the enormity of what they're doing. If the afflicted slit their wrists in private and are determined to end their life, they will not have a chance. The same with jumping off a 50 story building. If someone is that desperate, they will find a fullproof way. I agree to a point. It's worth noting that many gun control proponents appeal to the fact that gun suicides are convenient and more likely to succeed than common alternatives, which is true. Reality is that the vast majority of suicide attempts fail (estimates range between 92-95%) and aren't repeated. It's hard to believe but 4% of the US adult population reports having suicidal thoughts in any given year. For students, the number who report "seriously considering suicide" in any given year is 17%. It's simply one of those things we do not want to make easy, convenient, and effective. Likewise, we do not want to normalize, trivialize, or legitimize suicide--in any way. This is the greatest danger of these machines, in my view. They make a powerful statement that suicide is just something people do; a normal, natural part of life; "exit" quickly and affordably on your own terms. To say nothing of the fact that they eliminate many of the psychological barriers to committing suicide, and they elevate the success rate from 5% to 100%.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 5, 2017 11:16:43 GMT -5
The thread subject and linked article alone won't possibly influence young people and depressed older people?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 5, 2017 11:18:11 GMT -5
If the afflicted slit their wrists in private and are determined to end their life, they will not have a chance. The same with jumping off a 50 story building. If someone is that desperate, they will find a fullproof way. I agree to a point. It's worth noting that many gun control opponents appeal to the fact that gun suicides are convenient and more likely to succeed than common alternatives, which is true. Reality is that the vast majority of suicide attempts fail (estimates range between 92-95%) and aren't repeated. It's hard to believe but 4% of the US adult population reports having suicidal thoughts in any given year. For students, the number who report "seriously considering suicide" in any given year is 17%. It's simply one of those things we do not want to make easy, convenient, and effective. Likewise, we do not want to normalize, trivialize, or legitimize suicide--in any way. This is the greatest danger of these machines, in my view. They make a powerful statement that suicide is just something people do; a normal, natural part of life; "exit" quickly and affordably on your own terms. To say nothing of the fact that they eliminate many of the psychological barriers to committing suicide, and they elevate the success rate from 5% to 100%. Again, I'm going to emphasize the subject of this thread. It's not to discuss the "best" methods of committing suicide, so cut it out! Discuss the booths and their potential impact on society. Use your heads, people! mmhmm, Politics Moderator
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 5, 2017 11:19:10 GMT -5
The thread subject and linked article alone won't possibly influence young people and depressed older people? Certainly not in the way directly suggested methodology will, Tenn. Discuss the booths. That's the subject.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 11:25:31 GMT -5
I agree to a point. It's worth noting that many gun control opponents appeal to the fact that gun suicides are convenient and more likely to succeed than common alternatives, which is true. Reality is that the vast majority of suicide attempts fail (estimates range between 92-95%) and aren't repeated. It's hard to believe but 4% of the US adult population reports having suicidal thoughts in any given year. For students, the number who report "seriously considering suicide" in any given year is 17%. It's simply one of those things we do not want to make easy, convenient, and effective. Likewise, we do not want to normalize, trivialize, or legitimize suicide--in any way. This is the greatest danger of these machines, in my view. They make a powerful statement that suicide is just something people do; a normal, natural part of life; "exit" quickly and affordably on your own terms. To say nothing of the fact that they eliminate many of the psychological barriers to committing suicide, and they elevate the success rate from 5% to 100%. Again, I'm going to emphasize the subject of this thread. It's not to discuss the "best" methods of committing suicide, so cut it out! Discuss the booths and their potential impact on society. Use your heads, people! mmhmm, Politics Moderator The sole purpose of the booths is to kill people the "best" way possible. That's their raison d'etre. The only two defenses of their existence are i) cheap, easy suicide isn't a bad thing, or ii) the machines aren't a milestone since cheap, easy ways to commit suicide already exist. If either of these topics isn't suitable for conversation (perhaps moon/Laura will give us a ruling), it's best to simply lock the thread.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 5, 2017 11:30:07 GMT -5
Again, I'm going to emphasize the subject of this thread. It's not to discuss the "best" methods of committing suicide, so cut it out! Discuss the booths and their potential impact on society. Use your heads, people! mmhmm, Politics Moderator The sole purpose of the booths is to kill people the "best" way possible. That's their raison d'etre. The only two defenses of their existence are i) cheap, easy suicide isn't a bad thing, or ii) the machines aren't a milestone since cheap, easy ways to commit suicide already exist. If either of these topics isn't suitable for conversation (perhaps moon/Laura will give us a ruling), it's best to simply lock the thread. (you beat me to this)
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