Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 16:27:06 GMT -5
I would agree, for those who have life to live. I would wholeheartedly disagree at end of life decision time. The machines don't distinguish, hence the point is moot. Society should guard with zeal against a "slippery slope" toward encouraging the elderly to check out for financial convenience and all of that... It should but it doesn't. See the documentary on euthanasia in Belgium. The elderly, the disabled, caretakers for the disabled, those coming out of a trauma, and many other vulnerable people are under constant pressure. I distinguish between cessation of life support and euthanasia (most opponents of euthanasia do). If a person's body has failed and they cannot live without extraordinary medical intervention, their time has come.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 16:41:45 GMT -5
While I completely agree that life is precious and suicide is anything but desirable I won't go so far as to condemn those who come to the decision to end their lives at the time they wish to do so; nor, do I feel it right to make it difficult for them. As I said, I feel there must be a protective layer between the individual who is suffering and the means to accomplish the ending of that life. I believe this protective layer should serve to educate, to empower, and to mitigate the suffering by other means, if possible. It shouldn't be something, IMO, that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish. There's nothing Taliban-like in that stance and I resent the implication that there is such staining. Dress it up however you want. Your "protective layer" is society making it difficult for people to commit suicide because suicide "shouldn't be something ... that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish", which is your moral judgment. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you're willing to make it. I just wince when I see missives about "protective layers" "empowering" people as though we're chatting about career options instead of pleading with people not to kill themselves. As for the "Taliban" comment, Tall is the culprit. Don't let it go. I'd love to see you take a bite out of him.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 5, 2017 16:49:44 GMT -5
The sole purpose of the booths is to kill people the "best" way possible. That's their raison d'etre. The only two defenses of their existence are i) cheap, easy suicide isn't a bad thing, or ii) the machines aren't a milestone since cheap, easy ways to commit suicide already exist. If either of these topics isn't suitable for conversation (perhaps moon/Laura will give us a ruling), it's best to simply lock the thread. i think it's some of both. BTW, i hope someone is tallying points that everyone who is for these, better have NEVER argued against "all the senseless gun deaths" when their statistics always include suicide (i think it's about 1/2 the total) You brought it up. Why can't you do the tallying?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 5, 2017 16:59:48 GMT -5
While I completely agree that life is precious and suicide is anything but desirable I won't go so far as to condemn those who come to the decision to end their lives at the time they wish to do so; nor, do I feel it right to make it difficult for them. As I said, I feel there must be a protective layer between the individual who is suffering and the means to accomplish the ending of that life. I believe this protective layer should serve to educate, to empower, and to mitigate the suffering by other means, if possible. It shouldn't be something, IMO, that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish. There's nothing Taliban-like in that stance and I resent the implication that there is such staining. Dress it up however you want. Your "protective layer" is society making it difficult for people to commit suicide because suicide "shouldn't be something ... that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish", which is your moral judgment. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you're willing to make it. I just wince when I see missives about "protective layers" "empowering" people as though we're chatting about career options instead of pleading with people not to kill themselves. As for the "Taliban" comment, Tall is the culprit. Don't let it go. I'd love to see you take a bite out of him. Tall didn't make the Taliban comment in your post. You did, and it was your post I quoted. Wince as you wish. Unlike you, I don't see the world in black and white. The shades of grey have been made clear to me; particularly, they've been made clear by patients over the years. Anyone trying to make a life-changing (or, ending, if you wish) decision should, IMO, be empowered while still being protected while exercising that empowerment. Education, understanding feedback, and care empower, as well as protect. Imposing my moral will on another does neither. I don't think I said anything about "pleading" with anyone. I wouldn't do that. I choose a more proactive way of dealing with the situation. Give information, help with evaluation, offer encouragement and, perhaps, viable alternatives. Support will serve much better than pleading, in my experience - and I've had quite a bit of that.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 17:31:30 GMT -5
I can't help but picture you standing in a mall handing out "So you want to commit suicide?" brochures.
"Great!" Proclaims the inner flap. "You're taking the first step in a big life decision! But before we get this show on the road, let's make sure all our t's are crossed and our i's are dotted..."
An elderly woman comes up to the kiosk.
"I've been thinking of committing suicide for a while now," she says. "All this pain in my joints makes getting around a hassle. And my children don't visit anymore."
Beaming, you hand her a brochure.
"Let's see if we can figure out a solution that's right for you," you say, firing up the "What Are Your Options?" Powerpoint. "By the by, I'm mmhmm, your personal empowerment officer. If at any point you feel as though I'm pressuring you, judging you, or diminishing your empowerment, just say 'turkey', like 'Turkey!'--it's today's safe word--and I'll immediately change the subject. Does that sound acceptable to you?"
"Yes. Is there going to be any cost to this?"
"Absolutely not. And if, after careful consideration, you decide that using our 100% safe 'transition pod' to undertake a dignified exit is the right decision for you, EmpowerCo will donate $5 to a suicide empowerment and protection hotline, which helps teens to make the right end-of-life decisions for them."
You point to a big, comfy couch set up behind your kiosk, still smiling ear to ear.
"Do you want to sit on the left or the right. You decide!"
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 5, 2017 17:38:34 GMT -5
I think it can be a temporary issue but not always. I don’t worry anymore about dying because my kids are adults and will be okay. I don’t want to die a slow horrible death but I honestly don’t care if my life ends. I miss DH and want to be with him. I won’t actively seek to end my life but I won’t do anything to stop it happening either, naturally. I won’t be a victim of some raping murderer if I can help it but if it happens, oh well.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 5, 2017 17:46:36 GMT -5
While I completely agree that life is precious and suicide is anything but desirable I won't go so far as to condemn those who come to the decision to end their lives at the time they wish to do so; nor, do I feel it right to make it difficult for them. As I said, I feel there must be a protective layer between the individual who is suffering and the means to accomplish the ending of that life. I believe this protective layer should serve to educate, to empower, and to mitigate the suffering by other means, if possible. It shouldn't be something, IMO, that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish. There's nothing Taliban-like in that stance and I resent the implication that there is such staining. Dress it up however you want. Your "protective layer" is society making it difficult for people to commit suicide because suicide "shouldn't be something ... that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish", which is your moral judgment. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you're willing to make it. I just wince when I see missives about "protective layers" "empowering" people as though we're chatting about career options instead of pleading with people not to kill themselves. As for the "Taliban" comment, Tall is the culprit. Don't let it go. I'd love to see you take a bite out of him. The phrase I used was "American Taliban." (Just to be clear.) You know what that is, don't you?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 17:48:15 GMT -5
I think it can be a temporary issue but not always. I don’t worry anymore about dying because my kids are adults and will be okay. I don’t want to die a slow horrible death but I honestly don’t care if my life ends. I miss DH and want to be with him. I won’t actively seek to end my life but I won’t do anything to stop it happening either, naturally. I won’t be a victim of some raping murderer if I can help it but if it happens, oh well. Based on the statistics, tens of millions of people in the US contemplate suicide each year. Stress, ennui, illness, loneliness, lack of purpose, drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, disability, the belief that nobody loves them, the belief they'd be better off dead, and simple depression. Think me a judgmental son of a gun, but I say: what a loss and a waste when even one of these people chooses suicide as a would-be solution and carries it out.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Dec 5, 2017 17:50:11 GMT -5
I can't help but picture you standing in a mall handing out "So you want to commit suicide?" brochures. "Great!" Proclaims the inner flap. "You're taking the first step in a big life decision! But before we get this show on the road, let's make sure all our t's are crossed and our i's are dotted..." An elderly woman comes up to the kiosk. "I've been thinking of committing suicide for a while now," she says. "All this pain in my joints makes getting around a hassle. And my children don't visit anymore." Beaming, you hand her a brochure. "Let's see if we can figure out a solution that's right for you," you say, firing up the "What Are Your Options?" Powerpoint. "By the by, I'm mmhmm, your personal empowerment officer. If at any point you feel as though I'm pressuring you, judging you, or diminishing your empowerment, just say 'turkey', like 'Turkey!'--it's today's safe word--and I'll immediately change the subject. Does that sound acceptable to you?" "Yes. Is there going to be any cost to this?" "Absolutely not. And if, after careful consideration, you decide that using our 100% safe 'transition pod' to undertake a dignified exit is the right decision for you, EmpowerCo will donate $5 to a suicide empowerment and protection hotline, which helps teens to make the right end-of-life decisions for them." You point to a big, comfy couch set up behind your kiosk, still smiling ear to ear. "Do you want to sit on the left or the right. You decide!"
Oh puleeeeze . . . .
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 5, 2017 17:51:31 GMT -5
There is that. I get your point. I also had a suicide in my family and it hurt everyone especially because there was no reason at all. Just a shock to all concerned with zero warning. Then I’m amazed at people who hang onto a life that, to me, isn’t worth living. So that makes me judgmental.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 5, 2017 17:55:55 GMT -5
There is that. I get your point. I also had a suicide in my family and it hurt everyone especially because there was no reason at all. Just a shock to all concerned with zero warning. Then I’m amazed at people who hang onto a life that, to me, isn’t worth living. So that makes me judgmental. Or worse, family which keeps someone on life support because they just can't let that person go.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2017 17:58:08 GMT -5
Dress it up however you want. Your "protective layer" is society making it difficult for people to commit suicide because suicide "shouldn't be something ... that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish", which is your moral judgment. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you're willing to make it. I just wince when I see missives about "protective layers" "empowering" people as though we're chatting about career options instead of pleading with people not to kill themselves. As for the "Taliban" comment, Tall is the culprit. Don't let it go. I'd love to see you take a bite out of him. The phrase I used was "American Taliban." (Just to be clear.) You know what that is, don't you? A nickname for the two people that the other 98% of your posts are about? I imagine it's in the same vein as posters using the word "theocracy" to describe resistance to the purging of JudeoChristian mores from civil governance. i.e. a misnomer. Say what you will about Mr. Orwell, his lampooning liberals' love of Orwellian labeling was a revelation.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Dec 5, 2017 18:32:10 GMT -5
So, suppose someone has money and a large 3D printer, and makes one of these things. Goes through the process and gets the access code, then shoves someone else in the coffin and activates it. Sorry but you just made me shut down my printer for fear of using it neferiously.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 5, 2017 18:43:34 GMT -5
So, suppose someone has money and a large 3D printer, and makes one of these things. Goes through the process and gets the access code, then shoves someone else in the coffin and activates it. Way too much trouble. Just get a gun. You can find 'em just about anywhere. Some places don't even ask. MUCH easier.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 5, 2017 18:48:53 GMT -5
The phrase I used was "American Taliban." (Just to be clear.) You know what that is, don't you? A nickname for the two people that the other 98% of your posts are about? I imagine it's in the same vein as posters using the word "theocracy" to describe resistance to the purging of JudeoChristian mores from civil governance. i.e. a misnomer. Say what you will about Mr. Orwell, his lampooning liberals' love of Orwellian labeling was a revelation. The goal is not to purge Judeo-Christian mores from civil governance. It is to ensure that we are not ruled by someone's interpretation of them, particularly when those people have such a poor understanding in the first place. Jimmy Kimmel is right: ✔ @mooresenate .@jimmykimmel If you want to mock our Christian values, come down here to Alabama and do it man to man. #ALSen bit.ly/2AqwvSr 11:24 AM - Nov 30, 2017 ✔ @jimmykimmel Replying to @mooresenate Sounds great Roy - let me know when you get some Christian values and I’ll be there!
11:57 AM - Nov 30, 2017
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 5, 2017 18:51:31 GMT -5
Guns are messy and a lot of people don’t like that for themselves. I don’t care about blowing away an intruder but myself? Nope.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 5, 2017 19:56:41 GMT -5
I can't help but picture you standing in a mall handing out "So you want to commit suicide?" brochures. "Great!" Proclaims the inner flap. "You're taking the first step in a big life decision! But before we get this show on the road, let's make sure all our t's are crossed and our i's are dotted..." An elderly woman comes up to the kiosk. "I've been thinking of committing suicide for a while now," she says. "All this pain in my joints makes getting around a hassle. And my children don't visit anymore." Beaming, you hand her a brochure. "Let's see if we can figure out a solution that's right for you," you say, firing up the "What Are Your Options?" Powerpoint. "By the by, I'm mmhmm, your personal empowerment officer. If at any point you feel as though I'm pressuring you, judging you, or diminishing your empowerment, just say 'turkey', like 'Turkey!'--it's today's safe word--and I'll immediately change the subject. Does that sound acceptable to you?" "Yes. Is there going to be any cost to this?" "Absolutely not. And if, after careful consideration, you decide that using our 100% safe 'transition pod' to undertake a dignified exit is the right decision for you, EmpowerCo will donate $5 to a suicide empowerment and protection hotline, which helps teens to make the right end-of-life decisions for them." You point to a big, comfy couch set up behind your kiosk, still smiling ear to ear. "Do you want to sit on the left or the right. You decide!" That's the most ridiculous nonsense I've read in some time. No matter how you twist what I say to fit your agenda, what I say remains what I say. Its meaning is, I hope, clear to those who wish to understand it. For those who do not, I'm not particularly concerned. You will believe to be right that which you will believe to be right. So will I. The beat will, as always, go on.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 5, 2017 20:17:43 GMT -5
I can't help but picture you standing in a mall handing out "So you want to commit suicide?" brochures. "Great!" Proclaims the inner flap. "You're taking the first step in a big life decision! But before we get this show on the road, let's make sure all our t's are crossed and our i's are dotted..." An elderly woman comes up to the kiosk. "I've been thinking of committing suicide for a while now," she says. "All this pain in my joints makes getting around a hassle. And my children don't visit anymore." Beaming, you hand her a brochure. "Let's see if we can figure out a solution that's right for you," you say, firing up the "What Are Your Options?" Powerpoint. "By the by, I'm mmhmm, your personal empowerment officer. If at any point you feel as though I'm pressuring you, judging you, or diminishing your empowerment, just say 'turkey', like 'Turkey!'--it's today's safe word--and I'll immediately change the subject. Does that sound acceptable to you?" "Yes. Is there going to be any cost to this?" "Absolutely not. And if, after careful consideration, you decide that using our 100% safe 'transition pod' to undertake a dignified exit is the right decision for you, EmpowerCo will donate $5 to a suicide empowerment and protection hotline, which helps teens to make the right end-of-life decisions for them." You point to a big, comfy couch set up behind your kiosk, still smiling ear to ear. "Do you want to sit on the left or the right. You decide!" That's the most ridiculous nonsense I've read in some time. No matter how you twist what I say to fit your agenda, what I say remains what I say. Its meaning is, I hope, clear to those who wish to understand it. For those who do not, I'm not particularly concerned. You will believe to be right that which you will believe to be right. So will I. The beat will, as always, go on. Well, since the last time, right? Or when someone cites something like Breitbart, The Conservative Nuthouse, or other such rag.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 5, 2017 20:21:30 GMT -5
That's the most ridiculous nonsense I've read in some time. No matter how you twist what I say to fit your agenda, what I say remains what I say. Its meaning is, I hope, clear to those who wish to understand it. For those who do not, I'm not particularly concerned. You will believe to be right that which you will believe to be right. So will I. The beat will, as always, go on. Well, since the last time, right? Or when someone cites something like Breitbart, The Conservative Nuthouse, or other such rag. In size six font
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 5, 2017 21:06:37 GMT -5
Constant pressure to kill themselves in Belgium? Really? Wasn’t there a country that basically eradicated Downs Syndrome by terminating those that had it in utero?The mothers weren’t forced to, right?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 5, 2017 21:53:25 GMT -5
Constant pressure to kill themselves in Belgium? Really? Wasn’t there a country that basically eradicated Downs Syndrome by terminating those that had it in utero?The mothers weren’t forced to, right? Iceland, and no, the government does not mandate abortion and does not even mandate mothers taking the test.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2017 1:16:37 GMT -5
Actually, when it comes to be my time, depending on the circumstances, I believe suicide to be a perfectly logical means to ending the corporeal state. gonna pull a Hunter S on us, dem?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2017 1:22:06 GMT -5
I would agree, for those who have life to live. I would wholeheartedly disagree at end of life decision time. At that point people should be given compassionate choices, imo. Society should guard with zeal against a "slippery slope" toward encouraging the elderly to check out for financial convenience and all of that, but should respect and allow for people's decision to check out when their body and/ or mind will be cruelly failing them. Animals do it Virgil Showlion They go off and die when it is time. if a person doesn't have the right to his own life, what does he have?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2017 1:26:32 GMT -5
The phrase I used was "American Taliban." (Just to be clear.) You know what that is, don't you? A nickname for the two people that the other 98% of your posts are about? I imagine it's in the same vein as posters using the word "theocracy" to describe resistance to the purging of JudeoChristian mores from civil governance. i.e. a misnomer. Say what you will about Mr. Orwell, his lampooning liberals' love of Orwellian labeling was a revelation. Orwell was a critic of this HUMAN tendency. i can't detect a sliver of partisanship in 1984. i wish i could say the same for you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 4:14:07 GMT -5
Sad way to go - alone in a box. What if someone puts someone already unconscious in the box? I think it's just creepy,
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Dec 6, 2017 4:23:31 GMT -5
While I agree with the idea, I don't know how you keep it from being used improperly (murder).
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 6, 2017 6:35:20 GMT -5
There must be safeguards
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 6, 2017 6:57:55 GMT -5
The problem is that once we make it an issue of personal choice over morality
Nope, the problem is: you expecting everyone to embrace YOUR definition of 'morality.'
Here is a statement that does not trouble me at all: "I can't do that because my moral code (religion) won't let me."
Here is a statement that troubles me greatly: "YOU can't do that because MY moral code (religion) won't let you."
And this may be the real difference between many with the conservative mindset versus the liberal mindset. Some conservatives become so convinced their way is the only way. They are so convinced they will fight for laws, for wars, and even for bragging rights at holiday family dinners. I bolded in orange, that conservative mindset.
KittenSaver said it beautifully and it reminds me of what I've seen recently on this board. In general conservatives feel everyone thinks like them or like a generic evil opposite bin. On the other hand, most liberals realize not everyone thinks like them and makes allowances for that. So while yes the knee jerk conservatives look at the other and think evil, etc. almost all the time, most liberals do not do the same.
Or to put it in a more simple way. I think some conservatives look at the world that does not think like them and say 50% of you are wrong and must be eliminated. I like to think that most liberals (think coexist signs) believe the majority are OK and we just have to worry about the hardcore outliers. They look at the world and say less than 10% of you are really really wrong, and how can we as a society fix this with minimal bloodshed? And I'm thankful the latter is energized and prevalent. I love the new Johnny Walker ads. I like how the Beauty community has embraced diversity the more this WH administration does not.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 6, 2017 7:01:35 GMT -5
While I completely agree that life is precious and suicide is anything but desirable I won't go so far as to condemn those who come to the decision to end their lives at the time they wish to do so; nor, do I feel it right to make it difficult for them. As I said, I feel there must be a protective layer between the individual who is suffering and the means to accomplish the ending of that life. I believe this protective layer should serve to educate, to empower, and to mitigate the suffering by other means, if possible. It shouldn't be something, IMO, that one could walk into a booth on the street corner and accomplish. There's nothing Taliban-like in that stance and I resent the implication that there is such staining. *EXACTLY* A great movie that explores the issue of suicide and why it occurs, is 'What Dreams May Come' with Robin Williams as the lead character. www.imdb.com/title/tt0120889/
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 6, 2017 7:02:40 GMT -5
I would agree, for those who have life to live. I would wholeheartedly disagree at end of life decision time. At that point people should be given compassionate choices, imo. Society should guard with zeal against a "slippery slope" toward encouraging the elderly to check out for financial convenience and all of that, but should respect and allow for people's decision to check out when their body and/ or mind will be cruelly failing them. Animals do it Virgil Showlion They go off and die when it is time. if a person doesn't have the right to his own life, what does he have? The ultimate or natural Bill of Rights IMO.
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