Addressing political figures

[moon/Laura]

Thank you to Dem for the idea of letting you guys decide the rule on this.

The prohibition against name calling of political figures was mistakenly referenced to candidates because it was instituted during campaign season. It should read 'figures" rather than 'candidates'. This will include both current AND past figures.


However there has also been some disagreement as to the appropriateness of allowing names that are "in the public domain", such as 'Crooked Hillary', or 'President Trump'.

We are conducting a poll as to whether or not members of P&M wish to see these types of names allowed. Please indicate one of the two choices below:

* Only proper names for political figures to be allowed.

*Terms that are 'In the Public Domain', shall also be allowed, per the original wording in the rule in the CoC.

[Virgil Showlion]

Bump.

Because a mosquito bit me.

[moon/Laura]

You know you can bump (as admin) without having to actually post bad jokes, right?

[Wisconsin Beth]

I am probably getting into the weeds here but if we go the proper name route, what about capitalization? I sometimes don't capitalize out of disrespect and sometimes just due to phone issues.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I voted but I may change my mind after the answers to a couple of questions:

1.    What is the punishment for breaking the rules as I've been known to slip on occasion. I try really hard. I slip sometimes. Is it just a deletion and a warning or is it progressive working towards a ban?

2.    Will this rule accept "orange sack of (insert whatever)" as opposed to Mr. Orange Sack Of (Insert Whatever) Trump"? Or "that nasty woman" as opposed to Hillary Nasty Woman Clinton?  In other words, are people going to be able to work around it by saying stuff like "I didn't say his/her name."?  Will we be limited to just saying President Trump, Former President Obama, Mrs. Clinton, etc.?  Is "The Donald" included in this ban?  I don't find that particular one to be offensive - just kinda dumb.

I'm stressing more on how to vote in this poll than I did on who to vote for in the election. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

This is what happens on a board mostly populated by people with above average IQs. We want more information before making a choice!

[moon/Laura]

Wisconsin Beth - I'm not concerned over capitalization. Just not going to be *that* anal. And, as has been pointed out, there will be some possible confusion when you have a situation like 2 "George Bush"s. In that case, if someone were to say "George W" and leave it at that, I can't see an issue. It's still most of his legal name, verus a derogatory nickname.

Green Eyed Lady -
1. Punishment will be post deletion as it is now. And I suppose if someone were a frequent repeat offender - indicating that they were deliberately thumbing their nose at the rule - we would probably consider a timeout.

2. No. These are already not allowed and that will not change. If people choose the first option, we will expect Trump/Mr. Trump, etc. President Trump (though it is his ancestral name) will no longer be allowed as it isnt *his* legal name. As far as "the Donald", I don't know. To me, it's close enough to his legal name that it would be allowed but would have to be discussed between the staff.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Ok. Thanks Moon.

Personally, I loathe the Donald. It makes me think of bad Scottish trashy novels about "the Laird"

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 23, 2017 11:48:41 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

You know you can bump (as admin) without having to actually post bad jokes, right?

Sure. But how would the people get their daily dose of bad jokes? They might miss out!

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jan 23, 2017 12:48:39 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Ok. Thanks Moon.

Personally, I loathe the Donald. It makes me think of bad Scottish trashy novels about "the Laird"

lol...agreed

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jan 23, 2017 12:33:51 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Wisconsin Beth - I'm not concerned over capitalization. Just not going to be *that* anal. And, as has been pointed out, there will be some possible confusion when you have a situation like 2 "George Bush"s. In that case, if someone were to say "George W" and leave it at that, I can't see an issue. It's still most of his legal name, verus a derogatory nickname.

Green Eyed Lady -
1. Pushnishment will be post deletion as it is now. And I suppose if someone were a frequent repeat offender - indicating that they were deliberately thumbing their nose at the rule - we would probably consider a timeout.

2. No. These are already not allowed and that will not change. If people choose the first option, we will expect Trump/Mr. Trump, etc. President Trump (though it is his ancestral name) will no longer be allowed as it isnt *his* legal name. As far as "the Donald", I don't know. To me, it's close enough to his legal name that it would be allowed but would have to be discussed between the staff.

Thank you. I will work harder on being an adult. I've failed miserably recently.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jan 23, 2017 12:49:13 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 23, 2017 11:48:41 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

You know you can bump (as admin) without having to actually post bad jokes, right?

Sure. But how would the people get their daily dose of bad jokes? They might miss out!

Its nice of you to consider us, but we'll just have to pull up our britches and deal.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Should the first option prevail, it would give me one more reason to be glad I am not a member of the moderation team. You all are going to be busy! If the first option prevails, I vow to do my best a) to refrain from using anything other than the acceptable terms, and b) to refrain from yelling about any term that is used, but accidently missed by the mods who might be away from the board getting their prescriptions for Xanax filled.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 23, 2017 13:05:28 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Should the first option prevail, it would give me one more reason to be glad I am not a member of the moderation team. You all are going to be busy! If the first option prevails, I vow to do my best a) to refrain from using anything other than the acceptable terms, and b) to refrain from yelling about any term that is used, but accidently missed by the mods who might be away from the board getting their prescriptions for Xanax filled.

Two words: auto censor.

It's like a hundred mods in a box.

[djAdvocate]

oh lordy, really?  you are going to retreat on this.

#sad

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jan 23, 2017 13:12:50 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Ok Moon's replies to questions made me think of one.  Would initials be ok under option 1? 

I've used HRC, W, BO, etc and while they aren't exactly proper names I don't think they are disrespectful in any way shape or form 

I dunno...BO means body odor.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 23, 2017 13:31:28 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Jan 23, 2017 13:12:50 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Ok Moon's replies to questions made me think of one.  Would initials be ok under option 1? 

I've used HRC, W, BO, etc and while they aren't exactly proper names I don't think they are disrespectful in any way shape or form 

I dunno...BO means body odor.

that is why i use BHO.  it's like Old Spice.

[mollyanna58]

Jan 23, 2017 13:16:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

oh lordy, really?  you are going to retreat on this.

#sad

Honestly, I have been surprised that a thoughtful person such as yourself continues to use an ancestral spelling as an insult. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jan 23, 2017 13:37:44 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Jan 23, 2017 13:31:28 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I dunno...BO means body odor.

You know I thought about that as I was typing it out.  But I can't say I've ever used it myself.   I think I typically spell out Obama -probably for that reason  

So do I! BO just sounds....stinky.   It seems he deserves more respect than to be referred to as smelly!!!

[djAdvocate]

Jan 23, 2017 13:49:19 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Jan 23, 2017 13:31:28 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I dunno...BO means body odor.

The poster should also please use common sense.  If something is meant as an insult it will be taken as such, and dealt with as such.
If the ruling goes down as such.

and the management should be aware that ridiculing and skewering public figures is part of public discourse.

now, of course, you are under no obligation to engage public discourse.  it is your board to manage.

you can settle for romper room, and you can be Miss MaryAnn.  your choice.  this is a post gender society, after all.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 23, 2017 13:35:59 GMT -5 mollyanna58 said:

Jan 23, 2017 13:16:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

oh lordy, really?  you are going to retreat on this.

#sad

Honestly, I have been surprised that a thoughtful person such as yourself continues to use an ancestral spelling as an insult. 

thanks for the nice compliment.  but i am just playing by President Trump's rules.  oh, and the rules of the board, before now.

i see no reason to treat a person who disrespects everyone with ANY respect.

[djAdvocate]

in case some of you missed it- THIS is why i am fighting this fight:

“With regard to freedom of speech there are basically two positions: you defend it vigorously for views you hate, or you reject it and prefer Stalinist/fascist standards. It is unfortunate that it remains necessary to stress these simple truths.”

you either believe in protecting the speech you hate, or you don't believe in free speech.

i sat quiet for (8) years as Obama was ridiculed and demeaned.  i never ONCE suggested that the ridicule be shut down.  not ONCE.

you President Trump supporters should do the same, imo, if you have any sense of fair play.

but apparently you don't.  i am disappointed that the Democrats don't, but that's cool.  at least i know where everyone stands.

[moon/Laura]

Why do you have to use disparaging terms to ridicule? You can't do so using their given names just as well?

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jan 23, 2017 14:07:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

in case some of you missed it- THIS is why i am fighting this fight:

“With regard to freedom of speech there are basically two positions: you defend it vigorously for views you hate, or you reject it and prefer Stalinist/fascist standards. It is unfortunate that it remains necessary to stress these simple truths.”

you either believe in protecting the speech you hate, or you don't believe in free speech.

i sat quiet for (8) years as Obama was ridiculed and demeaned.  i never ONCE suggested that the ridicule be shut down.  not ONCE.

you President Trump supporters should do the same, imo, if you have any sense of fair play.

but apparently you don't.  i am disappointed that the Democrats don't, but that's cool.  at least i know where everyone stands.

I see it sort of like Kindergarten recess. You aren't allowed to call little Johnny names. Even with freedom of speech, you can't call little Johnny an asshole and not suffer repercussions.  I don't agree that normal public discourse includes ridicule - unless we are talking about the 10 and under public.  I've seen people disagree all the time and remain civil.  It wasn't me, but I've witnessed it!

Things have been censored here before. I saw one person stand up and object about that.  So if one person gets to complain and have a term auto-censored because it offends them - it's not all that out in left field to expect that others will try. 

[moon/Laura]

It boils down to the fact that we have to draw the line somewhere. We can't just have an "anything goes" forum. That's how we get shut down. Freedom of speech is a great concept but in this environment, it's just not possible.

[Green Eyed Lady]

We could also point out that if a certain poster is that offensive to someone, they could simply block them.

[imawino]

Jan 23, 2017 14:07:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

in case some of you missed it- THIS is why i am fighting this fight:

“With regard to freedom of speech there are basically two positions: you defend it vigorously for views you hate, or you reject it and prefer Stalinist/fascist standards. It is unfortunate that it remains necessary to stress these simple truths.”

you either believe in protecting the speech you hate, or you don't believe in free speech.

i sat quiet for (8) years as Obama was ridiculed and demeaned.  i never ONCE suggested that the ridicule be shut down.  not ONCE.

you President Trump supporters should do the same, imo, if you have any sense of fair play.

but apparently you don't.  i am disappointed that the Democrats don't, but that's cool.  at least i know where everyone stands.

I agree. Years of "little barry" "bho" (and you can say what you want, but not even bothering to capitalize the sitting president's initials is meant to be belittling), "shillary" "killary" "barry HUSSEIN SOTERO" etc, etc.   Years.  No censoring, no deleting. Suddenly because people call Trump names it is NOW an issue?  The crowd that likes to poke fun at the delicate snowflakes has made an issue with it?  Color me unsurprised.  I'm sure it's the same people who sat idly by while Trump publicly questioned the sitting president's legitimacy for years; and now constantly yammer on about how we need to "respect the office".  Unreal.   

If that's the rule, that's fine, it doesn't bother me overly much.  But why hasn't it been the rule for the years that people have been demeaning President Obama?   You'll have to go back and delete all of Paul and Shooby's posts, for pete's sake!

[moon/Laura]

Those names have never been "allowed", and there have been many such posts reported and deleted. But you can't expect us to see them all. None of us go into each and every thread, just looking for things that are against the CoC! But if you (general) see them and don't report them, then you (general) are part of the problem.

And obviously, we are not going to go back through every one of the old posts to remove things. Unless, of course, you're ok with me putting the site in maintenance mode for however long it would take us to do so.

[imawino]

Jan 23, 2017 14:53:30 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Those names have never been "allowed", and there have been many such posts reported and deleted. But you can't expect us to see them all. None of us go into each and every thread, just looking for things that are against the CoC! But if you (general) see them and don't report them, then you (general) are part of the problem.

And obviously, we are not going to go back through every one of the old posts to remove things. Unless, of course, you're ok with me putting the site in maintenance mode for however long it would take us to do so.

They have been extremely prevalent, and never commented on that I saw. I never had any idea they weren't allowed.  It seems hard to imagine that that many were never seen by a moderator. 

You're saying that none of those names I listed was ever allowed? 

[moon/Laura]

That is correct. I can only speak for myself that I haven't seen them in my wanderings. That's because you know how I freaking *despise* politics and try to avoid this particular forum like the plague.

I think it's not surprising that they slip through, just due to the sheer volume of posts. And, let's be honest - many don't actually read every word, I'm sure. They skim, like I do. Easy to miss when you do that. But that's why we depend on everyone else to report those things.