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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 8:43:46 GMT -5
My mother will be happy. She's Dutch. She doesn't much care for the English anyway. Apparently, the feeling is mutual. The real travesty in the world is the current generation growing up not knowing who Austin Powers is, I made a reference to it at the office and most the people didn't know what I was talking about.
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copperboxes
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Post by copperboxes on Jun 24, 2016 8:46:24 GMT -5
Yes it will be interesting to see what happens next. My initial research points to leaving as possibly a two year long process. It will be informative to see how it unfolds.
<---- think I will need a lot of this.
Quite frankly, I would not be surprised to see that it never happens. Should see some negotiations and concessions to Britain over the next year. Britain wants more power in the Union, and less central government control. Of course if Cameron did resign, and a new government is formed that is absolutly pro leave, it may be a done deal. At least they never had to overthrow Brussels and the power structure like we did to them to gain our freedom. I actually see this as a lot less like our becoming independent from Britain, and more like the EU taking the other road during the time of the Articles of Confederation. Shattering into independent states, rather than unifying further under the US Constitution. You probably know this already, but when the states first became independent from Britain, the founders were very concerned about a strong central government, and each state wanted to retain it's autonomy. Because of that, our first guiding document, the Articles of Confederation, gave almost all powers to individual states. I gather it was a real mess. After several years, the founders totally scrapped the Articles of Confederation and wrote the Constitution instead, which specifically gave much stronger powers to the central government, so states could be held to agreements they made, and the united strength of the states could be readily drawn together for major projects like commerce and defense. I kind of see Britain leaving as going the alternate route. Like if instead of our Constitution being written, states had said "you know what, this isn't working. We're going our own way, we've got our own laws anyway. Peace." It's not a perfect analogy of course, given the respective histories and geography of the areas. I just see it as closer to the time of the Articles of Confederation. I do get the sense that the current EU set up is unstable, like the Articles, and things will probably accelerate in one direction or another, likely shattering apart since each EU country has such long histories of full autonomy. Just my sense of things.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 24, 2016 8:50:19 GMT -5
Cameron has announced his resignation. The First Minister of Scotland has stated another referendum to split from England is on the table.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 24, 2016 9:15:04 GMT -5
Britain is full of "immigrants" now, from around the world. The ME immigration might have been the final straw. They were not from the old colonies...... The vote yesterday was more about POLITICAL independence rather than immigration issues. The EU started as an economic machine to compete in the world against the USA and Asian behemoths who used technology and simple economic numbers of mass to out perform smaller countries that consisted in Europe. They tore the borders down for economic efficiencies. Unfortunately, the EU had morphed into a political machine where the elite became much stronger and ignored the citizens of the EU. Brussels, Paris and Berlin were now in charge of everything. It has become a miniature version of the old Soviet Union of the sixties and seventies. Also, remember Britain never gave up their own currency. They were never "all in" on the whole EU thing. Actually exit polls showed leave votes state immigration was biggest issue. And people lie in exit polls. And people are pissed. They voted their pocketbooks They were ok with an economic EU. They are not ok with a political EU.
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Value Buy
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 9:19:42 GMT -5
Post by Value Buy on Jun 24, 2016 9:19:42 GMT -5
Quite frankly, I would not be surprised to see that it never happens. Should see some negotiations and concessions to Britain over the next year. Britain wants more power in the Union, and less central government control. Of course if Cameron did resign, and a new government is formed that is absolutly pro leave, it may be a done deal. At least they never had to overthrow Brussels and the power structure like we did to them to gain our freedom. I actually see this as a lot less like our becoming independent from Britain, and more like the EU taking the other road during the time of the Articles of Confederation. Shattering into independent states, rather than unifying further under the US Constitution. You probably know this already, but when the states first became independent from Britain, the founders were very concerned about a strong central government, and each state wanted to retain it's autonomy. Because of that, our first guiding document, the Articles of Confederation, gave almost all powers to individual states. I gather it was a real mess. After several years, the founders totally scrapped the Articles of Confederation and wrote the Constitution instead, which specifically gave much stronger powers to the central government, so states could be held to agreements they made, and the united strength of the states could be readily drawn together for major projects like commerce and defense. I kind of see Britain leaving as going the alternate route. Like if instead of our Constitution being written, states had said "you know what, this isn't working. We're going our own way, we've got our own laws anyway. Peace." It's not a perfect analogy of course, given the respective histories and geography of the areas. I just see it as closer to the time of the Articles of Confederation. I do get the sense that the current EU set up is unstable, like the Articles, and things will probably accelerate in one direction or another, likely shattering apart since each EU country has such long histories of full autonomy. Just my sense of things. Good summation. I am of the opinion the EU will not fall apart. Greece and Italy would have already left, but they need the union. Until Germany says good bye, I think it stays in place. France pretty well needs it to stay strong too. Just depends whether Germany is welling to subsidize it forever.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 24, 2016 9:50:28 GMT -5
Cameron has announced his resignation. The First Minister of Scotland has stated another referendum to split from England is on the table. and boths parts of Ireland are also questioning their future, per an article on Slate.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 24, 2016 10:12:00 GMT -5
Eh, I am not all that shocked at the vote. Britain never really embraced being part of the EU to begin with. Everyone thought they were crazy when they didn't join the Euro currency and stayed with the pound. As it turned out, that wasn't such a bad idea. I don't really get why some are saying this will open doors for Trump. I see zero relation between this and anything Trump has to say. Even if it is a good opportunity for him he won't know how to take advantage of it. He was on television this morning talking about his golf course .
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copperboxes
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Post by copperboxes on Jun 24, 2016 10:39:37 GMT -5
I actually see this as a lot less like our becoming independent from Britain, and more like the EU taking the other road during the time of the Articles of Confederation. Shattering into independent states, rather than unifying further under the US Constitution. You probably know this already, but when the states first became independent from Britain, the founders were very concerned about a strong central government, and each state wanted to retain it's autonomy. Because of that, our first guiding document, the Articles of Confederation, gave almost all powers to individual states. I gather it was a real mess. After several years, the founders totally scrapped the Articles of Confederation and wrote the Constitution instead, which specifically gave much stronger powers to the central government, so states could be held to agreements they made, and the united strength of the states could be readily drawn together for major projects like commerce and defense. I kind of see Britain leaving as going the alternate route. Like if instead of our Constitution being written, states had said "you know what, this isn't working. We're going our own way, we've got our own laws anyway. Peace." It's not a perfect analogy of course, given the respective histories and geography of the areas. I just see it as closer to the time of the Articles of Confederation. I do get the sense that the current EU set up is unstable, like the Articles, and things will probably accelerate in one direction or another, likely shattering apart since each EU country has such long histories of full autonomy. Just my sense of things. That's an interesting perspective. It's based on the premise that the EU is a sovereign entity instead of a conglomeration. Which is interesting in it's own right, since the EU has morphed into something that is different than it's original form. I think it's more that my understanding is that the USA was functionally a conglomeration instead of a sovereign entity under the Articles of Confederation. Under the Articles of Confederation, my understanding is that states were powerful individual entities loosely allied, trying out a common currency for the first time, but there was no strong judicial system or central agencies that could effectively officiate between states or hold them to agreements. With each state being essentially a sovereign country, I gather that abilities to draw together, work in tandem, aid struggling areas, or make legal modifications were extremely chaotic, impractical, or basically outright impossible (My recollection is that modifying the Articles required unanimous agreement). I think the EU is still basically a conglomeration, but it's reaching a crossroads with their current legislation. It seems like looking at history and business case studies that it is generally very problematic for dozens of entities to be tied together for projects unless there's a central authority helping to coordinate and officiate. So there's pushes in the EU to get stronger coordination, and also push back to keep each country more autonomous. Both very understandable. I kind of like the idea of the EU for commerce, but if the countries decide to go their own ways again, I respect that, it's their projects and decisions. Just my sense of things, and like I said, it's not a perfect analogy or anything.
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happyhoix
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 10:46:05 GMT -5
Post by happyhoix on Jun 24, 2016 10:46:05 GMT -5
My mother will be happy. She's Dutch. She doesn't much care for the English anyway. The Dutch are next in line to get out, aren't they? Dexit might be next?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 24, 2016 10:56:37 GMT -5
Last night one of the news stations was blaming Obama for the mess. They said Britain was pro-stay until he went over there and told them they had to stay in ther EU. The next week the leave movement started gaining strength. Evidently the Brits did not appreciate the President telling them what to do. We felt the same way about the King in 1775 Of course Obama is responsible for that.
He's responsible for our slow economy, our student debt problem, our trade deficient, mass murderers killing innocent people, trans people demanding to use the wrong bathrooms, the Atlanta Braves having a crappy season, the drought in the Southeast, and I hold him personally responsible for DH's car engine blowing a spark plug.
What do you expect when you elect a Muslim terrorist Antichrist from Indonesia to be POTUS?
There will be no happy children or sunny days on the planet until he's out of office.
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Value Buy
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 11:07:50 GMT -5
Post by Value Buy on Jun 24, 2016 11:07:50 GMT -5
Last night one of the news stations was blaming Obama for the mess. They said Britain was pro-stay until he went over there and told them they had to stay in ther EU. The next week the leave movement started gaining strength. Evidently the Brits did not appreciate the President telling them what to do. We felt the same way about the King in 1775 Of course Obama is responsible for that.
He's responsible for our slow economy, our student debt problem, our trade deficient, mass murderers killing innocent people, trans people demanding to use the wrong bathrooms, the Atlanta Braves having a crappy season, the drought in the Southeast, and I hold him personally responsible for DH's car engine blowing a spark plug.
What do you expect when you elect a Muslim terrorist Antichrist from Indonesia to be POTUS?
There will be no happy children or sunny days on the planet until he's out of office.
I kind of mis-spoke earlier. The station was talking to a Brit in London who made the observation about the President lecturing British citizens on the exit. You know, like he does to us.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jun 24, 2016 11:12:06 GMT -5
Last night one of the news stations was blaming Obama for the mess. They said Britain was pro-stay until he went over there and told them they had to stay in ther EU. The next week the leave movement started gaining strength. Evidently the Brits did not appreciate the President telling them what to do. We felt the same way about the King in 1775 Of course Obama is responsible for that.
He's responsible for our slow economy, our student debt problem, our trade deficient, mass murderers killing innocent people, trans people demanding to use the wrong bathrooms, the Atlanta Braves having a crappy season, the drought in the Southeast, and I hold him personally responsible for DH's car engine blowing a spark plug.
What do you expect when you elect a Muslim terrorist Antichrist from Indonesia to be POTUS?
There will be no happy children or sunny days on the planet until he's out of office.
Get your facts straight, you raving lunatic. We all know he's from Kenya!
I am pretty pissed off about the Braves. At least now I know who to blame!
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 24, 2016 11:32:29 GMT -5
The Dutch are cheering us on..... they want a referendum too.
Obamas intervention didn't go down too well. It was pointed out that if another Country told the US that they had to have an open border with 500 million poor neighbours He would tell them to get stuffed. Also, he was seen as protecting his unratified treaty with the EU and the dreaded TTIP arrangements (which no-one wants)
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 24, 2016 11:38:07 GMT -5
What has been a shock is how out of touch our government has been with the mood of the electorate. Many people have been saying that if we have had all this growth........where is it?.....because it hasn't travelled out of London.
Our left wing party (Labour) supported Remain...... and they found that their voters overwhelmingly went for Brexit. what the heck?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 24, 2016 11:40:29 GMT -5
My mother will be happy. She's Dutch. She doesn't much care for the English anyway. The Dutch are next in line to get out, aren't they? Dexit might be next?
They're lining up. Frexit. Italexit. Swexit. Grexit. TPTB aren't even acknowledging a problem exists. They're out in force trying to calm bankers' nerves, shore up liquidity, and protect their assets. No "we will do better", "we will make changes", "we will be held accountable". Money and power. Power and money. The immigration issue, membership fees, and TTIP pushed Britain over the edge.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jun 24, 2016 13:29:58 GMT -5
I voted to stay in, as did everyone else in my immediate family.
We lost. I find the entire thing deeply troubling. The campaign to leave focused on immigration. But, there are so many other consequences. I think Scotland will have another referendum on independence that they are far more likely to win, as all of Scotland voted to stay. I think there is the possibility that the IRA raises it's head again, as the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland will be re-established. Reciprocal heathcare will be a thing of the past. it's scary stuff.
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 13:41:53 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 13:41:53 GMT -5
My mother will be happy. She's Dutch. She doesn't much care for the English anyway. She doesn't care for the English ? I just had it described to me, last week on this forum no less, that the EU was a "utopia". It's starting not to look like it.
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djAdvocate
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 15:38:49 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jun 24, 2016 15:38:49 GMT -5
great news for me. my portfolio rose 1/2% today.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 24, 2016 15:45:13 GMT -5
If Great Britain could do this, we now have to re-think Trump and his run for the Presidency. I think he just upped his chances. The world has tilted away from the status quo. yep, he did. he is no longer a 1:4 longshot. he rocketed up to 2:7
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 15:47:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 15:47:07 GMT -5
I guess this is one we'll just have to wait and watch and see unfold.
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djAdvocate
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 15:48:35 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jun 24, 2016 15:48:35 GMT -5
Prime Minister Boris, and President Trump. Whew, prospects for the future are dizzying! Kind of like 2008 Change for change sake. You guys were happy about that at the time, and most of you are still slap happy giggly over it. i was happy seeing the backside of Bush. i was happy not seeing Bible Spice as VP. other than that, things went pretty well for me this last (8) years- but i am a 10%-er.
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djAdvocate
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 15:51:59 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jun 24, 2016 15:51:59 GMT -5
Actually exit polls showed leave votes state immigration was biggest issue. And people lie in exit polls. And people are pissed. They voted their pocketbooks They were ok with an economic EU. They are not ok with a political EU. people very rarely lie during exit polling. that is why they are the gold standard for vote verification.
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djAdvocate
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 15:55:25 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jun 24, 2016 15:55:25 GMT -5
Last night one of the news stations was blaming Obama for the mess. They said Britain was pro-stay until he went over there and told them they had to stay in ther EU. The next week the leave movement started gaining strength. Evidently the Brits did not appreciate the President telling them what to do. We felt the same way about the King in 1775 Of course Obama is responsible for that.
He's responsible for our slow economy, our student debt problem, our trade deficient, mass murderers killing innocent people, trans people demanding to use the wrong bathrooms, the Atlanta Braves having a crappy season, the drought in the Southeast, and I hold him personally responsible for DH's car engine blowing a spark plug.
What do you expect when you elect a Muslim terrorist Antichrist from Indonesia to be POTUS?
There will be no happy children or sunny days on the planet until he's out of office.
....just as things were so rosy prior to him getting there......
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happyhoix
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 16:04:22 GMT -5
Post by happyhoix on Jun 24, 2016 16:04:22 GMT -5
Of course Obama is responsible for that.
He's responsible for our slow economy, our student debt problem, our trade deficient, mass murderers killing innocent people, trans people demanding to use the wrong bathrooms, the Atlanta Braves having a crappy season, the drought in the Southeast, and I hold him personally responsible for DH's car engine blowing a spark plug.
What do you expect when you elect a Muslim terrorist Antichrist from Indonesia to be POTUS?
There will be no happy children or sunny days on the planet until he's out of office.
Get your facts straight, you raving lunatic. We all know he's from Kenya!
I am pretty pissed off about the Braves. At least now I know who to blame!
Now now. If you only look at what, the last 8 games, they're stellar!
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NastyWoman
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 17:15:10 GMT -5
Post by NastyWoman on Jun 24, 2016 17:15:10 GMT -5
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 17:17:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 17:17:23 GMT -5
So if Gibralter, Northern Ireland and Scottland leave, it's not UK e it, it's just England exit... Does that play the same?
in in other news close was only 600 down today...
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 17:27:03 GMT -5
Post by Opti on Jun 24, 2016 17:27:03 GMT -5
My mother will be happy. She's Dutch. She doesn't much care for the English anyway. She doesn't care for the English ? I just had it described to me, last week on this forum no less, that the EU was a "utopia". It's starting not to look like it.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jun 24, 2016 17:49:07 GMT -5
Well I have to say, no matter how this turns out in the world, congrats to GB. They got guts (well 52% of them do, anyway ) and they apparently are willing to take the pain now in hopes for a better tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 19:01:28 GMT -5
Well, it's the old people who voted for it... So they don't really need to worry as much about tomorrow...
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Virgil Showlion
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BREXIT!
Jun 24, 2016 20:10:23 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 24, 2016 20:10:23 GMT -5
And people lie in exit polls. And people are pissed. They voted their pocketbooks They were ok with an economic EU. They are not ok with a political EU. people very rarely lie during exit polling. that is why they are the gold standard for vote verification. People lie like Persian rugs during exit polls, which is one of the reasons they weren't used for the Brexit. People lie predictably, meaning that pollsters can compare data to recent baselines, factor out the predictable bias, and wind up with reasonably accurate results. The last baseline for a vote of this kind in Britain was more than four decades ago, making it worthless. Hence, no exit polls. British reporting and privacy laws also played a part.
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