djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 16, 2016 18:47:33 GMT -5
m That's part of the problem, and it's not just on education. Americans think that the solution is always more resources and government involvement. Even with more government spending and government involvement, are the schools really better for it? When will people filigree out that more taxes, spending, and government oversight won't solve all of the problems of this nation? I think the biggest problems with education is poor parenting, and lack of parental involvement. No amount of government spending can overcome a bad home life. um...i think i just suggested the opposite, Phoenix. are you suggesting that i am not an American? you don't seem to think that throwing money at it is the solution. are you an American? let's not bring parents into this discussion. i am not convinced that American parents are that much worse than Finnish parents, and even if they were, i sure as HELL don't want government regulating families. do you?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 16, 2016 18:48:44 GMT -5
m That's part of the problem, and it's not just on education. Americans think that the solution is always more resources and government involvement. Even with more government spending and government involvement, are the schools really better for it? When will people filigree out that more taxes, spending, and government oversight won't solve all of the problems of this nation? I think the biggest problems with education is poor parenting, and lack of parental involvement. No amount of government spending can overcome a bad home life. So, you're saying that American parents are worse than the parents of other countries? Why do you suppose that is?
do you suppose that is?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 17, 2016 4:13:25 GMT -5
So, you're saying that American parents are worse than the parents of other countries? Why do you suppose that is?
do you suppose that is? I'm not the one who suggested that poor parenting is to blame for American kids lagging behind.
It's probably a combination of things.
You have a greater percentage of people living in poverty and socioeconomic disparity than many other countries. Hungry kids can't learn.
You have worse diets than many other countries. Fast food isn't the best fuel.
Other countries invest heavily in early childhood education. It does make a difference.
Top-ranked nations have instructional systems driven by strong standards that foster key skills such as critical thinking. The GOP in the US opposes teaching critical thinking skills in schools.
(www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/)
You place a great deal of emphasis on sports in high school. High school football is huge, and you have many kids hoping for sports scholarships. Other countries don't give much of a damn about sports. School is for learning.
You don't pay your teachers very well and they command little respect. Teachers are revered in places like Finland.
I don't know what the answer is. A little of all of the above, I suspect.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2016 10:46:29 GMT -5
I'm not the one who suggested that poor parenting is to blame for American kids lagging behind.
i know. but you were "playing along" with the argument, so i thought i would ask.
It's probably a combination of things.
You have a greater percentage of people living in poverty and socioeconomic disparity than many other countries. Hungry kids can't learn.
You have worse diets than many other countries. Fast food isn't the best fuel.
Other countries invest heavily in early childhood education. It does make a difference.
Top-ranked nations have instructional systems driven by strong standards that foster key skills such as critical thinking. The GOP in the US opposes teaching critical thinking skills in schools.
(www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/)
You place a great deal of emphasis on sports in high school. High school football is huge, and you have many kids hoping for sports scholarships. Other countries don't give much of a damn about sports. School is for learning.
You don't pay your teachers very well and they command little respect. Teachers are revered in places like Finland.
I don't know what the answer is. A little of all of the above, I suspect.
there is also considerable mental illness here, and a lot of violence in the culture. i am sure that doesn't help. thanks for the thoughtful and lengthy reply.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 18, 2016 8:10:00 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2016 10:37:11 GMT -5
of course. but did you add 17.1% that the average American pays for healthcare?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 18, 2016 18:07:42 GMT -5
of course. but did you add 17.1% that the average American pays for healthcare? What I find interesting is that the corporate tax rate is only 20%. In our country the liberals scream about corporate welfare yet praise countries like Finland that tax individuals at much higher rates than corporations
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 18, 2016 19:24:05 GMT -5
of course. but did you add 17.1% that the average American pays for healthcare? What I find interesting is that the corporate tax rate is only 20%. In our country the liberals scream about corporate welfare yet praise countries like Finland that tax individuals at much higher rates than corporations Moot point. Finland spends $5,653 per child, whereas the US spends $7,743 per child, with far worse results. How much people are taxed seems to have very little to do with it.
rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 18, 2016 20:02:32 GMT -5
What I find interesting is that the corporate tax rate is only 20%. In our country the liberals scream about corporate welfare yet praise countries like Finland that tax individuals at much higher rates than corporations Moot point. Finland spends $5,653 per child, whereas the US spends $7,743 per child, with far worse results. How much people are taxed seems to have very little to do with it.
rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/
What does Finland do with special ed kids? Averaging $2k more per student doesn't mean much if the lion's share of the budget is going to kids with learning disabilities while the smart kids get the scraps. How does transportation fit into this? Do the majority of Finnish kids take a school bus or do they take public transit? In many school districts, transportation accounts for 25% of the budget. How many Finnish kids are being raised in unstable households? Poor or single parent households are one thing. Households headed by someone who hasn't shown an ounce of initiative or common sense are something else. My area spends diddly squat on schools. But since most of the kids are coming from stable, two parent households, the schools are able to have a wonderful special ed program for my middle child, high school kids regularly knock out 2 years of college by the time they graduate, and they have all kids of innovative programs, like foreign language immersion, kick ass vocational programs and a science and technology academy. How do the two country's schools handle disruptive kids?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2016 20:32:54 GMT -5
of course. but did you add 17.1% that the average American pays for healthcare? What I find interesting is that the corporate tax rate is only 20%. In our country the liberals scream about corporate welfare yet praise countries like Finland that tax individuals at much higher rates than corporations you were saying:
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2016 20:33:41 GMT -5
What I find interesting is that the corporate tax rate is only 20%. In our country the liberals scream about corporate welfare yet praise countries like Finland that tax individuals at much higher rates than corporations Moot point. Finland spends $5,653 per child, whereas the US spends $7,743 per child, with far worse results. How much people are taxed seems to have very little to do with it.
rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/
precisely. so, let's cut our cost 25% and get better results.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2016 20:35:02 GMT -5
What does Finland do with special ed kids? Averaging $2k more per student doesn't mean much if the lion's share of the budget is going to kids with learning disabilities while the smart kids get the scraps. How does transportation fit into this? Do the majority of Finnish kids take a school bus or do they take public transit? In many school districts, transportation accounts for 25% of the budget. How many Finnish kids are being raised in unstable households? Poor or single parent households are one thing. Households headed by someone who hasn't shown an ounce of initiative or common sense are something else. My area spends diddly squat on schools. But since most of the kids are coming from stable, two parent households, the schools are able to have a wonderful special ed program for my middle child, high school kids regularly knock out 2 years of college by the time they graduate, and they have all kids of innovative programs, like foreign language immersion, kick ass vocational programs and a science and technology academy. How do the two country's schools handle disruptive kids? programs are custom tailored to students, so i am guessing they do very well with special ed/needs there. but perhaps one or two members who are FAR more knowledgeable on this subject can answer this better than me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 18, 2016 21:21:47 GMT -5
I don't imagine Finland is over run by free loaders and criminals.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 18, 2016 22:54:27 GMT -5
... ... In many school districts, transportation accounts for 25% of the budget. ... I found this an interesting claim. So I did research. ... As it does with so many other areas of school spending, New York state leads the nation in the cost to transport its pupils, ...
... transportation, which currently takes up about 6 percent of school spending,. ..
www.timesunion.com/local/article/School-bus-costs-called-the-first-in-line-4129719.php So New York leads the nation and it is at about 6%. Makes me seriously question "...many ... 25% ...".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2016 23:17:04 GMT -5
I don't imagine Finland is over run by free loaders and criminals. it doesn't follow that we should not use their system because of that fact.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 19, 2016 6:12:14 GMT -5
No, what follows is that education and other valuable resources should be for citizens of this country. Not illegals and their families.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Apr 19, 2016 10:08:19 GMT -5
So, up until about the time we decided that everyone was entitled to an education? That seems about right. I'm just saying, as I've said before, Why Jonney can't read was written in the 1950s. Holt wrote in 60s. This is not a few years issue. It's been debated since the conception of public education. i don't honestly know, but Finland seems to think that everyone is entitled to an education, and they seem to be doing pretty well with the concept. what's our fucking problem? Having too many people? Finland has about 6million people total and is very homogeneous.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 19, 2016 10:34:42 GMT -5
i don't honestly know, but Finland seems to think that everyone is entitled to an education, and they seem to be doing pretty well with the concept. what's our fucking problem? Having too many people? Finland has about 6million people total and is very homogeneous. so pick a homogenous state like Wyoming, and do it there. if it works, franchise the idea to Montana. etc, etc, etc. i am sick of the excuses. aren't you? we are talking about our future, fc.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 19, 2016 12:22:49 GMT -5
I'm not the one who suggested that poor parenting is to blame for American kids lagging behind.
It's probably a combination of things.
You have a greater percentage of people living in poverty and socioeconomic disparity than many other countries. Hungry kids can't learn.
You have worse diets than many other countries. Fast food isn't the best fuel.
Other countries invest heavily in early childhood education. It does make a difference.
Top-ranked nations have instructional systems driven by strong standards that foster key skills such as critical thinking. The GOP in the US opposes teaching critical thinking skills in schools.
(www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/)
You place a great deal of emphasis on sports in high school. High school football is huge, and you have many kids hoping for sports scholarships. Other countries don't give much of a damn about sports. School is for learning.
You don't pay your teachers very well and they command little respect. Teachers are revered in places like Finland.
I don't know what the answer is. A little of all of the above, I suspect.
I question your assertion of child hunger in the U.S being a cause. I did a quick search, and found that the US is second on "relative" child poverty rates, defined as part of families that fall below half of the median income, but no data actually relating to hunger. Same with food stamps, half of all food stamp recipients are kids, but again, no data on actual hunger or deprivation as compared to other countries. In theory, if a kid (or rather their parents) are getting food stamps, the kids are getting fed. If not, that's their parents fault, not the governments.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 19, 2016 15:06:07 GMT -5
i think Singapore also ranks high in terms of primary education. i know S. Korea does. Yes they do...and they also spend LESS per student than we do. So why aren't we also looking at how they do that? It's just a guess, but my guess is that it's not the spending so much as what it is being spent on or not being spent on....just like with healthcare when people want to try and complain that the US is spending more per capita than other countries without the same results.
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