djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2016 11:01:20 GMT -5
They might not have the same set up we do. I used Singapore math for elementary. Then at 7th it switched formats, they basically only have 3 more years, 7-9, and they cover math comprehensively, i.e. They don't do algebra and geometry and trig etc seperately, but together. I switched and went with something more like our system... Not sure if that was the right call? IBut anyway, their entire system probably looks different. i think Singapore also ranks high in terms of primary education. i know S. Korea does.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 15, 2016 11:02:05 GMT -5
I agree that the public school system is too politicized and teachers need more control over what and how they teach. I also agree that critical thinking is sorely lacking. I loved that the took the kids to the middle of the woods, gave them a map, and have them navigate out. That's an awesome exercise, something I wish we did here. you COMMUNIST! Heh, sometimes I have bright ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 11:04:48 GMT -5
Just looked. Finland starts at 7 with 9 years compulsory, so that takes to 9th grade. So same thing. Basics are probably 6 yr primary, 3 years 'elementary' (our middle/high) then they can either join work force, go to vocational school training or go to secondary (our high/college prep).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 11:06:06 GMT -5
Singapore's math is like off the charts Ok, I actually think it's 2nd? But very easily accessible here.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 15, 2016 11:06:54 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie. ... The problems of middle and high school have their beginnings at the elementary school level. That is where we need to start the changes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 11:08:27 GMT -5
But also changing so that 'standard' requirements end at 9th and after that you can specialize is also not a bad idea...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 15, 2016 11:15:37 GMT -5
... I agree that the public school system is too politicized and teachers need more control over what and how they teach. I also agree that critical thinking is sorely lacking. I loved that the took the kids to the middle of the woods, gave them a map, and have them navigate out. That's an awesome exercise, something I wish we did here. Not that Phenoix84 is in this posting, but one should not confuse "local control" with "teacher control". In fact, local control can be the most oppressive of teacher independence.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 15, 2016 12:14:12 GMT -5
Just looked. Finland starts at 7 with 9 years compulsory, so that takes to 9th grade. So same thing. Basics are probably 6 yr primary, 3 years 'elementary' (our middle/high) then they can either join work force, go to vocational school training or go to secondary (our high/college prep). How does this work exactly? In the U.S, you can't really legally work for the most part until 16, and work laws are still pretty restrictive until 18. If you decide to go to school until 9th grade, and try to join the labor force at 14, you're going to be pretty limited on what you can do.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 12:25:05 GMT -5
It is 16. 7 year start plus 9 years compulsory. Most labor laws after 16 here are restrctive BECAUSE of school. without it, less restrictions. ie. # hours per school day, etc. in summers there are very few restrictions for 16+, and what there are would be mitigated by their being in lower positions.
that said Most don't go work at 16 route, but it's a viable option. I'd guess it's also a great option for people who are as prepared at 16 as they are likely to be at 18 for the entry level they are getting (i.e. Lower intelligence, lower skill level).
Other options are various vocational or secondary training, lots more options than we have here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 12:27:59 GMT -5
You can work legally here before 16. Its just hard to find a job. Which is why children of people who own a business are at an advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 12:33:20 GMT -5
That so important anne.
So many people yelling about 'common core' that its not what they know. But there is so little global math sense in an algorithmic approach. I was trying to help a girl this week with 2 digit multiplication and i was talking about the different ways to possibly approach the problem and trying to get her to tell me, now when you see this problem, how does your mind thinkg about the problem, and she just could't. She had learned an algorithm, and without it she really had no conceptulization of the numbers themselves and their components, just the 'steps to follow'...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 15, 2016 12:47:53 GMT -5
Have you ever tried to get a kid to look at a math answer and tell you if that answer "made sense"? "You had some, you took some away, and now you have more than when you started - does that make sense?" "But I followed the steps I was taught, it has to be right."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 13:27:15 GMT -5
'Convince me' is one of my favorite math games
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 13:28:54 GMT -5
Early in Singapore we were doing like 2 Eds = 1 Tom... Early algebraic reasoning.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 15, 2016 14:20:46 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie. While there may be good things to adopt from Finland, what works in a small, homogenous country like Finland may not work in a large, diverse country like the U.S. These are typical Montreal students. Hardly homogenous. Same goes for Toronto. And yet, we're kicking your butts in the PISA tests, so don't blame it on a homogenous population.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 15, 2016 14:36:52 GMT -5
loved that the took the kids to the middle of the woods, gave them a map, and have them navigate out.
Oh god I'd be doomed. I am forbidden from leaving DH's side when we go mushroom hunting because he said I'm one of those people who would die three feet away from the road.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2016 15:22:43 GMT -5
i just wanted to thank everyone for the good, thoughtful, and well informed replies on this thread.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 15, 2016 17:00:44 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie. While there may be good things to adopt from Finland, what works in a small, homogenous country like Finland may not work in a large, diverse country like the U.S. These are typical Montreal students. Hardly homogenous. Same goes for Toronto. And yet, we're kicking your butts in the PISA tests, so don't blame it on a homogenous population.
Daesh! And pretty soon she will bring a clock in a briefcase to her AP engineering class. (Sorry, DJ, for going off topic.)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2016 17:32:48 GMT -5
These are typical Montreal students. Hardly homogenous. Same goes for Toronto. And yet, we're kicking your butts in the PISA tests, so don't blame it on a homogenous population.
Daesh! And pretty soon she will bring a clock in a briefcase to her AP engineering class. (Sorry, DJ, for going off topic.) made me chuckle, so you are absolved.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Apr 15, 2016 18:56:03 GMT -5
And how many actually do something to help their kids earn it? And just paying for college doesn't count. How many of those 2/3 surveyed (and who exactly was surveyed?) are actually involved in their kids' lives, much less their education?
Of course, I could just use your arguments when it comes to surveys/stats: I don't really trust the source of that survey, so those numbers are probably wrong...
you're moving the goalposts. but it is good that you are backing off your "parents don't care" claim. well done. I haven't backed off it...just because some parents want their kids to get college degrees doesn't mean they care about their education. Just asking someone "do you want your kid to get a college degree?" is just a very benign question. Did they ask what the parents do to make sure their kids succeed in school? No. Or did they ask do you want your kids to grauduate with a degree by just scraping by with minimum grades? No. Did they ask if it would be okay if the kids got the degree by cheating? No!
Of course they want them to get the degrees - so they get paid good money and move the hell out of their house!
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Apr 15, 2016 19:08:18 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie. While there may be good things to adopt from Finland, what works in a small, homogenous country like Finland may not work in a large, diverse country like the U.S. These are typical Montreal students. Hardly homogenous. Same goes for Toronto. And yet, we're kicking your butts in the PISA tests, so don't blame it on a homogenous population.
I doubt those are "typical" students, since they seem to be getting an award of some kind...unless Canada gives out "Typical Student" awards
But even so,
Canada = 77% Caucasian (by the most recent census)
U.S. = 64% Caucasian
So Canada is still much more homogenous...
And Finland doesn't even keep demographic statistics, probably because they would feel it a waste to go and count the few thousand people of other races living around the country But if you count the number of people whose native languages are Finnish, Swedish, and Russian then that's about 97% of the population.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Apr 15, 2016 19:11:32 GMT -5
They might not have the same set up we do. I used Singapore math for elementary. Then at 7th it switched formats, they basically only have 3 more years, 7-9, and they cover math comprehensively, i.e. They don't do algebra and geometry and trig etc seperately, but together. I switched and went with something more like our system... Not sure if that was the right call? IBut anyway, their entire system probably looks different. i think Singapore also ranks high in terms of primary education. i know S. Korea does. Yes they do...and they also spend LESS per student than we do. So why aren't we also looking at how they do that?
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Apr 15, 2016 19:39:27 GMT -5
i think Singapore also ranks high in terms of primary education. i know S. Korea does. Yes they do...and they also spend LESS per student than we do. So why aren't we also looking at how they do that? Because it might burst the mythical bubble that the US knows all and is better than everyone else on the planet. We wouldn't dare admit that something is wrong unless it is a political year and well we know how that goes. This needs fixing, that need fixing and if elected I will fix it - crapola and the things they try to "fix" usually end up in a cluster F.
The Jaded One.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2016 19:41:25 GMT -5
i think Singapore also ranks high in terms of primary education. i know S. Korea does. Yes they do...and they also spend LESS per student than we do. So why aren't we also looking at how they do that? Finland also spends half per pupil what we do: nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.aspit should be pretty easy to figure out why, if we had any interest in changing our system.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2016 19:42:22 GMT -5
Yes they do...and they also spend LESS per student than we do. So why aren't we also looking at how they do that? Because it might burst the mythical bubble that the US knows all and is better than everyone else on the planet. We wouldn't dare admit that something is wrong unless it is a political year and well we know how that goes. This needs fixing, that need fixing and if elected I will fix it - crapola and the things they try to "fix" usually end up in a cluster F.
The Jaded One.
that's not jaded. it is a fact. i mentioned early in the thread that we don't need no Euro-Sissies telling us what to do. and that is a shame, because they clearly do THIS PARTICULAR THING way better than we do.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 16, 2016 3:15:06 GMT -5
These are typical Montreal students. Hardly homogenous. Same goes for Toronto. And yet, we're kicking your butts in the PISA tests, so don't blame it on a homogenous population.
I doubt those are "typical" students, since they seem to be getting an award of some kind...unless Canada gives out "Typical Student" awards
But even so,
Canada = 77% Caucasian (by the most recent census)
U.S. = 64% Caucasian
So Canada is still much more homogenous...
And Finland doesn't even keep demographic statistics, probably because they would feel it a waste to go and count the few thousand people of other races living around the country But if you count the number of people whose native languages are Finnish, Swedish, and Russian then that's about 97% of the population.
It looks exactly like my son's classes in high school. My house was always full of Korean, Pakistani, Chinese and African kids....his friends from school.
(13% more is not much more.)
The rural areas in Canada are white, but the cities are extremely diverse. Toronto's visible minorities account for about half the population of the city.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 16, 2016 10:55:47 GMT -5
Yes they do...and they also spend LESS per student than we do. So why aren't we also looking at how they do that? Finland also spends half per pupil what we do: nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.aspit should be pretty easy to figure out why, if we had any interest in changing our system. m That's part of the problem, and it's not just on education. Americans think that the solution is always more resources and government involvement. Even with more government spending and government involvement, are the schools really better for it? When will people filigree out that more taxes, spending, and government oversight won't solve all of the problems of this nation? I think the biggest problems with education is poor parenting, and lack of parental involvement. No amount of government spending can overcome a bad home life.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 16, 2016 10:59:25 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie. While there may be good things to adopt from Finland, what works in a small, homogenous country like Finland may not work in a large, diverse country like the U.S. These are typical Montreal students. Hardly homogenous. Same goes for Toronto. And yet, we're kicking your butts in the PISA tests, so don't blame it on a homogenous population.
My point is the answer isnt as simple as "emulate Singapore/Canada/Finland." Sure, some of the concepts might work, but each country is different, and requires unique solutions. "Just do what that country does" is just an over simplistic answer.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 16, 2016 11:11:52 GMT -5
m That's part of the problem, and it's not just on education. Americans think that the solution is always more resources and government involvement. Even with more government spending and government involvement, are the schools really better for it? When will people filigree out that more taxes, spending, and government oversight won't solve all of the problems of this nation? I think the biggest problems with education is poor parenting, and lack of parental involvement. No amount of government spending can overcome a bad home life. So, you're saying that American parents are worse than the parents of other countries? Why do you suppose that is?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 16, 2016 12:23:45 GMT -5
m That's part of the problem, and it's not just on education. Americans think that the solution is always more resources and government involvement. Even with more government spending and government involvement, are the schools really better for it? When will people filigree out that more taxes, spending, and government oversight won't solve all of the problems of this nation? I think the biggest problems with education is poor parenting, and lack of parental involvement. No amount of government spending can overcome a bad home life. So, you're saying that American parents are worse than the parents of other countries? Why do you suppose that is?
An interesting question. I think illegal immigration is part of the problem, other countries exporting their poor and destitute to the u.s. It's pretty hard to teach kids who don't speak English. I also think drug use is part of the problem.
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