Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,860
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Apr 12, 2016 16:47:31 GMT -5
One of the ways America could work is to have the fifty state choose what they think is best for their state. Instead we have Washington decide what it thinks is best and push it onto everyone. None of the states can veer off and be great. We hobble all to the same standards. No, the results you think you want didn't work with state control and it hasn't worked since NCLB was implemented.
|
|
NoNamePerson
Distinguished Associate
Is There Anybody OUT There?
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 17:03:17 GMT -5
Posts: 25,747
Location: WITNESS PROTECTION
|
Post by NoNamePerson on Apr 12, 2016 18:09:57 GMT -5
While I appreciate the article, this isn't new news. Finnish Lessons by Pasi Sahlberg was published in 2011. There are significant differences in how teachers are treated inFinland compared to the USA. The political ramifications and undfinded mandates set forth by the federal and state governments have hindered educators the last 25-35 years since a report called A Nation at Risk was published. (I'm on my phone during my prep. I needed a five minute breather. I'll be back later this evening. ) The report didn't go back far enough!!
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 12, 2016 18:13:58 GMT -5
Wonder where we are now on the list of best educated countries. Won't google since it is probably an old list out there and then I would have to research who made up the list - US which would show us as in top 5 most likely. 17th, when i checked last night.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 12, 2016 18:15:20 GMT -5
Cudos DJ!! good article. "Our mission is to protect children from politicians" A noble concept. for such a short article, it had quite a few zingers.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 7:24:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2016 19:42:35 GMT -5
One of the ways America could work is to have the fifty state choose what they think is best for their state. Instead we have Washington decide what it thinks is best and push it onto everyone. None of the states can veer off and be great. We hobble all to the same standards. No, the results you think you want didn't work with state control and it hasn't worked since NCLB was implemented. I dont understand what you are saying.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 13, 2016 5:18:58 GMT -5
How does Finland handle non citizens not speaking their language? How does Finland handle bad parenting resulting in fetal children?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 13, 2016 10:23:40 GMT -5
Well there you go. You're doomed.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 13, 2016 10:56:50 GMT -5
How does Finland handle non citizens not speaking their language? How does Finland handle bad parenting resulting in fetal children? i don't know- but 94% of the population speaks Finnish as a 1st language, 44% speaks Swedish as a 2nd language- and both are considered "official". 70% of the population speaks English as a "foreign language". there is no official language in the US. 80% of us speak English as a first language, 12.4% speak Spanish. did you mean FERAL children?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 13, 2016 11:23:28 GMT -5
Finnish is a transparent orthography. It takes on average two years less to learn than English. thanks for increasing my vocabulary by one word today!
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 13, 2016 11:34:16 GMT -5
I have to stand up for English learners! It's hard! Our language is a mishmash of influences, 1/3 of words aren't spelled phonetically, and we have 40+ sounds. i wud bee in fayver uv muveng tu fonetik spelingz.
|
|
Waffle
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 12, 2011 11:31:54 GMT -5
Posts: 4,391
|
Post by Waffle on Apr 13, 2016 12:34:03 GMT -5
I have to stand up for English learners! It's hard! Our language is a mishmash of influences, 1/3 of words aren't spelled phonetically, and we have 40+ sounds. i wud bee in fayver uv muveng tu fonetik spelingz. I wouldn't. It took me way too long to sound that out.!
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,512
|
Post by billisonboard on Apr 13, 2016 13:15:09 GMT -5
I have to stand up for English learners! It's hard! Our language is a mishmash of influences, 1/3 of words aren't spelled phonetically, and we have 40+ sounds. I worked with "challenged learners" and had one complaining about this one time. I told him, "Sorry, (sucks) to be you having been born into this language."
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 13, 2016 16:55:51 GMT -5
How does Finland handle non citizens not speaking their language? How does Finland handle bad parenting resulting in fetal children? i don't know- but 94% of the population speaks Finnish as a 1st language, 44% speaks Swedish as a 2nd language- and both are considered "official". 70% of the population speaks English as a "foreign language". there is no official language in the US. 80% of us speak English as a first language, 12.4% speak Spanish. did you mean FERAL children? Yes, I did. I spell checked and corrected it twice but it still insisted on fetal instead of feral.
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,860
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Apr 13, 2016 23:19:34 GMT -5
No, the results you think you want didn't work with state control and it hasn't worked since NCLB was implemented. I dont understand what you are saying. Hickle, it is the competition that is ruining education and making it impossible for American teachers to do their jobs.
State control has already happened and continues to happen. It doesn't work in the sense of success that you think you're talking about because when states are compared to each other it's comparing apples to oranges. The unfunded mandates in my state are both educationally and financially crazy. I'm sure the same happens in other states. Graduation requirements are different in each state. None of that has actually improved critical thinking, which is what "everyone" wants as a result of a high school education. So then, the federal government wants to implement the CCSS.
(As a side note I actually like the CCSS as a document and as high standards. It is just too many standards for anyone to effectively teach or learn in one year. There are 55 ELA standards in each grade 6 - 8 and then in the 9-10 & 11-12 bands; this does not count sub-standards. I have 36 weeks in a school year--172 days, 50 minutes per day. That's 156 minutes to learn and demonstrate at least three time each standard. Not going to happen.)
Because the US Constitution doesn't address education, federal requirements are only tied to money. For general/regular education found int Title 1, requirements are tied to 10% of the funding that school districts have as a whole from local, state, and federal funding. Last I checked, and I'm not going to right now, Utah accepts no federal funding so they don't have meet the reading and math requirements that the states who do accept Title 1 funding must meet.
Every district must meet Special Education requirements or face ethical charges and penalties, but the federal funding for meeting those requirements is grossly inadequate. Because it's inadequate and Special Education laws must still be met both in academics through IEPs and through Maintenance of Effort, districts must use their state and local funding to meet the SpEd requirements.
"People" want these human beings who have IQ ranges of 50 - 150 to all have the exact same outcomes based on these language arts and mathematics standards using the exact same tests. People want an easily quantifiable metric to assess whether or not human beings are learning. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CREATE SUCH A METRIC.
It's a clusterfuck. If you've read many of my posts, you know I don't use inappropriate language often.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 14, 2016 1:12:40 GMT -5
I dont understand what you are saying. Hickle, it is the competition that is ruining education and making it impossible for American teachers to do their jobs.
State control has already happened and continues to happen. It doesn't work in the sense of success that you think you're talking about because when states are compared to each other it's comparing apples to oranges. The unfunded mandates in my state are both educationally and financially crazy. I'm sure the same happens in other states. Graduation requirements are different in each state. None of that has actually improved critical thinking, which is what "everyone" wants as a result of a high school education. So then, the federal government wants to implement the CCSS.
(As a side note I actually like the CCSS as a document and as high standards. It is just too many standards for anyone to effectively teach or learn in one year. There are 55 ELA standards in each grade 6 - 8 and then in the 9-10 & 11-12 bands; this does not count sub-standards. I have 36 weeks in a school year--172 days, 50 minutes per day. That's 156 minutes to learn and demonstrate at least three time each standard. Not going to happen.)
Because the US Constitution doesn't address education, federal requirements are only tied to money. For general/regular education found int Title 1, requirements are tied to 10% of the funding that school districts have as a whole from local, state, and federal funding. Last I checked, and I'm not going to right now, Utah accepts no federal funding so they don't have meet the reading and math requirements that the states who do accept Title 1 funding must meet.
Every district must meet Special Education requirements or face ethical charges and penalties, but the federal funding for meeting those requirements is grossly inadequate. Because it's inadequate and Special Education laws must still be met both in academics through IEPs and through Maintenance of Effort, districts must use their state and local funding to meet the SpEd requirements.
"People" want these human beings who have IQ ranges of 50 - 150 to all have the exact same outcomes based on these language arts and mathematics standards using the exact same tests. People want an easily quantifiable metric to assess whether or not human beings are learning. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CREATE SUCH A METRIC.
It's a clusterfuck. If you've read many of my posts, you know I don't use inappropriate language often. impressive, Chloe. and as far as i can tell, precisely correct. the Finnish model is absolutely anti-competitive. it places a high value on equality and creativity, and an extremely low value on "winning" and conformity. it is pretty much the opposite of what we do, in every respect. what is more, it is pretty much the opposite of what we regard as core values in our society and in our educational system. i read this article (4) years ago, but i remembered it instantly when you posted this tonight: www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/there are some really important lessons to learn from Finland. if we stopped acting like jealous, self centered adolescents, and started acting like adults, perhaps we could learn them. edit: PS- what is your background?
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,860
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Apr 14, 2016 8:12:41 GMT -5
Djpolldancer, I have a BS in English and Writing and a Master's of Arts in Teaching. I am wired to be a middle school teacher. I spent five years teaching 6th-8th grades. My "highly qualified" teaching license is for self-contained 3rd- 8th and language arts middle level 5th - 9th. My state teaching license is any and all core subjects 3rd-8th. HQ trumps state licensure for the last ten years, but that's changing with the recent renewal. I have the graduate credits for a reading endorsement but I never added it to my license because I didn't want to be involuntarily transferred. I just wanted to actually know how to teach reading which is far different than teaching language arts.
I've spent five years in instructional coaching and administration. For that, I have another 26-graduate credit license. Last year, I was laid off without enough time for both my husband I to find work elsewhere. I am teaching this year.
|
|
jkapp
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 12:05:08 GMT -5
Posts: 5,416
|
Post by jkapp on Apr 14, 2016 9:04:56 GMT -5
So, up until about the time we decided that everyone was entitled to an education? That seems about right. I'm just saying, as I've said before, Why Jonney can't read was written in the 1950s. Holt wrote in 60s. This is not a few years issue. It's been debated since the conception of public education. i don't honestly know, but Finland seems to think that everyone is entitled to an education, and they seem to be doing pretty well with the concept. what's our fucking problem? Too many parents don't give a shit about education and many teachers only care about keeping their tenure and increasing their pay/benefits.
None of which can be fixed by spending more money or changing testing...
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Apr 14, 2016 13:20:27 GMT -5
i don't honestly know, but Finland seems to think that everyone is entitled to an education, and they seem to be doing pretty well with the concept. what's our fucking problem?
Consider this: the entire population of Finland is currently +/- about 5.4 million people.
There are a few large metropolitan areas in the US that are almost TWICE that size. There are several more that are that size or close to it.
There are about 18 or 19 States in the US that are bigger (population-wise) than the entire Country of Finland.
The bigger you get, the harder it is to manage social programs and initiatives on a national level (like education, healthcare, etc).
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 14, 2016 14:07:36 GMT -5
i don't honestly know, but Finland seems to think that everyone is entitled to an education, and they seem to be doing pretty well with the concept. what's our fucking problem? Too many parents don't give a shit about education and many teachers only care about keeping their tenure and increasing their pay/benefits.
None of which can be fixed by spending more money or changing testing...
by what measure? according to this survey, 2/3 of US parents expect their kids to get Bachelor's degrees: www.childtrends.org/?indicators=parental-expectations-for-their-childrens-academic-attainmentand i think that Finland pays teachers way more than we do- so you must be talking about something other than teacher pay.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 14, 2016 14:10:19 GMT -5
Consider this: the entire population of Finland is currently +/- about 5.4 million people.
There are a few large metropolitan areas in the US that are almost TWICE that size. There are several more that are that size or close to it.
There are about 18 or 19 States in the US that are bigger (population-wise) than the entire Country of Finland.
The bigger you get, the harder it is to manage social programs and initiatives on a national level (like education, healthcare, etc).
so, you are saying that because we are bigger, we can't handle it?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 14, 2016 14:10:55 GMT -5
Djpolldancer, I have a BS in English and Writing and a Master's of Arts in Teaching. I am wired to be a middle school teacher. I spent five years teaching 6th-8th grades. My "highly qualified" teaching license is for self-contained 3rd- 8th and language arts middle level 5th - 9th. My state teaching license is any and all core subjects 3rd-8th. HQ trumps state licensure for the last ten years, but that's changing with the recent renewal. I have the graduate credits for a reading endorsement but I never added it to my license because I didn't want to be involuntarily transferred. I just wanted to actually know how to teach reading which is far different than teaching language arts. I've spent five years in instructional coaching and administration. For that, I have another 26-graduate credit license. Last year, I was laid off without enough time for both my husband I to find work elsewhere. I am teaching this year. powerful.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Apr 14, 2016 16:10:13 GMT -5
Consider this: the entire population of Finland is currently +/- about 5.4 million people.
There are a few large metropolitan areas in the US that are almost TWICE that size. There are several more that are that size or close to it.
There are about 18 or 19 States in the US that are bigger (population-wise) than the entire Country of Finland.
The bigger you get, the harder it is to manage social programs and initiatives on a national level (like education, healthcare, etc).
so, you are saying that because we are bigger, we can't handle it? At some levels - yes. Big bloated government bureaucracies are never efficient about anything. They manage to "get it done" - but very often in the middling ground with lots of outliers who fall between the cracks.
Individuality and creativity represent chaos to a bureaucracy.
|
|
jkapp
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 12:05:08 GMT -5
Posts: 5,416
|
Post by jkapp on Apr 14, 2016 18:49:46 GMT -5
Too many parents don't give a shit about education and many teachers only care about keeping their tenure and increasing their pay/benefits.
None of which can be fixed by spending more money or changing testing...
by what measure? according to this survey, 2/3 of US parents expect their kids to get Bachelor's degrees: www.childtrends.org/?indicators=parental-expectations-for-their-childrens-academic-attainmentand i think that Finland pays teachers way more than we do- so you must be talking about something other than teacher pay. And how many actually do something to help their kids earn it? And just paying for college doesn't count. How many of those 2/3 surveyed (and who exactly was surveyed?) are actually involved in their kids' lives, much less their education?
Of course, I could just use your arguments when it comes to surveys/stats: I don't really trust the source of that survey, so those numbers are probably wrong...
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 14, 2016 20:34:24 GMT -5
so, you are saying that because we are bigger, we can't handle it? At some levels - yes. Big bloated government bureaucracies are never efficient about anything. They manage to "get it done" - but very often in the middling ground with lots of outliers who fall between the cracks.
Individuality and creativity represent chaos to a bureaucracy.
i am not going to argue against this- but IF it is so, then we should commit ourselves to changing that.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 14, 2016 20:35:35 GMT -5
And how many actually do something to help their kids earn it? And just paying for college doesn't count. How many of those 2/3 surveyed (and who exactly was surveyed?) are actually involved in their kids' lives, much less their education?
Of course, I could just use your arguments when it comes to surveys/stats: I don't really trust the source of that survey, so those numbers are probably wrong...
you're moving the goalposts. but it is good that you are backing off your "parents don't care" claim. well done.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 15, 2016 10:00:47 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie.
While there may be good things to adopt from Finland, what works in a small, homogenous country like Finland may not work in a large, diverse country like the U.S.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2016 10:55:37 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie. While there may be good things to adopt from Finland, what works in a small, homogenous country like Finland may not work in a large, diverse country like the U.S. perhaps- but there is absolutely NO reason to think that it would not work in a small, homogenous US city or county. but we won't even try it because....MERICA!~!!
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 15, 2016 10:59:06 GMT -5
Interesting artical, but it focused on elementary education, not middle and high school where the real problems lie. While there may be good things to adopt from Finland, what works in a small, homogenous country like Finland may not work in a large, diverse country like the U.S. perhaps- but there is absolutely NO reason to think that it would not work in a small, homogenous US city or county. but we won't even try it because....MERICA!~!! I agree that the public school system is too politicized and teachers need more control over what and how they teach. I also agree that critical thinking is sorely lacking. I loved that the took the kids to the middle of the woods, gave them a map, and have them navigate out. That's an awesome exercise, something I wish we did here.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 7:24:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 11:00:15 GMT -5
They might not have the same set up we do. I used Singapore math for elementary. Then at 7th it switched formats, they basically only have 3 more years, 7-9, and they cover math comprehensively, i.e. They don't do algebra and geometry and trig etc seperately, but together. I switched and went with something more like our system... Not sure if that was the right call? IBut anyway, their entire system probably looks different.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2016 11:00:26 GMT -5
perhaps- but there is absolutely NO reason to think that it would not work in a small, homogenous US city or county. but we won't even try it because....MERICA!~!! I agree that the public school system is too politicized and teachers need more control over what and how they teach. I also agree that critical thinking is sorely lacking. I loved that the took the kids to the middle of the woods, gave them a map, and have them navigate out. That's an awesome exercise, something I wish we did here. you COMMUNIST!
|
|