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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 22:11:53 GMT -5
Not worth the trouble. Plus... I just realized I DIDN'T "quote" him on that one... go back to my OP. You'll notice no quote marks around it (and no edited notation... so you can't say "well.. you must have edited them out").
My mistake was taking you at your word that I'd quoted him. I apologize for assuming you were stating a fact. I'll try not to let that happen again.
The meaning of what I wrote and his actual words however... are basically equal. The difference being he said "If you've got", and I typed "If you have a". Yeah... I can TOTALLY see the world ending discrepancy there... NOT!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 22:18:51 GMT -5
Context man. Context.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 12, 2016 23:14:16 GMT -5
Not worth the trouble. Plus... I just realized I DIDN'T "quote" him on that one... go back to my OP. You'll notice no quote marks around it (and no edited notation... so you can't say "well.. you must have edited them out"). My mistake was taking you at your word that I'd quoted him. I apologize for assuming you were stating a fact. I'll try not to let that happen again. ... You do realize that there is a written record of what we said? For example: How about this one: ... You can google it... I did. (I remembered the quote... but didn't want to misrepresent it... so I wanted to be able to "copy & paste"... That's actually what I did for both Obama AND Trump {wherever a quote was involved}). ... A great response would be for you to now go back and show the post or posts in which I said you quoted him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 23:45:46 GMT -5
Not worth the trouble. Plus... I just realized I DIDN'T "quote" him on that one... go back to my OP. You'll notice no quote marks around it (and no edited notation... so you can't say "well.. you must have edited them out"). My mistake was taking you at your word that I'd quoted him. I apologize for assuming you were stating a fact. I'll try not to let that happen again. ... You do realize that there is a written record of what we said? For example: How about this one: ... You can google it... I did. (I remembered the quote... but didn't want to misrepresent it... so I wanted to be able to "copy & paste"... That's actually what I did for both Obama AND Trump {wherever a quote was involved}). ... A great response would be for you to now go back and show the post or posts in which I said you quoted him. As I said (and you must have missed) not really worth it. You had a gripe about something I attributed to Obama. I've proven Obama said a perfectly equivalent variation of it. Can we let it go since we BOTH agree that he said it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 23:48:35 GMT -5
... Time doesn't erase facts... only revisionsts do that. True that. For example, here is the fact: "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jul/18/context-obamas-you-didnt-build-comment/ And here is the revision: ... 02: If you have a business, you didn't build that. On second thought.... Here is you saying I messed up the quote via your "and here is the revision"... basically accusing me of misquoting. So... there you go.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 13, 2016 5:39:00 GMT -5
... As I said (and you must have missed) not really worth it. You had a gripe about something I attributed to Obama. I've proven Obama said a perfectly equivalent variation of it. Can we let it go since we BOTH agree that he said it? Got to thinking about this and realized you are Right on this issue. I encourage everyone to watch this video that you posted so that that they can see how Right, how very very Right, you are on this.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 14, 2016 13:10:32 GMT -5
wow, bills. you are right. i have never actually CAREFULLY listened to that.
he is actually not even talking about BUSINESSES when he says "you didn't build that". he is talking about INFRASTRUCTURE.
just....wow.
i can't believe how weird people got about that comment, now. really. shocking.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 14, 2016 18:56:22 GMT -5
wow, bills. you are right. i have never actually CAREFULLY listened to that. he is actually not even talking about BUSINESSES when he says "you didn't build that". he is talking about INFRASTRUCTURE. just....wow. i can't believe how weird people got about that comment, now. really. shocking. Oh yeah! You never knew that?
It goes to show mostly how far partisan hacks will go to create a sound bite to deceive the even more mindless voters. What is truly scary is how well it works most of the time.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 14, 2016 21:35:08 GMT -5
wow, bills. you are right. i have never actually CAREFULLY listened to that. he is actually not even talking about BUSINESSES when he says "you didn't build that". he is talking about INFRASTRUCTURE. just....wow. i can't believe how weird people got about that comment, now. really. shocking. Oh yeah! You never knew that?
It goes to show mostly how far partisan hacks will go to create a sound bite to deceive the even more mindless voters. What is truly scary is how well it works most of the time.
let me put it to you this way. i heard the quote in context before, but i never really thought CAREFULLY about it. now that i have thought CAREFULLY about it, i can see that the offense is ENTIRELY manufactured. and yes, that is a bit surprising.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 22:22:22 GMT -5
wow, bills. you are right. i have never actually CAREFULLY listened to that. he is actually not even talking about BUSINESSES when he says "you didn't build that". he is talking about INFRASTRUCTURE. just....wow. i can't believe how weird people got about that comment, now. really. shocking. Oh yeah! You never knew that?
It goes to show mostly how far partisan hacks will go to create a sound bite to deceive the even more mindless voters. What is truly scary is how well it works most of the time.
I know it's about infrastructure... but it's infrastructure that EVERYONE uses (or can if they want to). That's what makes the "if you've got a business, you didn't build that" comment so asinine. If you've got a business and you did it without government grants... then yes... you DID "build that". I'd agree with him if he'd limited his comment to people that have businesses only by the grace of government grants and special loans (like are freely given to immigrants, but us actual citizens don't qualify for them)... but he didn't do that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 22:30:06 GMT -5
I had a teen bitching about the government once, context? I know we were talking about the fact that he bought a gun and then sold it for a profit and how if he did that for a business he'd have to pay taxes and the government had no right to that. I asked questions and it turned out the transaction had included driving on roads the government built, talking on rural phone lines the government helped install, the mail system, involved currency that the goverment gives legitimacy... It's amazing how he managed to do everything on his own...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 14, 2016 22:50:32 GMT -5
Oh yeah! You never knew that?
It goes to show mostly how far partisan hacks will go to create a sound bite to deceive the even more mindless voters. What is truly scary is how well it works most of the time.
I know it's about infrastructure... but it's infrastructure that EVERYONE uses (or can if they want to). That's what makes the "if you've got a business, you didn't build that" comment so asinine. If you've got a business and you did it without government grants... then yes... you DID "build that". I'd agree with him if he'd limited his comment to people that have businesses only by the grace of government grants and special loans (like are freely given to immigrants, but us actual citizens don't qualify for them)... but he didn't do that. no, that is not it at all. it has nothing to do with business, imo. it had to do with infrastructure. the comment was in essence "you didn't build the infrastructure that helped you build your business", and that is generally true. generally as in 99% of the time.
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 14, 2016 22:54:48 GMT -5
Oh yeah! You never knew that?
It goes to show mostly how far partisan hacks will go to create a sound bite to deceive the even more mindless voters. What is truly scary is how well it works most of the time.
I know it's about infrastructure... but it's infrastructure that EVERYONE uses (or can if they want to). That's what makes the "if you've got a business, you didn't build that" comment so asinine. If you've got a business and you did it without government grants... then yes... you DID "build that". I'd agree with him if he'd limited his comment to people that have businesses only by the grace of government grants and special loans (like are freely given to immigrants, but us actual citizens don't qualify for them)... but he didn't do that. Here is the clip you posted: I encourage people to listen to it so you see how Right Richard is in his assessment.
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Post by tallguy on Feb 14, 2016 23:02:04 GMT -5
Oh yeah! You never knew that?
It goes to show mostly how far partisan hacks will go to create a sound bite to deceive the even more mindless voters. What is truly scary is how well it works most of the time.
I know it's about infrastructure... but it's infrastructure that EVERYONE uses (or can if they want to). That's what makes the "if you've got a business, you didn't build that" comment so asinine. If you've got a business and you did it without government grants... then yes... you DID "build that". I'd agree with him if he'd limited his comment to people that have businesses only by the grace of government grants and special loans (like are freely given to immigrants, but us actual citizens don't qualify for them)... but he didn't do that. Finish the quote to put it in context:
Makes it a lot more difficult to denigrate the comment if you do that....
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 14, 2016 23:19:36 GMT -5
... Finish the quote to put it in context: ... Makes it a lot more difficult to denigrate the comment if you do that.... Also when you read what leads into it: "There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. "The point is, ...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 23:21:43 GMT -5
I know it's about infrastructure... but it's infrastructure that EVERYONE uses (or can if they want to). That's what makes the "if you've got a business, you didn't build that" comment so asinine. If you've got a business and you did it without government grants... then yes... you DID "build that". I'd agree with him if he'd limited his comment to people that have businesses only by the grace of government grants and special loans (like are freely given to immigrants, but us actual citizens don't qualify for them)... but he didn't do that. Here is the clip you posted: I encourage people to listen to it so you see how Right Richard is in his assessment. I've listened to it several times... It doesn't change the facts. He's talking about shared infrastructure THEN he says "If you've got a business you didn't build that" Yes. If you poured your money into it and paid your taxes into it and paid for garbage removal and all the city service fees... yes, you damn well DID build that. I agree that building the infrastructure wasn't "singular"... it was everyone, collectively, via taxes... but building a business is different from building and supporting infrastructure. If you can't understand that, I cannot help you.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 14, 2016 23:26:57 GMT -5
Here is the clip you posted: I encourage people to listen to it so you see how Right Richard is in his assessment. I've listened to it several times... It doesn't change the facts. He's talking about shared infrastructure THEN he says "If you've got a business you didn't build that" Yes. If you poured your money into it and paid your taxes into it and paid for garbage removal and all the city service fees... yes, you damn well DID build that. I agree that building the infrastructure wasn't "singular"... it was everyone, collectively, via taxes... but building a business is different from building and supporting infrastructure. If you can't understand that, I cannot help you. And if you can't see or appreciate what comes after, "The point is..." we cannot help you either. You do not get a full picture just from that video clip. Go beyond it to see the whole thing.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 14, 2016 23:33:44 GMT -5
this is how I heard the quote. and let's be truthful, for once. this is spoken word. how it is transcribed is for the papers, but this is how i HEARD it:
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help, there was a great teacher somewhere in your life, somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive, somebody invested in roads and bridges (If you’ve got a business --) you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.
i see "if you've got a business" as TOTALLY IMMATERIAL to the point. as an ASIDE.
but sure, if you are totally obsessed with Obama The Socialist, then ... it somehow becomes the FOCUS of this passage.
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 14, 2016 23:36:59 GMT -5
...I've listened to it several times... ... Got you. Here is the clip you posted: I encourage people to listen to it to see how Right you are in regards to what it says.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 14, 2016 23:44:37 GMT -5
It is just as much of an imagined offense as most of what he gets attacked with. I am not an apologist for the president, nor do I believe he has done everything right, but most of what he is attacked with is utterly ridiculous, made-up nonsense. It is created for effect, nothing more. There are legitimate reasons to oppose certain things. Just use those.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 0:42:12 GMT -5
...I've listened to it several times... ... Got you. Here is the clip you posted: I encourage people to listen to it to see how Right you are in regards to what it says. The more you post it I guess the more right they will see about what I said. If they understand the difference between "collective investment" and "individual investment". And as to the "somewhere along the line you had a great..." (paraphrased)... How does he know? Maybe the business owner became a business owner because they DIDN'T have that great example or life. Maybe they did it in SPITE of all the crappy oppression trying to push them down. Many people succeed due to strife rather than succeed due to coddling and ease.
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 15, 2016 0:48:26 GMT -5
Got you. Here is the clip you posted: I encourage people to listen to it to see how Right you are in regards to what it says. The more you post it I guess the more right they will see about what I said. ... I would make a different guess. I think they will see how Right you are.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 1:07:24 GMT -5
The more you post it I guess the more right they will see about what I said. ... I would make a different guess. I think they will see how Right you are. That guess would be wrong then...
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 15, 2016 8:22:50 GMT -5
Got you. Here is the clip you posted: I encourage people to listen to it to see how Right you are in regards to what it says. The more you post it I guess the more right they will see about what I said. If they understand the difference between "collective investment" and "individual investment". And as to the "somewhere along the line you had a great..." (paraphrased)... How does he know? Maybe the business owner became a business owner because they DIDN'T have that great example or life. Maybe they did it in SPITE of all the crappy oppression trying to push them down. Many people succeed due to strife rather than succeed due to coddling and ease. You're missing the point completely. Obama isn't saying your effort to build a business was coddled and easy because the government did everything for you.
If you start a business in this country, you know it won't get destroyed in a civil war. You know your business won't get torched because you're a different religion from your neighbors. You know you will be able to hook up to reliable electricity, water, and sewer connections. You know you will be able to get decent cell phone and internet hook ups. You know there will be a pool of decently educated people to select as employees. You know there are several package delivery services, including the US mail, that can reliably deliver your products, or, if you ship and receive large amounts of materials, you know you can load a truck and ship it across country without having it be attacked by pirates or stuck on bad roads or damaged bridges. Most importantly, you know if you make good product at a decent price you have customers with money to buy them, because the economy is decent.
None of these things are under the control of the business owner directly, yet all of them are essential to the success of the business. If this wasn't true, we could all build a furniture company in the middle of the Sahara, work hard and earn millions. Obviously, no one does that, because it can't help but fail, being located in a desert.
Our country is the greatest incubator of new ideas and new businesses because everything needed to be successful is present here. You still have to have good ideas and work hard, you still have to take risks, but if you do, you are more likely to be successful here then you are almost anyplace else in the world - THAT's what Obama meant. Your business doesn't operate in a vacuum.
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 15, 2016 8:47:59 GMT -5
I would make a different guess. I think they will see how Right you are. That guess would be wrong then... So here is my example for supporting evidence: wow, bills. you are right. i have never actually CAREFULLY listened to that. he is actually not even talking about BUSINESSES when he says "you didn't build that". he is talking about INFRASTRUCTURE. just....wow. i can't believe how weird people got about that comment, now. really. shocking. So, I am good with encouraging people to listen to the video that you posted.
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 15, 2016 9:22:17 GMT -5
The government did not build the infrastructure, We the taxpayer built it.
Unless the government is generating money out of this air.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 9:30:32 GMT -5
So you didn't listen either oc?
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 15, 2016 9:44:14 GMT -5
The government did not build the infrastructure, We the taxpayer built it. Unless the government is generating money out of this air. I pay my taxes but I haven't built any of the infrastructure. YMMV. "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. That someone who invested was the rest of us.
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 15, 2016 15:26:20 GMT -5
The government did not build the infrastructure, We the taxpayer built it. Unless the government is generating money out of this air. Of course our tax dollars paid for it. France isn't going to come over here and build a post office for us, or make roads, or provide police to keep the peace, or fire fighters to put out the fires for us.
The whole point of a government (and the reason most of us don't want to live in anarchy) is to provide a relatively safe and stable community that fosters a sense of fairness and security among it's citizens, and provides businesses a place to thrive.
We can fight about how much money the government needs to collect to do this, and we can argue about whether the government ought to be dictating whether or not you are allowed to your byproducts into community resources like the air or the surface water, but it seems self evident (at least to me) that we provide one of the most business friendly communities in the world. You won't be nearly as successful trying to pull together a start up in the Congo or India or even France (where you aren't allowed to fire anyone).
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 15, 2016 20:31:56 GMT -5
The government did not build the infrastructure, We the taxpayer built it. Unless the government is generating money out of this air. Of course our tax dollars paid for it. France isn't going to come over here and build a post office for us, or make roads, or provide police to keep the peace, or fire fighters to put out the fires for us.
The whole point of a government (and the reason most of us don't want to live in anarchy) is to provide a relatively safe and stable community that fosters a sense of fairness and security among it's citizens, and provides businesses a place to thrive.
We can fight about how much money the government needs to collect to do this, and we can argue about whether the government ought to be dictating whether or not you are allowed to your byproducts into community resources like the air or the surface water, but it seems self evident (at least to me) that we provide one of the most business friendly communities in the world. You won't be nearly as successful trying to pull together a start up in the Congo or India or even France (where you aren't allowed to fire anyone).
Go ahead, Start a business here, 6,9, months may be a year later you might have you business open. Go to India maybe 15 minutes you can start your business!
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