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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 13, 2016 15:13:16 GMT -5
And I am hoping that someone here can give me some perspective.
When we last left off, my dad died and left his wife fairly well cared for. The house, which she can live in as long as she wants, is titled in me, my siblings and her name. It is fully paid for and between taxes, insurance and utilities, she probably is not paying any more than $500/mo. My dad made sure she had new appliances, furnace, car, roof, etc.....all paid for.....before he died. He left her about $50K in cash and she has her SS and possibly some of his military disability income.
In the year since dad has died, she has taken a trip to NYC with her daughter, traded in the car and bought a new one, put in a patio and paid for a wedding for her son. In all, it would not surprise me if she's gone through a good 1/3 of what dad left her.
She has one daughter that has medical issues, this daughter is the addict and she needs medical treatment in NYC. So her sister set up a Go Fund Me (that has had little action) to pay for the NYC expenses that will be incurred. The daughter with medical issues has SSI and Medicaid, so while she does not have a lot of income, her medical expenses should be covered. Said daughter is also a chain smoker, and probably smokes the better part of her SSI income.
<Smoking is another issue. When dad was alive, no one was allowed to smoke in the house. Wife has since started smoking and I know that if she's smoking in the house, it will be harder to sell in a real estate market that isn't exactly booming. Yet I have no idea as to how to approach this with her.>
So my brother calls me, wanting to know if we should buy the wife out of the house. He is afraid that with wife's daugher's medical/travel expenses, she might try to put a lien against the house. I don't want to buy the house. If the house is no longer needed, it will be sold....period. There is not going to be this half assed measure of having a house that we (me and my siblings own) and wife and her kids live there free. Also, this is somewhat of a protective measure for the wife as if there is a bolus of income she receives from the sale of the house, there is no doubt in my mind that she will go through it and wind up totally destitute.
My dad's wife took fantastic care of him while he was alive, so I feel an obligation to help her. However, I feel no obligation to her kids. My sister describes this as a shell game and she's right. We support my dad's wife so she can continue to funnel funds to her kids. So indirectly, we would be supporting her kids.
So.....I guess my questions are......can someone put a lien on a house (this is in NY) when there are other owners? Do all owners have to sign off on something like this? Secondly, how do I make sure that wife does not sign papers of financial responsibility for her daughter's medical care? I know Medicaid in other states cover everything, but am afraid that wife would sign something that would make her financially responsible for things that Medicaid may deny.
ETA: Every single one of my fears that I have posted in my previous threads on this saga are coming to life. Dammit, I hate being right!
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jan 13, 2016 15:23:33 GMT -5
I don't know the answer to your lien questions but I do want to say how much I like your loyalty to your stepmother.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 13, 2016 15:31:23 GMT -5
Sounds like a question for swamp to me since I believe that she does the legal part of real estate in NYS
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Jan 13, 2016 15:33:02 GMT -5
I can't imagine she can take out a loan without everyone's signature on the paperwork but I'm not a lawyer or banker. To me it would be mind boggling if it was allowed.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 13, 2016 15:38:42 GMT -5
I'm sorry mich. someone flagged swamp who's probably the most useful poster to you for this. But my sympathies because this doesn't sound like it's g oing to end well.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 13, 2016 15:40:36 GMT -5
But my sympathies because this doesn't sound like it's g oing to end well.
Yeah, my crystal ball is telling me the same thing.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jan 13, 2016 15:57:35 GMT -5
I can't imagine she can take out a loan without everyone's signature on the paperwork but I'm not a lawyer or banker. To me it would be mind boggling if it was allowed. that might stop her from getting a loan on the property but I don't know about a lien. That could be a whole 'nother ball of wax.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 13, 2016 15:58:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry mich. someone flagged swamp who's probably the most useful poster to you for this. But my sympathies because this doesn't sound like it's g oing to end well. Hey, woohoo! Somebody? First you turn down my invite for the Superbowl Parties around here if your Packers make it and now I am just "somebody"?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 13, 2016 16:05:08 GMT -5
I'm sorry mich. someone flagged swamp who's probably the most useful poster to you for this. But my sympathies because this doesn't sound like it's g oing to end well. Hey, woohoo! Somebody? First you turn down my invite for the Superbowl Parties around here if your Packers make it and now I am just "somebody"? Sorry NastyWoman, it's my stupid phone. I can't go back in midpoint and see whom I'm refetencing. God, I hate having to be the adult at work and not play online anymore. I miss my full keyboard, my emoticons and the ability to see a full screen of posts. Cue sobbing and anger.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 13, 2016 16:05:52 GMT -5
Also I miss my chances at proofreading too.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 13, 2016 16:08:45 GMT -5
Also also, I really miss you all too. I read posts but I liked chatting with you all. I better end up with a new, better paying job for all this suffering...
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 13, 2016 16:10:13 GMT -5
Hey, woohoo! Somebody? First you turn down my invite for the Superbowl Parties around here if your Packers make it and now I am just "somebody"? Sorry NastyWoman , it's my stupid phone. I can't go back in midpoint and see whom I'm refetencing. God, I hate having to be the adult at work and not play online anymore. I miss my full keyboard, my emoticons and the ability to see a full screen of posts. Cue sobbing and anger. vade et amplius iam noli peccare
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jan 13, 2016 16:17:55 GMT -5
I will be interested to see how this works out. While both my parents are alive, the are tenants-in-common so when one of them passes the kids of the other would then own the property with the remaining spouse. As my dad is about 8 years older, it's more probable that he would be the person going first. My step-mother is very financially conservative so I don't anticipate any issues, but I am curious about the general advice. Because you never know how things will turn out.
It does sound like a huge mess. And if you buy out your step-mother would that mean that she couldn't live there anymore? Or would you let her live there rent free?
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Jan 13, 2016 16:33:50 GMT -5
I can't imagine she can take out a loan without everyone's signature on the paperwork but I'm not a lawyer or banker. To me it would be mind boggling if it was allowed. that might stop her from getting a loan on the property but I don't know about a lien. That could be a whole 'nother ball of wax. Doh, I misread it that she thought she would take out a loan for the medical care. This working while posting thing doesn't always work out 100%
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jan 13, 2016 17:48:44 GMT -5
I will be interested to see how this works out. While both my parents are alive, the are tenants-in-common so when one of them passes the kids of the other would then own the property with the remaining spouse. As my dad is about 8 years old, it's more probable that he would be the person going first. My step-mother is very financially conservative so I don't anticipate any issues, but I am curious about the general advice. Because you never know how things will turn out. It does sound like a huge mess. And if you buy out your step-mother would that mean that she couldn't live there anymore? Or would you let her live there rent free? No, no...I don't think your dad is 8 years old.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 13, 2016 18:25:00 GMT -5
And if you buy out your step-mother would that mean that she couldn't live there anymore? Or would you let her live there rent free?
If I buy her out and let her continue to live there, it also means that her kids live there too. Right now, one already does and I anticipate a second moving in. When she goes, I would then have the mess of trying to evict her children long distance and I don't want to do that.
Also, as long as she lives there and we don't buy her out, she has a stake in the house. If we buy her out, she becomes a tenant and has no incentive to keep the property up. She'll have her money, what does she care what happens to the house?
So no....that's not on the table, nor will it ever be. If she doesn't want to live in the house, the house will be sold and no one will live there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 18:36:15 GMT -5
I'm not a lawyer and this happened in NJ, but for what it's worth: when I was divorcing my Ex, he fell behind on rent in the cheap motel where he'd moved after he was removed from the house with a Restraining Order. When we all met to put together a Property Settlement, it turned out there was a UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) lien on the house, filed by the motel. I had no clue and I'm careful with paperwork.
My lawyer gasped, "They can't do that", but apparently they could. It was paid out of his share of the proceeds when we sold the house.
So, there may be ways for a creditor to attach a lien to the house.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 13, 2016 18:47:33 GMT -5
I'm not a lawyer and this happened in NJ, but for what it's worth: when I was divorcing my Ex, he fell behind on rent in the cheap motel where he'd moved after he was removed from the house with a Restraining Order. When we all met to put together a Property Settlement, it turned out there was a UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) lien on the house, filed by the motel. I had no clue and I'm careful with paperwork. My lawyer gasped, "They can't do that", but apparently they could. It was paid out of his share of the proceeds when we sold the house. So, there may be ways for a creditor to attach a lien to the house. I really didn't want to hear that, Athena...I had hoped that someone couldn't do this, but apparently they can. .
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jan 13, 2016 19:35:45 GMT -5
Liens are easy if they do anything related to the house like repair work the house owes the money. For example if you hire a contractor who buys roofing material for your house and doesn't pay even if you paid the contractor for it the supplier can lien your house for materials as can subcontractors.
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Jan 13, 2016 19:40:58 GMT -5
I agree with Athena on the liens, just based on my own experiences. I'm sure I could contract for home improvements, with potential liens, without my husband/co-owner.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 13, 2016 19:41:30 GMT -5
You can't stop her from signing up (deliberately or inadvertently) to accept responsibility for DD's non-Medicaid covered expenses. You can't stop her from funneling money to her kids. If she ends up encumbering "her share" of the house (which clearly affects ALL of you, by lien or some other mechanism), then all you can do to not have her and her ilk be a stone around yours and DB's necks is to sell the house. Her portion of the sale will pay for the encumbrances, and you and DB will pocket your portions. And if she has any left that she blows - - well, not your problem. I know you said you feel some responsibility for her, but even so . . . there are limits. It's hard (and painful and ultimately fruitless) to accept responsibility for someone who won't accept responsibility for themselves. She can move in with her kids, like lots of elderly and widowed parents do.
Not to deliver more bad news BUT - if the daughter on SSI/SSDI has a material change in her circumstances, it needs to be reported to Social Security right away, because it will affect her benefits. Moving in with her mother (IF that were to happen) is one of those material changes, meaning DD will no longer have to pay rent (and her benefits will be adjusted down). If this is NOT disclosed to SS and DD continues to colloect at her old payment level, Social Security can come back later and demand repayment. And *if* the mother has accepted responsibility for DD, it *could* roll down to the mother/her share of the house.
As a part owner of the house, it think it is eminently reasonable for you to have a "no smoking in the house" rule (and expect them to obey it). And it's not just because of resale value. There are also known health concerns and potential fire hazards for everyone living in the home.
So sorry you have to deal with this
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Jan 13, 2016 19:49:04 GMT -5
You can't stop her from signing up (deliberately or inadvertently) to accept responsibility for DD's non-Medicaid covered expenses. You can't stop her from funneling money to her kids. If she ends up encumbering "her share" of the house (which clearly affects ALL of you, by lien or some other mechanism), then all you can do to not have her and her ilk be a stone around yours and DB's necks is to sell the house. Her portion of the sale will pay for the encumbrances, and you and DB will pocket your portions. And if she has any left that she blows - - well, not your problem. I know you said you feel some responsibility for her, but even so . . . there are limits. It's hard (and painful and ultimately fruitless) to accept responsibility for someone who won't accept responsibility for themselves. She can move in with her kids, like lots of elderly and widowed parents do.
Not to deliver more bad news BUT - if the daughter on SSI/SSDI has a material change in her circumstances, it needs to be reported to Social Security right away, because it will affect her benefits. Moving in with her mother (IF that were to happen) is one of those material changes, meaning DD will no longer have to pay rent (and her benefits will be adjusted down). If this is NOT disclosed to SS and DD continues to colloect at her old payment level, Social Security can come back later and demand repayment. And *if* the mother has accepted responsibility for DD, it *could* roll down to the mother/her share of the house.
As a part owner of the house, it think it is eminently reasonable for you to have a "no smoking in the house" rule (and expect them to obey it). And it's not just because of resale value. There are also known health concerns and potential fire hazards for everyone living in the home.
So sorry you have to deal with this My concern would be that the "encumbrances" would be greater than her share of the house. What about potential deferred maintanance and taxes? If she runs out of money, she won't be able to keep up with that either. Personally, I'd vote for selling the place, dividing the proceeds and moving on (if she and the others will agree to it).
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Jan 13, 2016 19:53:16 GMT -5
From the number and type of expenses that you list, I would bet she has burned rough most if not all of that $50K. A sudden influx of inherited cash combined with bad choices can be expensive to the recipient.
I would explore how to evict her adult children so that you are prepared and ready to act immediately after her death. Like you, I do not anticipate this ending well or easily. Good luck!
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jan 13, 2016 20:03:05 GMT -5
Sell the house but tell her she doesn't get the money until the new people move in so she needs to get herself and her kids out before closing. Offer to lend her enough for her cost of getting an apartment from her future proceeds if you will get proceeds to share. Tell her you need to sell because you need your share because you hit bad times, she understands bad times. This owning with a drug family isn't going to end well for anyone.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 13, 2016 20:33:33 GMT -5
@patstab totally off topic, but your DGS is just adorable
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 13, 2016 20:37:02 GMT -5
From the number and type of expenses that you list, I would bet she has burned rough most if not all of that $50K. A sudden influx of inherited cash combined with bad choices can be expensive to the recipient. I would explore how to evict her adult children so that you are prepared and ready to act immediately after her death. Like you, I do not anticipate this ending well or easily. Good luck! No, I've estimated the costs correctly. She traded in the car and got $8k for it. If she bought it outright, there is $10k. Trip to NYC was about $1000 (she stayed with my aunt). Patio, $2k max. Wedding was low key, it was the same place my dad's service was at (and even the open bar we had was obscenely cheap) and I'd be surprised if it cost over $3000. I don't think she's blown through more than about $16k. I really don't think she is close to being near death. She is 66, and in fairly good shape other than arthritis. I'm guessing that she will want to sell the house soon, and if she mentions it again, I'm not going to talk her out of it. I have already, only so much as I feel like she shouldn't make any changes for a year after dad's death. That will be the end of next month. Maybe look for putting it on the market next summer. She won't get enough to buy a place outright, but it would be a decent down on a condo. I have no idea what her credit is like, or if she even has that much income to support a mortgage.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 13, 2016 20:41:13 GMT -5
Sell the house but tell her she doesn't get the money until the new people move in so she needs to get herself and her kids out before closing. Offer to lend her enough for her cost of getting an apartment from her future proceeds if you will get proceeds to share. Tell her you need to sell because you need your share because you hit bad times, she understands bad times. This owning with a drug family isn't going to end well for anyone. I can't do that. The house will have to be empty at closing and she knows that. However, I could see her kids dragging their feet if their mom wasn't there. That won't happen. I seriously doubt that the addict daughter is selling, but I'm not sure she is not still using. Prescription meds (legally acquired, of course) is her drug of choice. That and cigarettes.
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mamasita99
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Post by mamasita99 on Jan 13, 2016 20:41:21 GMT -5
@patstab totally off topic, but your DGS is just adorable I was thinking the exact same thing!
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 13, 2016 20:44:12 GMT -5
You can't stop her from signing up (deliberately or inadvertently) to accept responsibility for DD's non-Medicaid covered expenses. You can't stop her from funneling money to her kids. If she ends up encumbering "her share" of the house (which clearly affects ALL of you, by lien or some other mechanism), then all you can do to not have her and her ilk be a stone around yours and DB's necks is to sell the house. Her portion of the sale will pay for the encumbrances, and you and DB will pocket your portions. And if she has any left that she blows - - well, not your problem. I know you said you feel some responsibility for her, but even so . . . there are limits. It's hard (and painful and ultimately fruitless) to accept responsibility for someone who won't accept responsibility for themselves. She can move in with her kids, like lots of elderly and widowed parents do.
Not to deliver more bad news BUT - if the daughter on SSI/SSDI has a material change in her circumstances, it needs to be reported to Social Security right away, because it will affect her benefits. Moving in with her mother (IF that were to happen) is one of those material changes, meaning DD will no longer have to pay rent (and her benefits will be adjusted down). If this is NOT disclosed to SS and DD continues to colloect at her old payment level, Social Security can come back later and demand repayment. And *if* the mother has accepted responsibility for DD, it *could* roll down to the mother/her share of the house.
As a part owner of the house, it think it is eminently reasonable for you to have a "no smoking in the house" rule (and expect them to obey it). And it's not just because of resale value. There are also known health concerns and potential fire hazards for everyone living in the home.
So sorry you have to deal with this She would be going from her brother's home to her mother's. Not much of a change in circumstance. SSDI is NOT means tested, she does not collect SSDI.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jan 13, 2016 20:44:25 GMT -5
Mich, I don't know what the dynamic is, but is it possible to have a frank discussion with her about exactly what you've posted here - that you want to continue to support her to X extent, but that you have concerns about that support being diverted?
I know that conversations of that nature rarely end well, but I figured it was worth asking. <hugs> this can't be easy for you.
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