Part ? of my ongoing saga......

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 13, 2016 19:49:04 GMT -5 CCL said:

Jan 13, 2016 19:41:30 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

You can't stop her from signing up (deliberately or inadvertently) to accept responsibility for DD's non-Medicaid covered expenses. You can't stop her from funneling money to her kids. If she ends up encumbering "her share" of the house (which clearly affects ALL of you, by lien or some other mechanism), then all you can do to not have her and her ilk be a stone around yours and DB's necks is to sell the house. Her portion of the sale will pay for the encumbrances, and you and DB will pocket your portions. And if she has any left that she blows - - well, not your problem. I know you said you feel some responsibility for her, but even so . . . there are limits. It's hard (and painful and ultimately fruitless) to accept responsibility for someone who won't accept responsibility for themselves. She can move in with her kids, like lots of elderly and widowed parents do.

Not to deliver more bad news BUT - if the daughter on SSI/SSDI has a material change in her circumstances, it needs to be reported to Social Security right away, because it will affect her benefits. Moving in with her mother (IF that were to happen) is one of those material changes, meaning DD will no longer have to pay rent (and her benefits will be adjusted down). If this is NOT disclosed to SS and DD continues to colloect at her old payment level, Social Security can come back later and demand repayment. And *if* the mother has accepted responsibility for DD, it *could* roll down to the mother/her share of the house.

As a part owner of the house, it think it is eminently reasonable for you to have a "no smoking in the house" rule (and expect them to obey it). And it's not just because of resale value. There are also known health concerns and potential fire hazards for everyone living in the home.  

So sorry you have to deal with this

My concern would be that the "encumbrances" would be greater than her share of the house.

What about potential deferred maintanance and taxes? If she runs out of money, she won't be able to keep up with that either. Personally, I'd vote for selling the place, dividing the proceeds and moving on (if she and the others will agree to it).

This is a concern.  

As as I have said, her ENTIRE living, including utilities, is about $500/mo., which she should be able to cover on her income.  My dad made sure that everything is new and functioning.  Her taxes are about $100/mo, insurance less.  The house is in pristine shape with new roof, windows, furnace, water heater, appliances, etc.  Septic has been taken care of.  Kitchen was redone 2 years ago.   Deck and railings are new.  New walk, new driveway, new bathroom.  She should be good for awhile.

[Deleted]

Jan 13, 2016 19:35:45 GMT -5 cronewitch said:

Liens are easy if they do anything related to the house like repair work the house owes the money. For example if you hire a contractor who buys roofing material for your house and doesn't pay even if you paid the contractor for it the supplier can lien your house for materials as can subcontractors.

That's a special type called a mechanic's lien. It can be filed only by someone who did work on the house. The one I got stuck with was filed by a creditor of my husband's and had nothing to do with home repair.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 13, 2016 20:44:25 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Mich, I don't know what the dynamic is, but is it possible to have a frank discussion with her about exactly what you've posted here - that you want to continue to support her to X extent, but that you have concerns about that support being diverted?

I know that conversations of that nature rarely end well, but I figured it was worth asking. <hugs>  this can't be easy for you.

I don't know.  I've thought about it, Chiver.

But I just don't know how to approach the conversation with her.  I don't see how it can go well, and I'd have to talk very carefully in order to avoid hurting feelings.  Hurting her feelings is the absolute last thing that I want to do.  

[swamp]

She can't get a mortgage in her name alone, but if she gets sued, the lien is on the house and would have to be paid from the sale proceeds 

[chiver78]

Jan 13, 2016 21:03:28 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jan 13, 2016 20:44:25 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Mich, I don't know what the dynamic is, but is it possible to have a frank discussion with her about exactly what you've posted here - that you want to continue to support her to X extent, but that you have concerns about that support being diverted?

I know that conversations of that nature rarely end well, but I figured it was worth asking. <hugs>  this can't be easy for you.

I don't know.  I've thought about it, Chiver.

But I just don't know how to approach the conversation with her.  I don't see how it can go well, and I'd have to talk very carefully in order to avoid hurting feelings.  Hurting her feelings is the absolute last thing that I want to do.  

I figured you'd already thought about that, likely before you posted the OP here. like I said, I don't know your dynamic. what I got out of your posts so far in this thread though, you have detailed all that your dad made sure was in place before he passed away. you've said that you feel a connection enough to want to continue to support your stepmom as best you can for HER best interests (not her leeches), so I feel like you might be able to broach a topic like this and live to talk about it. I can absolutely understand not wanting to hurt feelings, though.

[Deleted]

How about, "Stepmother, I was really happy to see that dad provided for you so well because you've been very good to him, but I worry that trying to take care of (needy stepsiblings) is going to drain your resources and threaten your own financial future. Have you thought about this? What can I do to help?"

In the end, though, she's an adult.  If she runs out of $$ supporting your setpsiblings, you can help her find resources for indigent seniors.

[Bonny]

Jan 13, 2016 21:29:20 GMT -5 swamp said:

She can't get a mortgage in her name alone, but if she gets sued, the lien is on the house and would have to be paid from the sale proceeds 

I'm assuming title is being held as tenants in common. Can a lienholder acquire an interest greater than the debtor's interest?

On a practical level how hard is it to do a partition sale in the State of NY?

[swamp]

Jan 14, 2016 15:00:59 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jan 13, 2016 21:29:20 GMT -5 swamp said:

She can't get a mortgage in her name alone, but if she gets sued, the lien is on the house and would have to be paid from the sale proceeds 

I'm assuming title is being held as tenants in common. Can a lienholder acquire an interest greater than the debtor's interest?

On a practical level how hard is it to do a partition sale in the State of NY?

Yes.

 

Not hard, but expensive and time consuming.

[Bonny]

Jan 14, 2016 16:00:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 14, 2016 15:00:59 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I'm assuming title is being held as tenants in common. Can a lienholder acquire an interest greater than the debtor's interest?

On a practical level how hard is it to do a partition sale in the State of NY?

Yes.

 

Not hard, but expensive and time consuming.

That's interesting. I don't think that can happen in CA. That said, as a practical matter it may be cheaper to pay the excess debt than hire counsel to close a deal.

I saw that when I negotiated a deal on behalf of the Land Trust I volunteered for. We were acquiring a 600 acre parcel owned by four partners, one of whom owed past Federal taxes and a lien had been filed in the county in which the property lie. The IRS wouldn't issue a lien release until the debt was paid. His partners paid the shortage in order to close the deal.

He was a jerk and a manipulator. When I found out that his wife shot him in the groin with the words "You're worth more to me dead than alive" I understood where she was coming from. Karma's a bitch! 

[Deleted]

I am not sure that the ownership issue is clear.  Does she have an actual ownership interest in the property or does she only have a life estate that permits her to live there until she dies?  Perhaps some part of the ownership was left to her and some to other decesandants with a life estate over the entirety of the property. If she has an ownership interest, how is the ownership held?  Tenents by the entirety or some other legal provision?  Those questions may govern her ability to give rise to a lean on the property and dictate what all of the owners can and cannot do.   Also, if she has a life estate, what are the terms and how was it granted?  Those issues can get pretty complex and significantly depend on state law.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

She has 1/4 ownership until she dies.  If the house is not sold until then, her share reverts to me and my sibs.

If the house is sold before she dies, she gets 1/4 share of the proceeds.

[Ombud]

Is it possible for the 3 of you to buy out her portion & rent back to her at ssy, 1/4 fair market rate?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 14, 2016 23:47:07 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Is it possible for the 3 of you to buy out her portion & rent back to her at ssy, 1/4 fair market rate?

No.  This option is not on the table, for reasons explained earlier.

[Value Buy]

Jan 13, 2016 20:05:09 GMT -5 @patstab said:

Actually we were to "charge" our mentally challenged daughter rent so she got a higher benefit. I

calculated her share of the rent everything but phone is acceptable, but I would just set the cash

aside for us to use toward vacations, clothes, or whatever she needed.

Did you declare your rental charge on your income tax return?

[Deleted]

Another thought on this: you should be able to address your biggest fear directly with her. Tell her NOT to sign anything when her daughter goes in for care- not the hospital, not the doctor's office. When DH was taking care of his elderly mother (also on Medicaid) and she was admitted to the hospital after a stroke, they stuck papers in front of him and asked him to sign them so they could "process her". His mother was capable of signing (still mentally lucid and capable of using a pen) and he told them to go get HER signature. He's convinced he'd have been somehow responsible for some of her expenses otherwise. They did try to send him bills after she died and he just told them to go away, which they eventually did.

So, tell her that she absolutely must not sign anything related to her daughter's care, especially hospital admissions- that he daughter must sign everything. Then let her know why- that otherwise she may be held liable for daughter's medical expenses and that creditors can put a lien on the house if they're not paid. (Can a large creditor force a sale to get the lien paid off? If the lawyers here say that's a possibility, tell her that, too.)

From what you've said, she's got enough sense to take in the facts and act to protect her own interests.

[Ombud]

Jan 13, 2016 15:13:16 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

So my brother calls me, wanting to know if we should buy the wife out of the house.  He is afraid that with wife's daugher's medical/travel expenses, she might try to put a lien against the house.  I don't want to buy the house.  If the house is no longer needed, it will be sold....period.  There is not going to be this half assed measure of having a house that we (me and my siblings own) and wife and her kids live there free.

Sorry but I side with your brother. Losing 25% of a 500k+ house is more risk than I'd take. Losing 25% of a 50k house is no biggee. If you own it, you can either rent back at a reasonable rate or move all of them on. You cannot say who lives there if she is part owner or how she takes out loans against it

[swamp]

Who said it's a $500k house? It's in upstate NY. Property values are generally lower than the rest of the state, and many other states.

I have 1.3 acres on prime waterfront property, and my place isn't worth that.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 15, 2016 11:05:45 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Jan 13, 2016 15:13:16 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

So my brother calls me, wanting to know if we should buy the wife out of the house.  He is afraid that with wife's daugher's medical/travel expenses, she might try to put a lien against the house.  I don't want to buy the house.  If the house is no longer needed, it will be sold....period.  There is not going to be this half assed measure of having a house that we (me and my siblings own) and wife and her kids live there free.

Sorry but I side with your brother. Losing 25% of a 500k+ house is more risk than I'd take. Losing 25% of a 50k house is no biggee. If you own it, you can either rent back at a reasonable rate or move all of them on. You cannot say who lives there if she is part owner or how she takes out loans against it

The house isn't close to a $500k house.  We would be lucky to get $150k.  We have no intention of living in upstate NY, and none of us want to be landlords. 

Like I said, if my dad's wife no longer wants to live in the house, it will be sold and she gets her share.  We are not buying her out and renting to her, because we would lose even more in the long run.

If you read the rest of this thread, there would be no incentive for the house to be kept up if she no longer has a stake in it.  If we buy her out and rent it back, we become landlords and none of us want to do this.   

Selling the house has to be my dad's wife decision.  Dad was told that she could live there as long as she wants.  But I cannot afford to support her 4 kids....all of who have lived under my dad's roof at one time or another over the last 10 years.  One currently lives there now, and I suspect a second will soon.  Another just moved out this past year.

Not only that, if we did have the bad idea to do what you suggest, then we could wind up needing to evict her kids if their mom dies.  I don't want to think about this headache, as NONE of them are financially responsible.  Even if their mother paid rent while she is alive (which I am sure she would do), the kids (who are 40+) would wind up being squatters.  They already have one foreclosure under their belt, none are banked and paying rent is not a mandatory activity for them.

Last thing I want is my financial future linked to them.  Right now, their mother (who is a more responsible) is a buffer.  If I lose that buffer, there is no doubt we'd be screwed.

[milee]

It stinks that your dad put you in this position. The structure of the deal - you each own 1/4 of a house but one party is allowed to live there for what is likely to be at least the next 20 years - is a set up for discord.

You really don't have much legal recourse here, and to preserve the relationship/respect your father's wishes, you probably don't have much emotional leverage in the situation either. Stepmom is probably going to smoke in the house. She's likely to continue to make financial decisions to rescue her kids at her own financial peril. Some of that financial mess will almost certainly attach itself to the house, even if it's just indirect - such as deferred maintenance or having to evict the kids eventually.

It may help to reframe how you think about it, since it's a bad situation over which you really don't have much control. If you can possibly reframe your thoughts along the lines of... After selling and any legal costs, I'd be lucky to get $30,000 out of this even if the house were to sell right now. If the situation were to drag on for 20+ years, it could be that my share will be worth nothing. It is beyond my control and I'm not going to raise my blood pressure or get embroiled in family mess for $0 - $30,000.  I will assume I will get nothing and then if - sometime in the future any money does appear, I'll consider it a windfall. Moving on...

[swamp]

Jan 15, 2016 11:58:12 GMT -5 milee said:

It stinks that your dad put you in this position. The structure of the deal - you each own 1/4 of a house but one party is allowed to live there for what is likely to be at least the next 20 years - is a set up for discord.

You really don't have much legal recourse here, and to preserve the relationship/respect your father's wishes, you probably don't have much emotional leverage in the situation either. Stepmom is probably going to smoke in the house. She's likely to continue to make financial decisions to rescue her kids at her own financial peril. Some of that financial mess will almost certainly attach itself to the house, even if it's just indirect - such as deferred maintenance or having to evict the kids eventually.

It may help to reframe how you think about it, since it's a bad situation over which you really don't have much control. If you can possibly reframe your thoughts along the lines of... After selling and any legal costs, I'd be lucky to get $30,000 out of this even if the house were to sell right now. If the situation were to drag on for 20+ years, it could be that my share will be worth nothing. It is beyond my control and I'm not going to raise my blood pressure or get embroiled in family mess for $0 - $30,000.  I will assume I will get nothing and then if - sometime in the future any money does appear, I'll consider it a windfall. Moving on...

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 15, 2016 11:58:12 GMT -5 milee said:

It may help to reframe how you think about it, since it's a bad situation over which you really don't have much control. If you can possibly reframe your thoughts along the lines of... After selling and any legal costs, I'd be lucky to get $30,000 out of this even if the house were to sell right now. If the situation were to drag on for 20+ years, it could be that my share will be worth nothing. It is beyond my control and I'm not going to raise my blood pressure or get embroiled in family mess for $0 - $30,000.  I will assume I will get nothing and then if - sometime in the future any money does appear, I'll consider it a windfall. Moving on...

Milee.....this is where I am at now.  I want to sell the house altogether, but at this point in time, it just isn't good.  My dad died less than a year ago, and for his wife to stay put right now is the right move.  With 2 daughters with medical issues, talking about selling now seems a little cruel, but once things are resolved (hopefully this summer), when she mentions selling the house, we are going to be all over this and the house is going to go on the market.

In my dad's defense, I understand what he was trying to do.  When he was finalizing his estate, he left everything other than a few, specific requests, to his wife.  I agree, I don't need or want the money.  But the house was paid for while my mom was still alive, and the down payment came from her mom.  My dad's second wife did not pay for anything pertaining to the house while she lived there.  So the concern was that if the house was left wholly to his wife, when she died it would go to her kids.  That isn't right either, why should they get this asset that was not bought by their family?

[Ombud]

Jan 15, 2016 11:28:08 GMT -5 swamp said:

Who said it's a $500k house? It's in upstate NY. Property values are generally lower than the rest of the state, and many other states.

I have 1.3 acres on prime waterfront property, and my place isn't worth that.

ummm. I estimated low

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 15, 2016 12:28:33 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Jan 15, 2016 11:28:08 GMT -5 swamp said:

Who said it's a $500k house? It's in upstate NY. Property values are generally lower than the rest of the state, and many other states.

I have 1.3 acres on prime waterfront property, and my place isn't worth that.

ummm. I estimated low

There is a whole lotta state outside of NYC.  Most of it has no where near NYC rates.

This house is 5 BR, 2 BA on half an acre on the lake.  I suspect that if someone buys the house, they will be buying only the property and raze the house.

[milee]

Jan 15, 2016 12:15:56 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jan 15, 2016 11:58:12 GMT -5 milee said:

It may help to reframe how you think about it, since it's a bad situation over which you really don't have much control. If you can possibly reframe your thoughts along the lines of... After selling and any legal costs, I'd be lucky to get $30,000 out of this even if the house were to sell right now. If the situation were to drag on for 20+ years, it could be that my share will be worth nothing. It is beyond my control and I'm not going to raise my blood pressure or get embroiled in family mess for $0 - $30,000.  I will assume I will get nothing and then if - sometime in the future any money does appear, I'll consider it a windfall. Moving on...

Milee.....this is where I am at now.  I want to sell the house altogether, but at this point in time, it just isn't good.  My dad died less than a year ago, and for his wife to stay put right now is the right move.  With 2 daughters with medical issues, talking about selling now seems a little cruel, but once things are resolved (hopefully this summer), when she mentions selling the house, we are going to be all over this and the house is going to go on the market.

In my dad's defense, I understand what he was trying to do.  When he was finalizing his estate, he left everything other than a few, specific requests, to his wife.  I agree, I don't need or want the money.  But the house was paid for while my mom was still alive, and the down payment came from her mom.  My dad's second wife did not pay for anything pertaining to the house while she lived there.  So the concern was that if the house was left wholly to his wife, when she died it would go to her kids.  That isn't right either, why should they get this asset that was not bought by their family?

Sometimes the situations people create to try to make something "fair" create more issues than the original unfair thing.  Everybody is different in their tolerance for dealing with drama, frustration and disappointment.  And everybody is in a different financial situation.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the money just wasn't there to take care of everybody and also pay back the down payment from years ago.  So a difficult and complicated situation was created.  It's up to you to decide if getting a portion of a down payment from years ago and some appreciation on the house is worth getting wrapped up in this.  There are times when letting something unfair go is the best choice from an emotional standpoint, but only you can know if you're there or if it's worth staying hooked in to the likely coming Jerry Springer show scene in order to get at most $30k and the knowledge that the outcome was fair. 

Edited to add: I'm using inflammatory language to try to see if you get a gut reaction here.  Maybe it will help clarify your feelings.  You might decide - Fuck yeah, it's totally unfair that her kids will get some money out of this and even if I don't see a dime, it raises my blood pressure 20 points and takes hours each week of my emotional energy, I'm going to damn well get what's mine!  Or you may say, yeah, it sucks and it's unfair but I'm not putting myself through the ringer for some unknown and likely small amount of money - let them be the mess they will become and I'll happily live my life over here...

[milee]

Jan 15, 2016 12:15:56 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jan 15, 2016 11:58:12 GMT -5 milee said:

It may help to reframe how you think about it, since it's a bad situation over which you really don't have much control. If you can possibly reframe your thoughts along the lines of... After selling and any legal costs, I'd be lucky to get $30,000 out of this even if the house were to sell right now. If the situation were to drag on for 20+ years, it could be that my share will be worth nothing. It is beyond my control and I'm not going to raise my blood pressure or get embroiled in family mess for $0 - $30,000.  I will assume I will get nothing and then if - sometime in the future any money does appear, I'll consider it a windfall. Moving on...

Milee.....this is where I am at now.  

Respectfully, no - you're not.  From your posts, it's still eating at you, you're still upset about it, you're still struggling to see how you can influence or control the uncontrollable.

It's understandable.  Some of this is wrapped up in your feelings about your Dad.  Maybe over time you can separate the feelings about your Dad with the unfairness of the house/inheritance situation.  For your own good, not anything to do with stepmom.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

No I'm not.  I'm trying to figure out how to get out if this house with the least amount of hassle, keeping a promise to my dad, and not having it cost me financially too much.  The house is in good shape now so it is important to sell it before the upgrades/new appliances, etc. show their wear.

While $30k may be peanuts to you, this will help shore up my retirement that has been hit.  I've not been able to contribute near what I'd like since I've been collecting disability as I've only been able to contribute to a Roth. I've lost my 403b contributions, which were considerable.  I also have to consider my siblings as well.  My sister is in good shape, but brother could use some help.

Undoubtedly, this has an emotional impact.  But while I can admit I am upset, it isn't affecting my sleep or BP.  I am more concerned as to how much if a mess this CAN become and how I can get out of it without hurting feelings.  I don't give a rats ass about her kids though.  Therein lies the problem.  

[milee]

OK, then realize that you have no legal control here and it can (and probably will) become more of a mess over which you will still have no legal control. The best shot you have of coming out of this quickly and cleanly with a little bit of cash is to convince stepmom that it's in her best interests to sell. Push too hard and it could backfire, but use any influence you have to encourage her to sell and maybe you can make that happen.  Forget about the rest - smoking, who lives there, what other spending she does, what debt/liens she incurs, etc. - because you have no control and probably very little influence there.

Hopefully you have good powers of persuasion and that she's not great with finance or long term thinking because it would be really stupid of her to exchange a free place for her and all her kids to live for 20+ years in exchange for $30k cash right now.

Sorry you're stuck in this.  The combination of family and finances stinks.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

The one advantage I have is that the house has a big yard and she wants a condo.  She is tired of the work involved with the grass in summer (since it has a septic tank and leach field, you CANNOT let it overgrow).  The back yard is nicer than most golf courses.  Snow is an issue too, and it is out of town.  The house is bigger than she needs, and I know she is tired of her kids living there.  It would not surprise me if she bought a 1 BR condo.

Convincing her to sell and get a condo should be fairly easy.  I talked her out of it earlier this year because (1) she shouldn't make major changes for a year and (2) I really don't have a huge break off from classes and have that amount of time.  When I go out there next time, I'll have to fly out and drive back to get the stuff from my dad's estate I was bequeathed.  At this point, I have to coordinate with my sibs, as they need to do likewise.  One is within driving distance, my sister is going to have to do the fly/drive too.  I should have time in Aug this year.

[gregintenn]

Would it be feasible for you to simply sign over your interest in the house and walk away? I know it wouldn't be prudent from a financial standpoint, but I'm thinking more from the sanity and emotional well being side of things.

To me, the BS your dealing with isn't worth any amount of possible future money.

Best wishes for you on this. Wow, what a mess.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 15, 2016 13:47:20 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Would it be feasible for you to simply sign over your interest in the house and walk away? I know it wouldn't be prudent from a financial standpoint, but I'm thinking more from the sanity and emotional well being side of things.

To me, the BS your dealing with isn't worth any amount of possible future money.

Best wishes for you on this. Wow, what a mess.

I explained this earlier.  $30k when I have not been able to contribute more than $6500/year to a Roth for the last couple years would help shore up my retirement.  I'm 56 and disabled, and while I am cross training to do a job I can physically do, age discrimination is alive and well in the US.

It isn't horrible, but the 403b contributions that were being made to my account by my employer stopped last year.  So right now, I can only contribute about 1/3 of what was going in previously.