weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 1, 2015 1:18:43 GMT -5
On the evening news, they were showing all the women in Jordan getting ready to come to Canada, Most of them looked like this. Somehow, I don't think they'll be working as baristas or receptionists. Frankly, I can't see them working anywhere. Welcome to Canada and enjoy our generous welfare system!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 1, 2015 12:23:19 GMT -5
I'm afraid our side's argument is about dead, weltschmerz. The Swedes are reporting nothing but good things about their refugee influx. Helpful, hard-working, law-abiding people, with relatively few exceptions.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 1, 2015 12:36:14 GMT -5
I'm afraid our side's argument is about dead, weltschmerz . The Swedes are reporting nothing but good things about their refugee influx. Helpful, hard-working, law-abiding people, with relatively few exceptions. you guys need to do better than Europe on this.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 1, 2015 12:39:49 GMT -5
i'd be in favor of making welfare a states right. you don't want it? fine. get rid of it. make it a blue state thing. THEN we will see how you feel about it.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 1, 2015 13:31:13 GMT -5
I'm afraid our side's argument is about dead, weltschmerz . The Swedes are reporting nothing but good things about their refugee influx. Helpful, hard-working, law-abiding people, with relatively few exceptions. As your article clearly shows, Virg.. It's just getting started.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 1, 2015 13:36:02 GMT -5
I have to constantly remind myself that even if I see someone abusing the system it's a small percentage and better than not having it at all . . . but I still struggle! In terms of what's happening in Europe with Muslim immigrants I don't think I, as a US citizen, understand the scale of the challenge in terms of sheer numbers, trying to assimilate them culturally, educationally and economically, the fear of demographic and social change. I think that here we are talking about bringing in 80k Syrian refugees over the next year where Germany is getting a few thousand a day. What makes you think it's a small percentage abusing the system? Nearly a third of the anti-Syrian-immigrant argument in this thread has been to submit evidence that welfare abuse is rampant, particularly in Europe and Canada. The question isn't whether we should reject the few for sake of the many, it's whether we should accept the many for sake of the few. As for welfare abuse generally, it's nigh impossible to quantify. All we have to go on is our collective observations of the individuals we know who live off of the public dime. Are they genuinely stuck? Are they making a reasonable effort to find employment? Are they temporary victims of circumstance or are they permanent loafers with endless excuses? I've already posted about my experiences working with ERCs. "Abuse" is a relative term, but if we generally take it to mean "somebody accepting social assistance who could otherwise retrain, work, and afford a decent (albeit modest) lifestyle", the percentage of abusers is by no means small per my observations.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 1, 2015 18:22:45 GMT -5
Well, you execute criminals who commit bad crimes and you limit welfare to a period of time, 6-12 months maximum and that takes care of those that abuse both systems. You can freeload for a short period of time. That should make the bleeding hearts who feel welfare isn't abused and those that feel it is, happy. Unload that 26 per cent of foreign crminals and your prison system improves dramatically. But those people never will and they'll live to regret their generosity.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 1, 2015 22:52:48 GMT -5
Well, you execute criminals who commit bad crimes and you limit welfare to a period of time, 6-12 months maximum and that takes care of those that abuse both systems. You can freeload for a short period of time. That should make the bleeding hearts who feel welfare isn't abused and those that feel it is, happy. Unload that 26 per cent of foreign crminals and your prison system improves dramatically. But those people never will and they'll live to regret their generosity. The problem with limiting social welfare or eliminating it entirely is that it typically incurs more costs than it eliminates (circa 2015). You may recall a thread from about a year ago pointing out how Minneapolis (I think?) had "solved" homelessness by simply buying apartments for the city's entire homeless population. Although not inexpensive, the measure spared the public the costs of policing, jailing, and evicting the homeless, and it significantly reduced the medical attention they required due to the hazards of life on the street. The net result was a cost savings for the city and state. Since a hardscrabble life is also a crucible for social unrest, it would be a particularly costly proposition to invite 75,000 Syrians into Canada only to cut a significant number of them off after a year or two of inactivity. We'd end up paying for our largess either way. That's one of the reasons why I'm so opposed to their coming here in the first place. But here's a bit of light in a dark place for djAdvocate et al.: If part of the vetting process was a one-year work abroad trial, where applicants were required to work 30 hours a week in unskilled labour positions for 48 weeks over a one-year period, I'd drop my opposition to their coming. We'd still get some loafers on welfare, true, but at least those who came over would have demonstrated a basic willingness (and ability) to retrain, seek employment, and work hard. Better still, the government could retain 30% of applicants' (subsidized) wages earned from the work program and remit it to them on the day they became Canadian citizens. Thus refugees would have a cash float of their own making as they acclimatized to Canada and hit the pavement looking for a job. This will never happen, of course, but it's nice to dream of a world where bureaucratic red tape and histrionic bleeding hearts couldn't prevent it from happening.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 0:33:44 GMT -5
I still support the system of welfare, but there have to be limits.
After a year on the dole, you have to find a job. If you say you can't find one, we'll find one for you, and you'd better take it, or we ship your ass back to whatever hellhole you came from. And none of this "I can't work in fast food because they sell pork" or "I can't work in a restaurant because they sell alcohol" or "I can't drive a cab because I'm not supposed to be alone with a woman" crap as excuses. Just because you adhere to a fundamentalist religion doesn't give you the right to hang around the mosque and collect welfare for 20 years on the taxpayer's dime. Either you put in, or get out.
Oh well...a girl can dream.
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 2, 2015 8:51:01 GMT -5
I still support the system of welfare, but there have to be limits.
After a year on the dole, you have to find a job. If you say you can't find one, we'll find one for you, and you'd better take it, or we ship your ass back to whatever hellhole you came from. And none of this "I can't work in fast food because they sell pork" or "I can't work in a restaurant because they sell alcohol" or "I can't drive a cab because I'm not supposed to be alone with a woman" crap as excuses. Just because you adhere to a fundamentalist religion doesn't give you the right to hang around the mosque and collect welfare for 20 years on the taxpayer's dime. Either you put in, or get out.
Oh well...a girl can dream.
Weltschmerz is coming around. She sounds more like a Republican than I do!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 2, 2015 11:39:03 GMT -5
I still support the system of welfare, but there have to be limits.
After a year on the dole, you have to find a job. If you say you can't find one, we'll find one for you, and you'd better take it, or we ship your ass back to whatever hellhole you came from. And none of this "I can't work in fast food because they sell pork" or "I can't work in a restaurant because they sell alcohol" or "I can't drive a cab because I'm not supposed to be alone with a woman" crap as excuses. Just because you adhere to a fundamentalist religion doesn't give you the right to hang around the mosque and collect welfare for 20 years on the taxpayer's dime. Either you put in, or get out.
Oh well...a girl can dream.
Weltschmerz is coming around. She sounds more like a Republican than I do! how dare you lay that on MY party!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 2, 2015 13:35:24 GMT -5
You gentlemen forget that Canadians, as a routine matter of course, don't care about Republican vs. Democrat. Although I'm not proud to say it, I'd wager that a healthy majority of Canadians couldn't even name the two major US parties, let alone identify with them. Canadians are much less partisan in our thinking. We don't think in terms of two parties, we switch parties far more readily, and candidates aren't even affiliated with parties in municipal elections. Combine that with nearly ten times the government representation per capita, a superior parliamentary system, and a federal elections process that typically lasts four weeks from start to finish, our democratic institutions are demonstrably superior to yours. That's not to say our government is superior in all regards, because it isn't, but I don't know how any reasonable individual could take a look at the US system and think "Wow, that works well. Why aren't we doing that?", particularly when it comes to your elections and party structure. Sometimes we sit around drinking our beer, eating our poutine, and just pitying you.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 13:44:28 GMT -5
I still support the system of welfare, but there have to be limits.
After a year on the dole, you have to find a job. If you say you can't find one, we'll find one for you, and you'd better take it, or we ship your ass back to whatever hellhole you came from. And none of this "I can't work in fast food because they sell pork" or "I can't work in a restaurant because they sell alcohol" or "I can't drive a cab because I'm not supposed to be alone with a woman" crap as excuses. Just because you adhere to a fundamentalist religion doesn't give you the right to hang around the mosque and collect welfare for 20 years on the taxpayer's dime. Either you put in, or get out.
Oh well...a girl can dream.
Weltschmerz is coming around. She sounds more like a Republican than I do! There's no such thing as Republicans here, but it's no sin to want to be more careful with our money. Perhaps you think it's OK to import thousands of people who will sit around on welfare for the rest of their lives, but I certainly do not. A social democracy only works when everyone pays into the system.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 2, 2015 13:51:49 GMT -5
Weltschmerz is coming around. She sounds more like a Republican than I do! There's no such thing as Republicans here, but it's no sin to want to be more careful with our money. Perhaps you think it's OK to import thousands of people who will sit around on welfare for the rest of their lives, but I certainly do not. A social democracy only works when everyone pays into the system.
Another solid Republican platform! Ty
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 13:55:47 GMT -5
There's no such thing as Republicans here, but it's no sin to want to be more careful with our money. Perhaps you think it's OK to import thousands of people who will sit around on welfare for the rest of their lives, but I certainly do not. A social democracy only works when everyone pays into the system.
Another solid Republican platform! Ty Republicans believe in social democracies? News to me. They usually start howling about communism and fascism.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 14:00:16 GMT -5
Weltschmerz is coming around. She sounds more like a Republican than I do! There's no such thing as Republicans here, but it's no sin to want to be more careful with our money. Perhaps you think it's OK to import thousands of people who will sit around on welfare for the rest of their lives, but I certainly do not. A social democracy only works when everyone pays into the system.
A republican would be the opposite of a Liberal. You've got me thinking welts. I was reading the paper yesterday and in the Empty Stocking Fund portion there was a story from a woman who came to Canada as a refugee 8 years ago. She has lived here 8 years and apparently can't work due to an unspecified injury. She has 2 children age 5 and 3, no mention of a father(s). She is asking for expensive gifts for her children, apparently she can't afford them on welfare, (the gifts that is). Make you wonder eh?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 14:04:31 GMT -5
There's no such thing as Republicans here, but it's no sin to want to be more careful with our money. Perhaps you think it's OK to import thousands of people who will sit around on welfare for the rest of their lives, but I certainly do not. A social democracy only works when everyone pays into the system.
A republican would be the opposite of a Liberal. You've got me thinking welts. I was reading the paper yesterday and in the Empty Stocking Fund portion there was a story from a woman who came to Canada as a refugee 8 years ago. She has lived here 8 years and apparently can't work due to an unspecified injury. She has 2 children age 5 and 3, no mention of a father(s). She is asking for expensive gifts for her children, apparently she can't afford them on welfare, (the gifts that is). Make you wonder eh? Yep. So many stories like that.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 2, 2015 14:04:43 GMT -5
There's no such thing as Republicans here, but it's no sin to want to be more careful with our money. Perhaps you think it's OK to import thousands of people who will sit around on welfare for the rest of their lives, but I certainly do not. A social democracy only works when everyone pays into the system.
A republican would be the opposite of a Liberal. You've got me thinking welts. I was reading the paper yesterday and in the Empty Stocking Fund portion there was a story from a woman who came to Canada as a refugee 8 years ago. She has lived here 8 years and apparently can't work due to an unspecified injury. She has 2 children age 5 and 3, no mention of a father(s). She is asking for expensive gifts for her children, apparently she can't afford them on welfare, (the gifts that is). Make you wonder eh? Sorry, but this is not an issue particular to Refugees. Here in the states they hold "back to school fundraisers" to give the same kids clothes and notebooks/pencils year after year. Then we repeat for the neediest children Christmas fund. Refugees are never part of the campaign.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 14:09:17 GMT -5
There's no such thing as Republicans here, but it's no sin to want to be more careful with our money. Perhaps you think it's OK to import thousands of people who will sit around on welfare for the rest of their lives, but I certainly do not. A social democracy only works when everyone pays into the system.
Another solid Republican platform! Ty I'm also strongly pro-choice and believe abortions should be funded with taxpayer dollars. I'm also in favor of sex-change operations being funded with taxpayer dollars. I believe climate change is caused by man and we should take steps to correct it. I believe in keeping prayer out of the public sphere. I believe in strong gun control.
You know...JUST like a Republican. Lol!
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 2, 2015 14:12:32 GMT -5
Another solid Republican platform! Ty I'm also strongly pro-choice and believe abortions should be funded with taxpayer dollars. I'm also in favor of sex-change operations being funded with taxpayer dollars. I believe climate change is caused by man and we should take steps to correct it. I believe in keeping prayer out of the public sphere. I believe in strong gun control.
You know...JUST like a Republican. Lol!
Well, the Canada that you claim is coming due to refugee resettlement will not be accepting these views very much longer, will they? I think even you can agree Republicanism is not your enemy. It is just a loyal opposition to your beliefs.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 14:27:31 GMT -5
I'm also strongly pro-choice and believe abortions should be funded with taxpayer dollars. I'm also in favor of sex-change operations being funded with taxpayer dollars. I believe climate change is caused by man and we should take steps to correct it. I believe in keeping prayer out of the public sphere. I believe in strong gun control.
You know...JUST like a Republican. Lol!
Well, the Canada that you claim is coming due to refugee resettlement will not be accepting these views very much longer, will they? I think even you can agree Republicanism is not your enemy. It is just a loyal opposition to your beliefs. Republicanism sure as hell isn't my friend. Again, there's no such thing here, and for that, I am eternally grateful.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 2, 2015 14:35:56 GMT -5
Well, the Canada that you claim is coming due to refugee resettlement will not be accepting these views very much longer, will they? I think even you can agree Republicanism is not your enemy. It is just a loyal opposition to your beliefs. Republicanism sure as hell isn't my friend. Again, there's no such thing here, and for that, I am eternally grateful.
You remind me of Pat on this board. Forget the word "Republican" Many things you dislike are Republican platform issues being discussed and arguedwith the Democrats. Both of you are slowly changing your stances, and shifting to the right. It s not the end of the world. Seriously. If the Canadian government keeps importing refugees that you claim should not be there, your life as you know it will change for the worse. Your government is obviously not listening to your needs and wants. If you want it to change, you must change your party affilliation. Granted, it does not have to be the "Republican party (yes, I know you do not have it there) but you might consider Virgil your new ally.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 2, 2015 14:52:13 GMT -5
One of us. One of us.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 2, 2015 14:59:31 GMT -5
One of us. One of us. She is slowly converting. She just does not realize it yet. It's a process.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 15:00:36 GMT -5
Republicanism sure as hell isn't my friend. Again, there's no such thing here, and for that, I am eternally grateful.
You remind me of Pat on this board. Forget the word "Republican" Many things you dislike are Republican platform issues being discussed and arguedwith the Democrats. Both of you are slowly changing your stances, and shifting to the right.It s not the end of the world. Seriously. If the Canadian government keeps importing refugees that you claim should not be there, your life as you know it will change for the worse. Your government is obviously not listening to your needs and wants. If you want it to change, you must change your party affilliation. Granted, it does not have to be the "Republican party (yes, I know you do not have it there) but you might consider Virgil your new ally. Slowly? What are you talking about? When was I ever in favour of giving welfare to people indefinitely? For years and years and years? If I ever advocated such a position, please point it out. I'll wait.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 2, 2015 15:17:49 GMT -5
It's a known fact that people become wiser as they grow older. It's also a known fact that people become more conservative as they grow older. And by "become", I don't simply mean that their opinions stay the same but drift right compared to the average. Their opinions actively shift to the right. Now, correlation doesn't mean causation, but I think we both know what's going on here.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 15:23:16 GMT -5
It's a known fact that people become wiser as they grow older. It's also a known fact that people become more conservative as they grow older. And by "become", I don't simply mean that their opinions stay the same but drift right compared to the average. Their opinions actively shift to the right. Now, correlation doesn't mean causation, but I think we both know what's going on here. I actually voted Conservative when I was younger. Big mistake. I think I've become more liberal as the years have gone by. I was always fiscally conservative.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 16:37:27 GMT -5
You gentlemen forget that Canadians, as a routine matter of course, don't care about Republican vs. Democrat. Although I'm not proud to say it, I'd wager that a healthy majority of Canadians couldn't even name the two major US parties, let alone identify with them.Canadians are much less partisan in our thinking. We don't think in terms of two parties, we switch parties far more readily, and candidates aren't even affiliated with parties in municipal elections. Combine that with nearly ten times the government representation per capita, a superior parliamentary system, and a federal elections process that typically lasts four weeks from start to finish, our democratic institutions are demonstrably superior to yours. That's not to say our government is superior in all regards, because it isn't, but I don't know how any reasonable individual could take a look at the US system and think "Wow, that works well. Why aren't we doing that?", particularly when it comes to your elections and party structure. Sometimes we sit around drinking our beer, eating our poutine, and just pitying you. Poutine is a magical thing, makes you think eh? I take exception to a bit of what you are saying, I believe that Canadians are much more in tune with what goes on in America (politically) than the reverse.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 16:39:10 GMT -5
It's a known fact that people become wiser as they grow older. It's also a known fact that people become more conservative as they grow older. And by "become", I don't simply mean that their opinions stay the same but drift right compared to the average. Their opinions actively shift to the right. Now, correlation doesn't mean causation, but I think we both know what's going on here. I actually voted Conservative when I was younger. Big mistake. I think I've become more liberal as the years have gone by. I was always fiscally conservative.
I would add that the Liberal party has changed somewhat and has evolved into a much more palatable party over the years.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 2, 2015 18:01:24 GMT -5
You gentlemen forget that Canadians, as a routine matter of course, don't care about Republican vs. Democrat. Although I'm not proud to say it, I'd wager that a healthy majority of Canadians couldn't even name the two major US parties, let alone identify with them.Canadians are much less partisan in our thinking. We don't think in terms of two parties, we switch parties far more readily, and candidates aren't even affiliated with parties in municipal elections. Combine that with nearly ten times the government representation per capita, a superior parliamentary system, and a federal elections process that typically lasts four weeks from start to finish, our democratic institutions are demonstrably superior to yours. That's not to say our government is superior in all regards, because it isn't, but I don't know how any reasonable individual could take a look at the US system and think "Wow, that works well. Why aren't we doing that?", particularly when it comes to your elections and party structure. Sometimes we sit around drinking our beer, eating our poutine, and just pitying you. Poutine is a magical thing, makes you think eh? I take exception to a bit of what you are saying, I believe that Canadians are much more in tune with what goes on in America (politically) than the reverse. Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States.
-J. Bartlett Bebner
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