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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2015 12:36:50 GMT -5
I'm trying to reconcile all the articles I've read about the fight for Muslim men to wear their turbans in the workplace, specifically as police officers, with the fact that they are all on welfare.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 25, 2015 12:47:07 GMT -5
I'm trying to reconcile all the articles I've read about the fight for Muslim men to wear their turbans in the workplace, specifically as police officers, with the fact that they are all on welfare. 100% of them are not on welfare, but a disproportionate number of them are. The ones I deal with at work are all on welfare.
"Your baby needs a vaporizer for croup." "Your child needs vaccinations." "Your father in the nursing home has the option of private laundry service" "Your mother is diabetic and need professional foot care."
"I hope my welfare will pay for that!!"
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Nov 25, 2015 12:53:30 GMT -5
Most of the people I deal with at work receive some sort of government assistance. That is the nature of many service professions, especially in the medical and legal industries. I don't take that as an indication that a "disproportionate" number of my state's citizens are on welfare.
But regardless, it sounds like the problem could be solved by tightening the welfare guidelines. This would have the added bonus of getting some of the able-bodied non-Muslims off welfare as well.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 25, 2015 13:04:00 GMT -5
Giving people welfare who qualify under our laws isn't caving in. And they all qualify because they don't work.
Welfare is one thing. You were writing about demands to change your laws and institutions to accommodate their customs and beliefs. You don't have to do that.
And, regarding welfare, isn't there a limit as to how long they can remain on it?
Nope. One of our prominent anti-poverty activists has been on it since 1972. Over 40 years.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 25, 2015 15:54:18 GMT -5
And, regarding welfare, isn't there a limit as to how long they can remain on it?
... *ahem* ... *hur hur* sorry. So sorry. Sir, may I boldly presume that you've never visited our beloved nation?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 25, 2015 17:04:51 GMT -5
... *ahem* ... *hur hur* sorry. So sorry. Sir, may I boldly presume that you've never visited our beloved nation? Actually that would be a wrong presumption. We have visited your beloved nation many times, and we always enjoy it. However we've never gone down to your welfare offices while there.
I understand it is difficult to cap benefits, especially since there is often the thorny issue of children involved. We struggle with it in the US as well (as you know) However for able bodied adults it is only sensible that there be a time limit of some sort for collecting.
You would think so, but no.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 25, 2015 17:09:01 GMT -5
... *ahem* ... *hur hur* sorry. So sorry. Sir, may I boldly presume that you've never visited our beloved nation? Actually that would be a wrong presumption. We have visited your beloved nation many times, and we always enjoy it. However we've never gone down to your welfare offices while there.
I understand it is difficult to cap benefits, especially since there is often the thorny issue of children involved. We struggle with it in the US as well (as you know) However for able bodied adults it is only sensible that there be a time limit of some sort for collecting.
You fail to understand the concept of social welfare. There are two types of people in Canada: those who will work to support themselves, and those who won't. I say "will" and "won't" because after volunteering for years with employment resource centers, I can tell you with confidence that government will bend over backwards to get people into the workforce. Physical infirmity? The government will pay for your college retraining, computer courses, Microsoft certification, etc., etc. and help you to get a physically non-demanding job in data entry, clerking, etc. Blindness, deafness, wheelchair-bound? Canada's workplace laws require all businesses to accommodate disabled workers. Government also offers incentives and benefits to sweeten the deal with employers. High cost of living? The minimum wage throughout Canada is nearly twice yours. No resume? We'll literally write one for you. I, Virgil, personally specialize in scouring people's lives for anything they can use as work experience, "lived experience", volunteerism, skills, personal assets, etc., etc. I've gotten pretty good at it. Mental disability, learning disability? People in this group can either function at a 6th grade level or they can't. If they can't, they're deemed mentally incompetent and they're afforded social workers (or social assistance to their parents, etc.) to take care of them. If they can--and most can--they're unusually industrious. Or at least they're unusually eager to work, and readily hired by organizations (universities, etc.) with supervised work programs. If you want to work in Canada, you can work in Canada. Maybe your job will be scraping crap off the john at a McDonald's, or dragging survey lines through the fly-infested backwoods of North Ontario, or risking life and limb on an off-shore oil rig, but you can find work. Social welfare was invented for two reasons: 1. to help those who work but still can't afford a modest lifestyle (the so-called "working poor"), and 2. to help the few helpless souls who genuinely qualify as unemployable. We shall call these two groups "legitimately unemployed". Admittedly, many legitimately unemployed people rely on social welfare today. Being somewhat socialist, I have no problem with my tax dollars supporting them. However, the purpose of welfare today is not to support the legitimately unemployed. The purpose of welfare today is to support that second type of people: those who can work but refuse to. This type also has subgroups: people who train for a high-level job, can't obtain one, and refuse to stoop to lower-level work; people who refuse to work because their total household income plus benefits is greater if they choose not to work than if they do choose to (the so-called "welfare cliffs"); people who suffer some kind of injury or disability and refuse to retrain for another career; people (usually unwed mothers) with more children than they can possibly care for while working; people with addiction problems who can't hold down a job; and last but certainly not least, people who have no moral qualms about not working and are perfectly content to live welfare cheque to welfare cheque. I can't tell you the proportion of welfare recipients that fall into this latter type. The government understandably has no means of distinguishing between the legitimately and illegitimately unemployed. However, I can tell you that in over ten years volunteering at ERCs, having tutored and trained at least 80 chronically unemployed clients, I observed only two (perhaps as many as four) qualified as legitimately unemployed per the above definition. The other 78 did not qualify. Welfare exists for the 78, not for the 2, which is why your comment had me laughing out loud. It would be like me commenting, "US insurance companies should double rates for the chronically obese and those who refuse to exercise. It's sensible." Of course it's sensible. But that's not the point, is it?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 11:22:19 GMT -5
These guys don't even like Trudeau Link
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 27, 2015 14:56:08 GMT -5
These guys don't even like Trudeau Link
Iris scan? How does that help? Do ISIS and other terror groups have a database of iris scans of their members?
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 27, 2015 15:00:07 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 27, 2015 16:31:16 GMT -5
These guys don't even like Trudeau Link
Iris scan? How does that help? Do ISIS and other terror groups have a database of iris scans of their members?
She's actually got a point here. Although many of these countries would seem too technologically backwards to know what an "iris scan" is, ISIS actually does keep track of its members through optical scans, and some of their databases have leaked to international intelligence agencies.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 20:20:33 GMT -5
It's not my point.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 28, 2015 7:19:27 GMT -5
Absolutely. Based on their impregnable system of iris scans, thumbprint scans, scrutiny of "fishy" life stories, and turning away unaccompanied males who claim to be heterosexual. Sleep soundly, Canada. But you know what? ISIS sleepers don't strike me as particularly intelligent or crafty, and I agree with you it's quite possible all of them will be too stupid to slip through this screening, laughable thought it may be. Let's just say I'm far more worried about 75,000 ex-"Syrians" sitting on their arses collecting welfare cheques than I am about 75,000 ex-"Syrians" strapping on suicide vests and self-detonating in the middle of the Toronto subway.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2015 9:27:56 GMT -5
A hush fell over the room at Seattle's Millionair Club Charity when Muslim volunteers arrived for Day of Dignity, a day of service organized by Islamic Relief. A few people at the homeless shelter whispered, "but we're at war with them," yet soon realized the volunteers had no other agenda other than helping. Nabil and Yazan Al-Salkini, 14 and 19, handed out water and assisted as much as they could. The Syrian teens had been living in Seattle for just over three months when Alena Avdic, a friend from their mosque, informed them of the volunteer day. link to article
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2015 9:50:35 GMT -5
Absolutely. Based on their impregnable system of iris scans, thumbprint scans, scrutiny of "fishy" life stories, and turning away unaccompanied males who claim to be heterosexual. Sleep soundly, Canada. But you know what? ISIS sleepers don't strike me as particularly intelligent or crafty, and I agree with you it's quite possible all of them will be too stupid to slip through this screening, laughable thought it may be. Let's just say I'm far more worried about 75,000 ex-"Syrians" sitting on their arses collecting welfare cheques than I am about 75,000 ex-"Syrians" strapping on suicide vests and self-detonating in the middle of the Toronto subway. Ya, that would be the racism behind your whole rant. Unfortunately I've learned there's really nothing I can do about that.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 28, 2015 11:39:48 GMT -5
A hush fell over the room at Seattle's Millionair Club Charity when Muslim volunteers arrived for Day of Dignity, a day of service organized by Islamic Relief. A few people at the homeless shelter whispered, "but we're at war with them," yet soon realized the volunteers had no other agenda other than helping. Nabil and Yazan Al-Salkini, 14 and 19, handed out water and assisted as much as they could. The Syrian teens had been living in Seattle for just over three months when Alena Avdic, a friend from their mosque, informed them of the volunteer day. link to articleand....? We have a Muslim volunteer at our nursing home. She comes in about once a month. She's been in Canada for about 15 years, and has been on welfare every one of those years. I'm with Virgil. I'm not afraid of some guy blowing me up in a suicide attack. It's the fact that so many refuse to work.
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2015 11:45:46 GMT -5
I've seen that type, too, weltschmerz. They aren't all Muslims, either. I've also seen the type who come here and work, get educated, start businesses, and strive for the betterment of the community. By nature, I'm one who'd prefer to concentrate on the positives. I do believe there are problems with the welfare systems in both our countries. Those problems need to be addressed. That's where I'd prefer to concentrate my anger and my effort.
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 28, 2015 12:04:46 GMT -5
That's all fine and good, mmhmm, but do a little research on how many in the EU who are on welfare.
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2015 12:14:09 GMT -5
That's all fine and good, mmhmm, but do a little research on how many in the EU who are on welfare. I have, welts. I know what you're saying. The problem, however, is in the welfare systems. It's not with individuals. Fix the problem. Don't shoot the recipient.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 28, 2015 12:40:50 GMT -5
That's all fine and good, mmhmm, but do a little research on how many in the EU who are on welfare. I have, welts. I know what you're saying. The problem, however, is in the welfare systems. It's not with individuals. Fix the problem. Don't shoot the recipient. We have a huge immigrant population, mmhmm. Huge. The ones from India work extremely hard. Even their kids work. The ones from China work very hard. Families will make all kinds of sacrifices to start businesses.
The ones from the Middle East....not so much. They're very good at making demands, however.
Colour me sceptical. (And it's not a pigment of my imagination. I see it all around me.)
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2015 12:54:09 GMT -5
As I said, welts, I see it too. However, what I see is a faulty system that needs to be addressed. That's where I prefer to focus my energies. If the system didn't allow it, the lay-abouts wouldn't be so likely to come calling. I also see the other side - the hard-working hopefuls looking for the freedom to live in safety and move forward with their lives. I seem them in all colours and from many countries and many different cultures.
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 28, 2015 12:58:04 GMT -5
The men hang around in mosques and the women run illegal daycares from their homes while collecting welfare. Give me ONE reason why this new influx would be any different. Just one. I hate being a cynic, and I'd like some hope to hang my hat on.
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2015 13:05:17 GMT -5
The men hang around in mosques and the women run illegal daycares from their homes while collecting welfare. Give me ONE reason why this new influx would be any different. Just one. I hate being a cynic, and I'd like some hope to hang my hat on. I do hear you. I know your province has some real problems with the welfare system. We have plenty of our own problems here. I have, however, seen any number of Muslims who are productive and real additions to our society. Because of this I can't paint them all with the same broad brush. Heck, my tailor is a Pakistani woman. Her husband is an IT professional at a local corporation. Great folks and often first in line at charity events - not to take, but to give. They've got two great kids who are both in college now. That's my experience, and that's not the only example. Have I seen the other kind? Sure I have, and they come in all colours, all nationalities, and all religions.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 28, 2015 16:13:51 GMT -5
Absolutely. Based on their impregnable system of iris scans, thumbprint scans, scrutiny of "fishy" life stories, and turning away unaccompanied males who claim to be heterosexual. Sleep soundly, Canada. But you know what? ISIS sleepers don't strike me as particularly intelligent or crafty, and I agree with you it's quite possible all of them will be too stupid to slip through this screening, laughable thought it may be. Let's just say I'm far more worried about 75,000 ex-"Syrians" sitting on their arses collecting welfare cheques than I am about 75,000 ex-"Syrians" strapping on suicide vests and self-detonating in the middle of the Toronto subway. Ya, that would be the racism behind your whole rant. Unfortunately I've learned there's really nothing I can do about that. I think what you're trying to accuse me of is xenophobia, and since the alternative is willful denial of reality, so be it.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Nov 28, 2015 18:53:01 GMT -5
I hear people complaining all the time about all of the 'arabs' running gas stations and convenience stores- objectively they are working and employing people- I know a few folks that are Syrian- not refugees, but came here before all of this crap- they were educated in different fields but came here, pooled their resources and opened a pizza restaurant- which hired American citizens. I worked there in HS as a delivery driver- and the crappy part I remember is what the employees used to say about them- the people signing their checks- referring to them as camel jockeys and worse. I am so tired of all of the prejudice, xenophobia, stereotypes- and the people that promote it- and worse use it to their advantage like Trump does. So easy to do from a distance, at the dais, on a message board- but come face to face and have a real conversation and see how they hold up- already Muslim police officers and military members have called out Trump on their service to America and his bullshit- the answer- nothing. He has no interest in that conversation- and that is why he is the #1 choice of people promoting the agenda of hate and fear.
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Post by verrip1 on Nov 28, 2015 21:40:34 GMT -5
I hear people complaining all the time about all of the 'arabs' running gas stations and convenience stores- objectively they are working and employing people- I know a few folks that are Syrian- not refugees, but came here before all of this crap- they were educated in different fields but came here, pooled their resources and opened a pizza restaurant- which hired American citizens. I worked there in HS as a delivery driver- and the crappy part I remember is what the employees used to say about them- the people signing their checks- referring to them as camel jockeys and worse. I am so tired of all of the prejudice, xenophobia, stereotypes- and the people that promote it- and worse use it to their advantage like Trump does. So easy to do from a distance, at the dais, on a message board- but come face to face and have a real conversation and see how they hold up- already Muslim police officers and military members have called out Trump on their service to America and his bullshit- the answer- nothing. He has no interest in that conversation- and that is why he is the #1 choice of people promoting the agenda of hate and fear. Some of my best friends are Canuckistanis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO NORTHERN WALL! NO NORTHERN WALL! NO NORTHERN WALL! NO NORTHERN WALL! NO NORTHERN WALL!
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 29, 2015 10:13:40 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 29, 2015 12:03:58 GMT -5
the premise is false, and so is the conclusion.
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 30, 2015 20:05:40 GMT -5
Looks like the President is going to save us from Annihilation. But it is not from the enemy of terrorism. Global warming is our real enemy.
Chances of nuclear war with terrorists is greater than our destruction from global warming, and most certainly will happen first.
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Post by fishy999 on Nov 30, 2015 20:20:35 GMT -5
Looks like the President is going to save us from Annihilation. But it is not from the enemy of terrorism. Global warming is our real enemy. Chances of nuclear war with terrorists is greater than our destruction from global warming, and most certainly will happen first. Nuclear war with terrorists? Would be a very short war- at best they get their hands on one device and take out a city- somewhere. Global warming will have far greater consequences- assuming of course it isn't a global hoax
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