Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 12, 2015 20:32:34 GMT -5
@richardintn: The modifications you're talking about (hair combing/cutting) are cultural norms. They're the "default", so to speak. You'd need a strong rationale to not cut or comb your hair, given the social consequences. Moreover, cut hair is functional (for distinguishing between male and female, for example), hygienic, it comports with broad social perceptions of beauty, and it isn't permanent. Even if a teen decides to dye his hair blue, shave it, and style it it to a mohawk, he's only stuck with the consequences of that decision for a few months. Having said all this, you correctly point out that not all people come by their hairstyles rationally. The fact that we don't see a lot of 50-year-olds with wacky, stand-out hairstyles speaks to the impermanence of peoples' desire to stand out, brand themselves, or identify with certain groups. Watching videos of the 70's, 80's, and 90's today, people laugh at the more radical notions of what people thought was stylish and/or attractive. I have no doubt that 20 years from now, people will look back at the "cool", stand-out artists and celebrities of today and laugh just as hard. Those who emulate them believe the symbols will have enduring appeal, but they don't. They're a fad. They get old fast. To me, tattoos and piercings are in the same boat. They're shortsighted. They betray a lack of due consideration for how radically our priorities, attitudes, and styles can change as we grow older. Even if they ultimately don't change, the sheer likelihood that they will makes permanent body modification a non-starter IMO. No one comes by a hairstyle "rationally". Why part it on the left instead of the right? What about center parting? Curls, waves or straight? Short, "Buzz-cut", "Bowl-cut", "Off the ear", Shoulder length, or Long? Natural color or artificially Blonde, Brunette, Red, Purple or Green? Yes... All those choices may be more temporary that a tattoo... but they are still body modification choices (except leaving hair "Natural color"... although, it could be argued, to choose to NOT modify is also a choice) I've defined "rationally" as "with due awareness of and respect for the costs and consequences". In other words: Do people fully understand what they're getting into? Do they consider the alternatives? Do they appreciate both the long-term and short-term risks? Do they have a realistic long-term view of the costs and benefits of an act with long-term implications? "I want a green mohawk." as an aesthetic preference is neither rational nor irrational. But the decision to turn that preference into reality can be based on rational and irrational expectations. For example: "My preferences won't change and I won't regret this.", "This will make me look more attractive.", "This is an act of non-conformity.", "This is an expression of my individuality.", "This will make me happy.", "There will be no grave social consequences.", "This is the best way to get my intended message across to people.", etc., etc. These may or may not be rational beliefs. When it comes to hair, things heavily tilt to the 'rational' side because hair styling is far less costly, risky, and permanent than body modification, hence any happiness and utility derived from the act are greatly magnified by comparison.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 20:48:04 GMT -5
No one comes by a hairstyle "rationally". Why part it on the left instead of the right? What about center parting? Curls, waves or straight? Short, "Buzz-cut", "Bowl-cut", "Off the ear", Shoulder length, or Long? Natural color or artificially Blonde, Brunette, Red, Purple or Green? Yes... All those choices may be more temporary that a tattoo... but they are still body modification choices (except leaving hair "Natural color"... although, it could be argued, to choose to NOT modify is also a choice) I've defined "rationally" as " with due awareness of and respect for the costs and consequences". In other words: Do people fully understand what they're getting into? Do they consider the alternatives? Do they appreciate both the long-term and short-term risks? Do they have a realistic long-term view of the costs and benefits of an act with long-term implications?"I want a green mohawk." as an aesthetic preference is neither rational nor irrational. But the decision to turn that preference into reality can be based on rational and irrational expectations. For example: "My preferences won't change and I won't regret this.", "This will make me look more attractive.", "This is an act of non-conformity.", "This is an expression of my individuality.", "This will make me happy.", "There will be no grave social consequences.", "This is the best way to get my intended message across to people.", etc., etc. These may or may not be rational beliefs. When it comes to hair, things heavily tilt to the 'rational' side because hair styling is far less costly, risky, and permanent than body modification, hence any happiness and utility derived from the act are greatly magnified by comparison. That's why I didn't limit my argument to JUST the "out there" choices though. Left or right (or center) part doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Neither does hair length (as long as choosing between "socially acceptable" ones)... so why choose short over long (for a woman, who it's socially acceptable to have either)? or why choose "off the ear" over a "buzz cut" (both of which are perfectly acceptable for men)? Most choices that people make about their bodies are completely free of (or at least not totally limited by) "rationality".
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 12, 2015 21:02:11 GMT -5
I've defined "rationally" as " with due awareness of and respect for the costs and consequences". In other words: Do people fully understand what they're getting into? Do they consider the alternatives? Do they appreciate both the long-term and short-term risks? Do they have a realistic long-term view of the costs and benefits of an act with long-term implications?"I want a green mohawk." as an aesthetic preference is neither rational nor irrational. But the decision to turn that preference into reality can be based on rational and irrational expectations. For example: "My preferences won't change and I won't regret this.", "This will make me look more attractive.", "This is an act of non-conformity.", "This is an expression of my individuality.", "This will make me happy.", "There will be no grave social consequences.", "This is the best way to get my intended message across to people.", etc., etc. These may or may not be rational beliefs. When it comes to hair, things heavily tilt to the 'rational' side because hair styling is far less costly, risky, and permanent than body modification, hence any happiness and utility derived from the act are greatly magnified by comparison. That's why I didn't limit my argument to JUST the "out there" choices though. Left or right (or center) part doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Neither does hair length (as long as choosing between "socially acceptable" ones)... so why choose short over long (for a woman, who it's socially acceptable to have either)? or why choose "off the ear" over a "buzz cut" (both of which are perfectly acceptable for men)? Most choices that people make about their bodies are completely free of (or at least not totally limited by) "rationality". The rationale is that they think it looks good or feels good, or that it will make them happy, or that it's the most socially acceptable, and that these benefits outweigh the risks. If their hairstyle isn't too crazy, they're almost certainly right. As for our quirks and aesthetic preferences, these are neither rational nor irrational (within reason). Rationality applies only to the objective. Even so, every decision we make, including the ones based on subjective preferences, can be placed somewhere on the spectrum of rational to irrational based on how much consideration we give to the costs and benefits, and how closely our expectations of costs/benefits comport with reality.
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steff
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Post by steff on Nov 12, 2015 22:11:22 GMT -5
No one comes by a hairstyle "rationally". Why part it on the left instead of the right? What about center parting? Curls, waves or straight? Short, "Buzz-cut", "Bowl-cut", "Off the ear", Shoulder length, or Long? Natural color or artificially Blonde, Brunette, Red, Purple or Green? Yes... All those choices may be more temporary that a tattoo... but they are still body modification choices (except leaving hair "Natural color"... although, it could be argued, to choose to NOT modify is also a choice) I've defined "rationally" as "with due awareness of and respect for the costs and consequences". In other words: Do people fully understand what they're getting into? Do they consider the alternatives? Do they appreciate both the long-term and short-term risks? Do they have a realistic long-term view of the costs and benefits of an act with long-term implications? "I want a green mohawk." as an aesthetic preference is neither rational nor irrational. But the decision to turn that preference into reality can be based on rational and irrational expectations. For example: "My preferences won't change and I won't regret this.", "This will make me look more attractive.", "This is an act of non-conformity.", "This is an expression of my individuality.", "This will make me happy.", "There will be no grave social consequences.", "This is the best way to get my intended message across to people.", etc., etc. These may or may not be rational beliefs. When it comes to hair, things heavily tilt to the 'rational' side because hair styling is far less costly, risky, and permanent than body modification, hence any happiness and utility derived from the act are greatly magnified by comparison. I'm 47 and I have pink hair. Ever since I started seeing the brightly colored hair dyes, I've wanted pink hair. If it had been around when I was 18, I would have done it then too. Was it spur of the moment? Yes, for the most part and it was also a passive aggressive thing. My hubby walked by me one day and said "you know, you're going a little gray there" meaning my hair. I can now guarantee that he will never tell me that again. Did I think out the consequences before my impulsive, passive aggressive pink hair move? Yes I absolutely did. I don't have a boss or job to worry about it not being appropriate. I no long have parent/teacher conferences, so no need to worry about what kind of impression I leave on a teacher. I know that no matter what, my hubby loves me and pink hair isn't going to change that. Plus he knows I'm a freak already. It wasn't all that shocking to him that I came home with pink hair. When it faded, I went bright red and now I'm back to pink. It's not a big deal to hubby & I know that I won't be the only wife at the company Xmas party with freaky colored hair. I saw several last Xmas at the party. It also didn't shock my family, my sis in law has had purple or blue hair for years. I don't care what my neighbors think, I don't care what someone at the grocery store thinks, I don't care how they judge me because I know who I am and I know what matters to me. and it's not some random person's opinion. So I have pink hair and I LOVE IT! It fits my personality, to those that know me, it's so me. I also have tattoos. All in covered places. Each one has a meaning to me. A memory, a moment, a connection I wanted to honor. I would do them all again because each one was an experience I enjoyed and wouldn't want to erase. I don't really care what other people think about my tattoos. Most people wouldn't even know I have them. I don't care what others think about my pink hair, it makes me happy. Pink hair! Don't care!
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PK Bucko
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Post by PK Bucko on Nov 12, 2015 22:27:27 GMT -5
Tattoos and piercings are no big deal. People should do what they want. I guess I'm from the live and let live crowd on that. I'm not tatted and the one piercing I had (ear) has long been closed.
I once dated a woman just because she had a tattoo in a semi-private place. This was before women were getting tattoos with any regularity. (God I'm old)
Ear gauges put me off though. IDK why. They just do.
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daisy
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Post by daisy on Nov 12, 2015 22:27:49 GMT -5
I'm 47 and I have pink hair. Ever since I started seeing the brightly colored hair dyes, I've wanted pink hair. If it had been around when I was 18, I would have done it then too. Was it spur of the moment? Yes, for the most part and it was also a passive aggressive thing. My hubby walked by me one day and said "you know, you're going a little gray there" meaning my hair. I can now guarantee that he will never tell me that again. Did I think out the consequences before my impulsive, passive aggressive pink hair move? Yes I absolutely did. I don't have a boss or job to worry about it not being appropriate. I no long have parent/teacher conferences, so no need to worry about what kind of impression I leave on a teacher. I know that no matter what, my hubby loves me and pink hair isn't going to change that. Plus he knows I'm a freak already. It wasn't all that shocking to him that I came home with pink hair. When it faded, I went bright red and now I'm back to pink. It's not a big deal to hubby & I know that I won't be the only wife at the company Xmas party with freaky colored hair. I saw several last Xmas at the party. It also didn't shock my family, my sis in law has had purple or blue hair for years. I don't care what my neighbors think, I don't care what someone at the grocery store thinks, I don't care how they judge me because I know who I am and I know what matters to me. and it's not some random person's opinion. So I have pink hair and I LOVE IT! It fits my personality, to those that know me, it's so me. I also have tattoos. All in covered places. Each one has a meaning to me. A memory, a moment, a connection I wanted to honor. I would do them all again because each one was an experience I enjoyed and wouldn't want to erase. I don't really care what other people think about my tattoos. Most people wouldn't even know I have them. I don't care what others think about my pink hair, it makes me happy. Pink hair! Don't care! I have done pink hair, blue hair and purple hair too - all in my 40's. I have also gone red (DH wants me to return to red because he loves green-eyed redheads) but I am a natural white blonde so most reds are too dark for my pale skin. I love coloring my hair and I understand what you mean about it being an expression of your personality. No one blinked when I colored my hair extreme colors because I was pretty rowdy during those years. My tattoos also have meaning and I wouldn't take back the two times I had them done. In fact, my two daughters and I have talked about each getting an infinity symbol with each other's initials...we most likely will follow thru with that at some point in the future. ROCK the pink hair!! That made me think of a funny memory - when I was done with chemo I went back to work for a while and I was bald. The wig I had itched something fierce and I had only one cap that I wore and it really didn't fit my personality - so I went bald. I was the secretary in a busy ICU so lots of people got to see my bald/fuzzy head and my friends and co-workers LOVED that was so ok with my naked skull. It was just who I was at that moment, you know? You've inspired me - maybe I will go pink again - no boss to complain!
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PK Bucko
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Post by PK Bucko on Nov 12, 2015 22:37:01 GMT -5
andi9899: You say "I do feel that they enhance my appearance and I don't care if other people concur." but is that true? For example, if you had the ability to read minds, and while walking down the street you picked up a lot of "She's pretty... but those tattoos. So white trash." or "That could have been me. I'm so glad I decided not to." or "Sorry, sweetheart, but there's no way they'd take you seriously in a business meeting looking like that.", would this not profoundly impact your self-esteem? In other words, do you truly not care about others' spot judgments, or is it simply that you're content to remain ignorant of them? Yes. I think they enhance my appearance and don't care what others think. And I'm quite enamored with myself as anyone one here who has had any regular interaction with me will tell you. My self esteem is pretty bullet proof. As far as business goes, I've never had any issues with my tattoos holding me back. To my knowledge that is. And as brown as I am, no one has ever called me white trash. The only thing white about me is some of my hair. Ha! Andi has no issues with self esteem. She's a mega hot tattoo'd babe and knows it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 22:42:06 GMT -5
That's why I didn't limit my argument to JUST the "out there" choices though. Left or right (or center) part doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Neither does hair length (as long as choosing between "socially acceptable" ones)... so why choose short over long (for a woman, who it's socially acceptable to have either)? or why choose "off the ear" over a "buzz cut" (both of which are perfectly acceptable for men)? Most choices that people make about their bodies are completely free of (or at least not totally limited by) "rationality". The rationale is that they think it looks good or feels good, or that it will make them happy, or that it's the most socially acceptable, and that these benefits outweigh the risks. If their hairstyle isn't too crazy, they're almost certainly right. As for our quirks and aesthetic preferences, these are neither rational nor irrational (within reason). Rationality applies only to the objective. Even so, every decision we make, including the ones based on subjective preferences, can be placed somewhere on the spectrum of rational to irrational based on how much consideration we give to the costs and benefits, and how closely our expectations of costs/benefits comport with reality. But "rational" excludes "emotional" in your dislike of tattoos... You can't have it both ways. Either emotional is rational... or it's not. My hair isn't purple... not because I'm worried about what society would say... but because I don't want purple hair.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2015 6:01:49 GMT -5
The rationale is that they think it looks good or feels good, or that it will make them happy, or that it's the most socially acceptable, and that these benefits outweigh the risks. If their hairstyle isn't too crazy, they're almost certainly right. As for our quirks and aesthetic preferences, these are neither rational nor irrational (within reason). Rationality applies only to the objective. Even so, every decision we make, including the ones based on subjective preferences, can be placed somewhere on the spectrum of rational to irrational based on how much consideration we give to the costs and benefits, and how closely our expectations of costs/benefits comport with reality. But "rational" excludes "emotional" in your dislike of tattoos... You can't have it both ways. Either emotional is rational... or it's not. My hair isn't purple... not because I'm worried about what society would say... but because I don't want purple hair. I don't like tattoos because they mar an individual's existing beauty. That's a subjective evaluation, hence neither rational nor irrational. My decision to not get a tattoo is rational, even though the conclusion is obvious. I don't like tattoos. Scripture forbids them. They're expensive, painful, and wouldn't be permitted at my workplace. They're more widely disliked than liked in broader society. I'm at a loss to think of any positive qualities. For me, everything falls on the same side of the scales.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 13, 2015 9:53:04 GMT -5
Yes. I think they enhance my appearance and don't care what others think. And I'm quite enamored with myself as anyone one here who has had any regular interaction with me will tell you. My self esteem is pretty bullet proof. As far as business goes, I've never had any issues with my tattoos holding me back. To my knowledge that is. And as brown as I am, no one has ever called me white trash. The only thing white about me is some of my hair. Ha! Andi has no issues with self esteem. She's a mega hot tattoo'd babe and knows it. Awe. Thanks.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2015 10:04:10 GMT -5
Andi has no issues with self esteem. She's a mega hot tattoo'd babe and knows it. Awe. Thanks. You realize this is coming from a gremlin, right?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 13, 2015 10:08:08 GMT -5
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 13, 2015 10:09:16 GMT -5
You realize this is coming from a gremlin, right? Only my favorite rock star gremlin.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 13, 2015 10:17:09 GMT -5
You only get one ride on this merry-go-round called life. Go for the brass ring (or tattoos, piercing, purple hair, etc.) as often as you can. It hurts no one.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 13, 2015 10:18:34 GMT -5
But "rational" excludes "emotional" in your dislike of tattoos... You can't have it both ways. Either emotional is rational... or it's not. My hair isn't purple... not because I'm worried about what society would say... but because I don't want purple hair. I don't like tattoos because they mar an individual's existing beauty. That's a subjective evaluation, hence neither rational nor irrational. My decision to not get a tattoo is rational, even though the conclusion is obvious. I don't like tattoos. Scripture forbids them. They're expensive, painful, and wouldn't be permitted at my workplace. They're more widely disliked than liked in broader society. I'm at a loss to think of any positive qualities. For me, everything falls on the same side of the scales. I think the tat around the Nazi tattoos is positive.
And if you got a tat on your back, or your calf, how would work know?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 13, 2015 10:20:15 GMT -5
I would love to have pink hair. But it doesn't look professional and it's not a good choice for me right now. When I retire, maybe I will dye my hair pink.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 13, 2015 11:03:58 GMT -5
... I wonder to what degree there is also a religious component for Virgil. ... ... Scripture forbids them. ... Saw that one coming.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 13, 2015 11:06:06 GMT -5
scripture also forbids wearing wool blends and eating shellfish.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 13, 2015 11:22:28 GMT -5
I don't like tattoos because they mar an individual's existing beauty. That's a subjective evaluation, hence neither rational nor irrational. My decision to not get a tattoo is rational, even though the conclusion is obvious. I don't like tattoos. Scripture forbids them. They're expensive, painful, and wouldn't be permitted at my workplace. They're more widely disliked than liked in broader society. I'm at a loss to think of any positive qualities. For me, everything falls on the same side of the scales. I think the tat around the Nazi tattoos is positive.
And if you got a tat on your back, or your calf, how would work know?
They wouldn't. Well, maybe a calf tattoo and me wearing a skirt. I was referring to the tattoos I have on my hands, forearms, and neck. Those are all visible.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 13, 2015 11:23:27 GMT -5
I think the tat around the Nazi tattoos is positive.
And if you got a tat on your back, or your calf, how would work know?
They wouldn't. Well, maybe a calf tattoo and me wearing a skirt. I was referring to the tattoos I have on my hands, forearms, and neck. Those are all visible. I agree with you on that.
Virgil says he will be fired if he gets a tat. I'm wondering how they would know if it was hidden by clothes? Do they strip search him?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2015 11:25:29 GMT -5
scripture also forbids wearing wool blends and eating shellfish. I don't do those either. It's really not hard. I suppose giving up pork was a bit of a sacrifice, but at least I can look at all those "10 facts about how cute and intelligent piggies are" posters the vegans put up on the subway guilt-free.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 13, 2015 11:25:16 GMT -5
They wouldn't. Well, maybe a calf tattoo and me wearing a skirt. I was referring to the tattoos I have on my hands, forearms, and neck. Those are all visible. I agree with you on that.
Virgil says he will be fired if he gets a tat. I'm wondering how they would know if it was hidden by clothes? Do they strip search him?
Maybe if he got a visible tattoo. I'm more wondering what kind of work he does that he would be fired for getting a tattoo.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 13, 2015 11:28:22 GMT -5
I don't know if not getting a tattoo because the big man upstairs said not to is a rational reason for not getting one....
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2015 11:33:35 GMT -5
They wouldn't. Well, maybe a calf tattoo and me wearing a skirt. I was referring to the tattoos I have on my hands, forearms, and neck. Those are all visible. I agree with you on that.
Virgil says he will be fired if he gets a tat. I'm wondering how they would know if it was hidden by clothes? Do they strip search him?
The calf wouldn't work because I sometimes wear shorts. The back might, but... why? Even if I liked tattoos, why? Getting a tattoo where nobody can see it defeats the only two reasons I might conceivably want one: to exhibit the artistry, and to visibly identify as part of a group. If I ever want a tattoo on my back, I'll just imagine I have one there and... presto... for anyone besides my wife and people at the public pool, it's as good as the real thing. Cheap too.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 13, 2015 11:36:33 GMT -5
I agree with you on that.
Virgil says he will be fired if he gets a tat. I'm wondering how they would know if it was hidden by clothes? Do they strip search him?
The calf wouldn't work because I sometimes wear shorts. The back might, but... why? Even if I liked tattoos, why? Getting a tattoo where nobody can see it defeats the only two reasons I might conceivably want one: to exhibit the artistry, and to visibly identify as part of a group. If I ever want a tattoo on my back, I'll just imagine I have one there and... presto... for anyone besides my wife and people at the public pool, it's as good as the real thing. Cheap too. I don't care if you get one or not.
You just said you would get fired if you got a tat. I'm wondering how your employer would know if it was on your back.
I can see why an employer would care about visible tats, especially if you have client contact. I don't see why it's relevant if it's not where it's covered at work.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 13, 2015 11:42:18 GMT -5
scripture also forbids wearing wool blends and eating shellfish. I don't do those either. It's really not hard. I suppose giving up pork was a bit of a sacrifice, but at least I can look at all those "10 facts about how cute and intelligent piggies are" posters the vegans put up on the subway guilt-free. Here we go again with the bacon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 20:06:59 GMT -5
But "rational" excludes "emotional" in your dislike of tattoos... You can't have it both ways. Either emotional is rational... or it's not. My hair isn't purple... not because I'm worried about what society would say... but because I don't want purple hair. I don't like tattoos because they mar an individual's existing beauty. That's a subjective evaluation, hence neither rational nor irrational. My decision to not get a tattoo is rational, even though the conclusion is obvious. I don't like tattoos. Scripture forbids them. They're expensive, painful, and wouldn't be permitted at my workplace. They're more widely disliked than liked in broader society. I'm at a loss to think of any positive qualities. For me, everything falls on the same side of the scales. That's an irrational reason to be against them, by the way. Religious belief isn't rational.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 13, 2015 22:20:54 GMT -5
scripture also forbids wearing wool blends and eating shellfish. I don't do those either. It's really not hard. I suppose giving up pork was a bit of a sacrifice, but at least I can look at all those "10 facts about how cute and intelligent piggies are" posters the vegans put up on the subway guilt-free. So, you don't cut your beard or the hair on the sides of your head, either?
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Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 13, 2015 22:30:16 GMT -5
He gave at least 5 other reasons for not wanting a tattoo and that's the one you have to obsess on?
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Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 1:37:53 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 23:35:10 GMT -5
He gave at least 5 other reasons for not wanting a tattoo and that's the one you have to obsess on? I only picked out his "scripture says it's a no-no" because he was wanting only "rational" reasons... and, as I stated in my comment: " Religious belief isn't rational." therefore it's automatically disqualified by his criteria. For HIM and HIS choice to not have one, the other reasons are somewhat rational (As long as "emotion" can be considered "rational")... > "I don't like"="emotional" > "Expensive"="rational, but unrealistic". Tattoos start anywhere from $25 and up at a shop. But if you know someone (that you trust) with a tattoo gun, you might be able to get it for free or trade favors, or otherwise work out some way that will net you a cost of ZERO. Example: Mine was a birthday present, that friends paid for. > "Painful"="depends on the person, the artist, and the body location... but could be rational, IF he has had one before and knows it for a fact... otherwise it's emotional {fear}"). > "Not permitted by workplace"="rational" (no conditions on that one. it's rational. period.). > "More disliked than liked"="rational but irrelevant". More people don't like or dislike them, one way or the other, (feel neutral on the subject) than either care or don't care COMBINED, nowadays. > "Can't think of any positive qualities"="emotional"... and singular, applying to himself and other dislikers only. Many people that have them (or like them on people) can think of many positive qualities of/for/about them At least that's how I see those other reasons.
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