Artemis Windsong
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Favorite Drink: Fresh, clean cold bottled water.
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Nov 11, 2015 15:36:57 GMT -5
Body modifications are a direct assault from the snow leopards. They plant the seed. Watch it mature into . A polite, sensible person has a pristine body.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 17:27:57 GMT -5
I got my nose pierced when I was 18. I don't remember why I wanted my nose pierced, it was unusual at that time. I let it close after a few years. Then I got it pierced again a year or so later. That one didn't seem to be in the right spot to me, so I didn't keep it long.
When I was in my late 30's, I got it done again. This time, to remind myself of a time when I was more carefree and didn't feel like I had the weight of the world on my shoulders. I didn't want to recapture my youth, just some of the good, fun parts of me that I'd lost over the years.
I still wear a ring in it 5 or 6 years later, which is longer than I had the first one. I've gotten far fewer negative comments about it this time than I did 20+ years ago. I didn't care what people thought about it back then, I care even less now. It's for me, not to make any kind of statement to anyone else or gain any kind of approval from anyone. It doesn't affect my livelihood, I have coworkers that have way more going on than the tiny jewel on my nose. And the ones I wear are indeed tiny, they're not that noticeable unless the light hits them just right and makes them sparkle.
If my choices were the nose ring or unemployment, I wouldn't wear the nose ring. That's the only thing I can think of that would make me take it out unwillingly.
I wanted a tatoo when I was younger. I never got around to getting one though. That's not to say I never will. If I come across a beautiful design that means something to me, or a meaningful idea that I'm willing to get designed, I still might get one.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 11, 2015 17:40:14 GMT -5
Funny story. My niece is a bit of a know it all. My mom and I were talking about tattoos and my niece chimed in even though no one was talking to her. I suggested when she got older she should get an M on each butt cheek and it could spell mom. She tells me in a smart ass (pun completely intended) voice "Oh yeah. Where am I gonna put the O"? I about died and my mom told me to quit messing with the kids. But she laughed too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 20:28:06 GMT -5
What are the "rational reasons" for combing your hair a certain way? That's a "modification".
What about cutting your hair a certain way? That's a modification.
"Rational reasons" aren't needed for choices a person makes for their own body. Matter of fact personal choices are more likely to be emotional or irrational... than rational.
I have one tattoo... I'd like to get at least one more. The one I have was a birthday present. It's a reminder of some awesome fun times.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 12, 2015 9:04:22 GMT -5
A lot of good material. A few thoughts: NomoreDramaQ1015: So like Pants, your contention is that tattoos are mainly a means of conforming to a group. But this begs the question: Is it reasonable to use a permanent symbol of conformity? How often does the desire to identify as part of the group last an entire lifetime? chiver78: The purpose of the discussion isn't to change my mind. It's a debate, pro vs. con: Is body modification rational? By "rational", I'm mainly considering: Is the reward worth the cost, and do people discern the full cost? Is the decision to modify well thought-out or impulsive? Do people who modify give due consideration to less drastic alternatives (i.e. do they have sound reasons for choosing body modification specifically)? How often do people regret the decision? To what degree is body modification driven by vanity, conformity, rebellion, spontenaity? andi9899: You say "I do feel that they enhance my appearance and I don't care if other people concur." but is that true? For example, if you had the ability to read minds, and while walking down the street you picked up a lot of "She's pretty... but those tattoos. So white trash." or "That could have been me. I'm so glad I decided not to." or "Sorry, sweetheart, but there's no way they'd take you seriously in a business meeting looking like that.", would this not profoundly impact your self-esteem? In other words, do you truly not care about others' spot judgments, or is it simply that you're content to remain ignorant of them? cael: It's interesting that you bring up "idiotic decisions like face tattoos". That's another way of looking at the core issue of rationality. At what point does body modification become an idiotic decision? If an individual fully understands the consequences of what they're doing, and thus makes the decision to modify rationally, can it still be idiotic? At what point can we conclude that modification is so detrimental that the individual can't possibly have a rational perception of the total benefits versus the total costs? billisonboard: "My thinking on body modification is that unless it impacts function, why not." 'Why not?' without 'Why?" is the quintessence of irrationality, is it not? And in this case there are plenty of reasons why not. It's expensive, it's painful, there are social and medical risks. It's permanent, and there's always a risk of regret. An operand question for you: If you woke up tomorrow and your various tattoos and piercings were magically gone, would you go through the expense and inconvenience to replace any of them? swamp: In terms of infection, I'm thinking more of piercings. I lived for two years with a roommate (a friend) who had a pierced tongue. He put on a brave face but I swear his tongue was infected more often than it wasn't. I just felt sorry for the guy. lund: I'm the same way. To me, it seems as though anybody who gets a tattoo at 20 figures they'll die before 40. Skin stretches, mottles, wrinkles. The inks fade and crack. Skin is not a forgiving medium. Artemis Windsong: Snow leopard tattoos have been used as the insignia of paramilitary death squads in at least 20 countries, mostly in Asia. The uncia are so associated with death and slaughter in the Third World that even their image evokes fear. Sad, but completely true. @richardintn: The modifications you're talking about (hair combing/cutting) are cultural norms. They're the "default", so to speak. You'd need a strong rationale to not cut or comb your hair, given the social consequences. Moreover, cut hair is functional (for distinguishing between male and female, for example), hygienic, it comports with broad social perceptions of beauty, and it isn't permanent. Even if a teen decides to dye his hair blue, shave it, and style it it to a mohawk, he's only stuck with the consequences of that decision for a few months. Having said all this, you correctly point out that not all people come by their hairstyles rationally. The fact that we don't see a lot of 50-year-olds with wacky, stand-out hairstyles speaks to the impermanence of peoples' desire to stand out, brand themselves, or identify with certain groups. Watching videos of the 70's, 80's, and 90's today, people laugh at the more radical notions of what people thought was stylish and/or attractive. I have no doubt that 20 years from now, people will look back at the "cool", stand-out artists and celebrities of today and laugh just as hard. Those who emulate them believe the symbols will have enduring appeal, but they don't. They're a fad. They get old fast. To me, tattoos and piercings are in the same boat. They're shortsighted. They betray a lack of due consideration for how radically our priorities, attitudes, and styles can change as we grow older. Even if they ultimately don't change, the sheer likelihood that they will makes permanent body modification a non-starter IMO.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2015 9:12:04 GMT -5
In regards to piercings it's the same as tattoos, you need to go to a reputable piercing parlor. You also have to follow the post care instructions to prevent infection. If your friend's tounge was that bad my guess would be either he went to a shady parlor or didn't bother to follow directions after he recieved the piercing.
You keep wanting a rational answer Virgil and the problem is human beings are NOT rational. The desire to belong and be accepted is deeply seated in the most primitive parts of our brain. You can make up a bunch of reasons as to why you did what you did, but their just that. . made up stories.
It's similar to the discussion over on YM about art. You like what you like, it's all subjective. It's the same with body modification, either you want to do it or you don't. Either you like it or you don't.
If I like it I am not going to be able to give you any answer you will deem acceptable b/c you clearly don't like it. In return you're not going to be able to convince me otherwise b/c I do like it.
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cael
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Post by cael on Nov 12, 2015 9:20:29 GMT -5
See I don't see any possible outcome where I would consider my one small, tasteful, easily-hidden tattoo irrational or detrimental. I haven't thought of any future in which my personality and ideals change so much that I regret it. People change sure, but seriously - I hemmed and hawed on this for 10 years before doing it, and I was 30 when I got it, not 18. I'm pretty set with it. People's opinions will differ on that, sure, and people's level of what is appropriate to them is all different, but seriously. I can respect that not everyone likes tattoos - that's cool, you don't have to like them and you don't have to get one.
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cael
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Post by cael on Nov 12, 2015 9:28:17 GMT -5
Funny story about my tattoo - for how hippy and liberal my mother is, for some reason she's super against tattoos. She fake sighed and carried on when I got mine, and I told her welp, too bad that it isn't your decision. Last year I was helping my parents get ready for their annual church choir party, and one of their older male friends (who I've also known most of my life) saw it and said "Cael! I love that tattoo, I think it's very tasteful!" My dad (who also likes it) and I told my mother and laughed and laughed. Many older adults in my life have had that reaction to it. It isn't like I got Fox Mulder's face tattooed on my forearm (although... would I? )
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 12, 2015 9:32:25 GMT -5
We all have our biases whether we admit them or not. I don't mind a smallish tasteful tattoo but full sleeves? No. Ear piercings are fine on women - not on men. Gauges or other body piercings - no way in hell. Nose piercings look like boogers or zits. It's no different than preferring tall men or dark haired men. We all have different opinions of what we find attractive. As I see it, body art/modification doesn't affect anyone else other than the person doing it.
I think the problem with these pre-conceived notions of what we find attractive is that we may very well be missing out on getting to know a really awesome person just because their outside packaging doesn't register high on our attractiveness meter. I know I'm guilty of that but I think I'm getting less up-tight when it comes to outward appearances. It's probably because I'm getting older and realizing what is inside is way more important.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2015 9:35:59 GMT -5
I don't like ear gauges. I knew someone in HS that had them so big that I could have put my hand thru it. Made me want to looking at it. He wasn't a bad guy at all and I would consider us to have been friends but geez louise his gauges distracted me! I have no clue why I have such a viseral reaction to ear gauges, I just do. With those you need to be mindful that after a certain point your ears aren't going to snap back, you'll need surgery so you don't look like dumbo. I had a friend who started the process and then decided he didn't want a gaping hole in his ear so he let it close.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 12, 2015 9:38:35 GMT -5
See I don't see any possible outcome where I would consider my one small, tasteful, easily-hidden tattoo irrational or detrimental. I haven't thought of any future in which my personality and ideals change so much that I regret it. People change sure, but seriously - I hemmed and hawed on this for 10 years before doing it, and I was 30 when I got it, not 18. I'm pretty set with it. People's opinions will differ on that, sure, and people's level of what is appropriate to them is all different, but seriously. I can respect that not everyone likes tattoos - that's cool, you don't have to like them and you don't have to get one.
I've wanted a tattoo since I was in my early 20's. I had no idea what I would get, so I never got one.
I got mine when I was 39, so it's not like I was a fickle kid. My love of water has never changed, and my love for my children will be eternal. I will also always be a Pisces. And unless I have some traumatic experience with a dolphin, I'm pretty sure I will continue to think dolphins are cool animals.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 12, 2015 9:55:39 GMT -5
A lot of good material. A few thoughts: ... billisonboard: "My thinking on body modification is that unless it impacts function, why not." 'Why not?' without 'Why?" is the quintessence of irrationality, is it not? And in this case there are plenty of reasons why not. It's expensive, it's painful, there are social and medical risks. It's permanent, and there's always a risk of regret. An operand question for you: If you woke up tomorrow and your various tattoos and piercings were magically gone, would you go through the expense and inconvenience to replace any of them? ... Expense: I get more pleasure from the tats and piercings than the expenditure of effort to earn the money I spent too get them. Pain: I don't see pain as a bad thing to avoid at all costs. Social Risk: Yes, there is that. That can be both positive and negative. I believe that those who have judged me negatively are fewer than those who have judged me positively by my asserting myself as a unique individual. Medical Risk: I have read about people dying slipping on something as they get out of bed. I have read about people dying when something fell on them as they were sleeping in their bed. So you can die staying in bed and getting out of bed. Permanent: If one removes all jewelry from piercings, they are hardly noticeable. I located tattoos so they can be covered if desired. But yes they are permanent. Everything I have done in my life is permanent on some level. Risk of Regret: Anything worth doing carries the risk of regret. Fear of regret certainly isn't going to rule my life. Operand Question: No and Yes. The turtle tattoo was done in an un-recaptural moment. I would not have it redone. I do not see myself having the second hole punched in my ear. I would not rush to get my first hole redone but know it would fester in my soul until it happened. My wrist tattoo would be a priority to have it redone. And the nipple ring? No doubt!
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Nov 12, 2015 9:58:37 GMT -5
I'll probably never personally get a tattoo (I haven't yet thought of anything I would commit to permanently), but I have seen some really beautiful body art on other people. The ones I understand the most are small, tasteful designs that honor someone of personal significance, often unfortunately deceased.
The coolest one I've seen recently was a woman I met in the local mother's club. She has five children (three bio, two step), and two of the five have autism. (She's pretty much a rockstar in every way.) she had lots of tattoos, probably some piercings, and was rocking a truly astonishing shade of red hair. On one of her shoulders/upper arms, she has a grouping of five cherubic children in various spacesuits, rocket ships, etc. It was adorable, well-done, and a perfect tribute to her family that completely jived with her quirky personality.
I haven't seen any in person for obvious reasons, but I do remember seeing some pictures of breast cancer survivor tattoos on the internet some number of years ago. There was an artist lending free or discounted services to women who had to undergo mastectomies and didn't want reconstructive surgeries. Instead they had gotten beautiful designs tattooed on their chests over the scars.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2015 10:00:31 GMT -5
I learned on Botched that they can now do 3-D nipple tatoos for women who lost them after surgery. They showed the results and holy cow it was amazing! There is no way you'd ever know it was a tattoo unless you got up close and personal.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 12, 2015 10:02:42 GMT -5
I don't like ear gauges. I knew someone in HS that had them so big that I could have put my hand thru it. Made me want to looking at it. He wasn't a bad guy at all and I would consider us to have been friends but geez louise his gauges distracted me! I have no clue why I have such a viseral reaction to ear gauges, I just do.
With those you need to be mindful that after a certain point your ears aren't going to snap back, you'll need surgery so you don't look like dumbo. I had a friend who started the process and then decided he didn't want a gaping hole in his ear so he let it close. Because you just do. Same reason I have that reaction to nose piercings. I don't think it's something you can help. You can tell yourself not to have that reaction, but you are still going to. It's not a bad thing - it's just you.
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Nov 12, 2015 10:03:38 GMT -5
I learned on Botched that they can now do 3-D nipple tatoos for women who lost them after surgery. They showed the results and holy cow it was amazing! There is no way you'd ever know it was a tattoo unless you got up close and personal. I've never seen a 3D tattoo in person, but holy cow I've seen some impressive designs online. If I did ever get a tattoo, I might have to go for a 3D one! (Wonder how many artists are capable, and how much they cost compared to conventional....)
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 12, 2015 10:05:16 GMT -5
I learned on Botched that they can now do 3-D nipple tatoos for women who lost them after surgery. They showed the results and holy cow it was amazing! There is no way you'd ever know it was a tattoo unless you got up close and personal. I also saw a show on women who covered their mastectomy scars with tats. They were quite beautiful. It made the women feel better about themselves and I can't see one thing wrong with that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2015 10:05:58 GMT -5
I'd imagine they are pretty expense. I believe the show covered the tattoos for the patient.
It also didn't sound like there were a lot of 3-D artists out there. The one he used works with doctors to offer his services after reconstructive surgery.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 12, 2015 10:07:11 GMT -5
I learned on Botched that they can now do 3-D nipple tatoos for women who lost them after surgery. They showed the results and holy cow it was amazing! There is no way you'd ever know it was a tattoo unless you got up close and personal. I've seen some of these, and some body art done on breast cancer survivors who've had double mastectomies. beautiful work, and therapeutic to the women as well. one of the coolest tats I've heard about, but not seen for myself, was done by the guy that my sister and her circle go to. he does amazing work with floral designs. he took an appointment with an elderly woman a number of years ago, she wanted a small flower on her forearm, but didn't really have a design in mind - he was free to draw as he wished. her only request was that it not cover, but frame the tiny digits that had been there since the Nazis tattooed her as a kid. Ben said that was the most difficult tattoo he'd ever done, because he could barely see through his tears to work.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 12, 2015 11:03:09 GMT -5
I learned on Botched that they can now do 3-D nipple tatoos for women who lost them after surgery. They showed the results and holy cow it was amazing! There is no way you'd ever know it was a tattoo unless you got up close and personal. I've seen some of these, and some body art done on breast cancer survivors who've had double mastectomies. beautiful work, and therapeutic to the women as well. one of the coolest tats I've heard about, but not seen for myself, was done by the guy that my sister and her circle go to. he does amazing work with floral designs. he took an appointment with an elderly woman a number of years ago, she wanted a small flower on her forearm, but didn't really have a design in mind - he was free to draw as he wished. her only request was that it not cover, but frame the tiny digits that had been there since the Nazis tattooed her as a kid. Ben said that was the most difficult tattoo he'd ever done, because he could barely see through his tears to work. Wonderful idea. Take something ugly and make it beautiful. I can see it as a giant "f you" to the Nazis.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 12, 2015 11:24:27 GMT -5
It seems I have an unusually negative view of body modification, then. It's like graffiti on a fence to me. Even if the artist is talented and the motif is tasteful, I still prefer the pristine beauty of the wood.
I certainly don't see modification as a testament to uniqueness, and I'm not sure why any reasonable person would. There must be a billion tattoos worldwide, and all but a handful draw from a pool of (generously speaking) 20,000 elements and motifs. The subtleties of the artistry are more an expression of the artist than the person being used as a canvas. And while some people do take the time to mash elements together into larger and more elaborate works that are ostensibly "unique", it's a trivial and vain kind of uniqueness. A Ford is still a Ford even if it does have a unique combination of fuzzy dice on the mirror, a Calvin pissing sticker, and vanity plates.
I admit I was expecting more "Because I wanted it.", "Because I was drunk.", "Because it was cool." explanations, but it seems as though most people here didn't just do it on a whim. If we're defining "rational" as "having a reasonable understanding of and respect for the consequences, both short- and long-term", then most people seem to have made the decision rationally. We fundamentally disagree on the aesthetics and on the magnitude of the costs, but c'est la vie.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 12, 2015 11:30:26 GMT -5
I learned on Botched that they can now do 3-D nipple tatoos for women who lost them after surgery. They showed the results and holy cow it was amazing! There is no way you'd ever know it was a tattoo unless you got up close and personal. I also saw a show on women who covered their mastectomy scars with tats. They were quite beautiful. It made the women feel better about themselves and I can't see one thing wrong with that. Tattoos for cosmetically restoring the natural beauty of the body seem like a sensible use of the technology to me. I wouldn't normally refer to that as body "modification", however. It's restoration. The same thing with reconstructive surgery, skin grafts, prosthetic limbs, etc.
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wyouser
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Post by wyouser on Nov 12, 2015 12:00:16 GMT -5
I'm reading this an I can't get the little guy "Tattoo" out of my head (From the Movie The Man With The Golden Gun) and, no, I don't want "Tattoo" affixed to an ankle. Tattoos involve needles. I have a phobia (big time) about needles. Thus, I have never had nor will there ever be a tattoo on this body. Hell, I won't even go get a flu shot!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 12, 2015 12:26:41 GMT -5
It seems I have an unusually negative view of body modification, then. It's like graffiti on a fence to me. Even if the artist is talented and the motif is tasteful, I still prefer the pristine beauty of the wood. ... In my mind, fence as "pristine" is absurd. Fence is a modification of both the universe in general and the materials with which it is built in particular.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 12, 2015 12:35:49 GMT -5
andi9899: You say "I do feel that they enhance my appearance and I don't care if other people concur." but is that true? For example, if you had the ability to read minds, and while walking down the street you picked up a lot of "She's pretty... but those tattoos. So white trash." or "That could have been me. I'm so glad I decided not to." or "Sorry, sweetheart, but there's no way they'd take you seriously in a business meeting looking like that.", would this not profoundly impact your self-esteem? In other words, do you truly not care about others' spot judgments, or is it simply that you're content to remain ignorant of them? Yes. I think they enhance my appearance and don't care what others think. And I'm quite enamored with myself as anyone one here who has had any regular interaction with me will tell you. My self esteem is pretty bullet proof. As far as business goes, I've never had any issues with my tattoos holding me back. To my knowledge that is. And as brown as I am, no one has ever called me white trash. The only thing white about me is some of my hair. Ha!
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 12, 2015 12:38:27 GMT -5
I don't like ear gauges. I knew someone in HS that had them so big that I could have put my hand thru it. Made me want to looking at it. He wasn't a bad guy at all and I would consider us to have been friends but geez louise his gauges distracted me! I have no clue why I have such a viseral reaction to ear gauges, I just do. With those you need to be mindful that after a certain point your ears aren't going to snap back, you'll need surgery so you don't look like dumbo. I had a friend who started the process and then decided he didn't want a gaping hole in his ear so he let it close. I'm with you on this topic. I can't do the whole gauges thing either. It's not my deal. I don't judge anyone who has them, but it's not something I would do.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 12, 2015 12:40:58 GMT -5
I learned on Botched that they can now do 3-D nipple tatoos for women who lost them after surgery. They showed the results and holy cow it was amazing! There is no way you'd ever know it was a tattoo unless you got up close and personal. I saw that episode too! I thought it was very interesting.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Nov 12, 2015 13:01:09 GMT -5
It seems I have an unusually negative view of body modification, then. It's like graffiti on a fence to me. Even if the artist is talented and the motif is tasteful, I still prefer the pristine beauty of the wood. I certainly don't see modification as a testament to uniqueness, and I'm not sure why any reasonable person would. There must be a billion tattoos worldwide, and all but a handful draw from a pool of (generously speaking) 20,000 elements and motifs. The subtleties of the artistry are more an expression of the artist than the person being used as a canvas. And while some people do take the time to mash elements together into larger and more elaborate works that are ostensibly "unique", it's a trivial and vain kind of uniqueness. A Ford is still a Ford even if it does have a unique combination of fuzzy dice on the mirror, a Calvin pissing sticker, and vanity plates.I admit I was expecting more "Because I wanted it.", "Because I was drunk.", "Because it was cool." explanations, but it seems as though most people here didn't just do it on a whim. If we're defining "rational" as "having a reasonable understanding of and respect for the consequences, both short- and long-term", then most people seem to have made the decision rationally. We fundamentally disagree on the aesthetics and on the magnitude of the costs, but c'est la vie. Maybe, but it's my Ford to do with as I see fit. Maybe the guy down the street has the same Calvin pissing on a Chevy bumper sticker, but his Ford is not my Ford and his sticker is not my sticker. Maybe we'll bond over our shared love of pissing on things we don't like.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 12, 2015 13:03:48 GMT -5
It seems I have an unusually negative view of body modification, then. It's like graffiti on a fence to me. Even if the artist is talented and the motif is tasteful, I still prefer the pristine beauty of the wood. ... In my mind, fence as "pristine" is absurd. Fence is a modification of both the universe in general and the materials with which it is built in particular. I'm not sure what's so pristine about my body. I have scars, stretch marks, and age spots.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 12, 2015 13:09:18 GMT -5
In my mind, fence as "pristine" is absurd. Fence is a modification of both the universe in general and the materials with which it is built in particular. I'm not sure what's so pristine about my body. I have scars, stretch marks, and age spots. And for me that first modification came at an age I didn't really have a choice.
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