Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 9:17:03 GMT -5
Is there any rational basis for it?
Tattoos, for instance. Is there any rational basis to get a tattoo?
Immediately we have the associated expense, pain, medical risk, artistic risk (search for "bad tattoos" if you want to understand the magnitude of the risk), and the fact that tattoos are--I'm sorry--butt ugly, especially as they age. The inks are dull. The images are derivative. In my view, tattoos only ever detract from an individual's beauty; they never enhance it.
This is the baseline. Now add the fact that, unless you go through the equally painful and expensive process of getting them removed (hopefully without leaving blotchy, discoloured skin behind), they stay with you until you die. Contemplate that. You have to want to send a message so desperately, or love a piece of art so much, that you're willing to have it etched into your body until the day you die. How many of you reading this have a piece of eye-catching clothing or jewelry you love so much that you'd elect to wear it every day of your life until you die, in every venue, every possible situation? How many of you own a piece of artwork you bought for its visual appeal that you've never grown tired of?
Is that picture of a lion, or that Chinese character, or that butt ugly insect (I'm talking to you, otherwise attractive woman on the Toronto subway), so intrinsic to your identity that you knew you'd never regret etching it onto your body? Or could you just not see past the novelty of the act? Are you perhaps just a soul so desperate to stand out of the crowd in some way that marking yourself up like a billboard seemed like a good idea? Were you ever struck by the irony that your act of "unique" self-expression is the very same act undertaken by hundreds of millions of other people?
Then we move on to piercings. Pierced ears for women are a cultural norm, hence I can understand the pressure to conform there. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. We have people with gaping, quarter-sized holes in the lobes of their ears. Bars through noses. Bars through eyebrows that look like medical stitches. Little gems in pierced noses that look like blackheads. Pierced lips and tongues that interfere with eating and cause frequent infection. All of which look so ugly that an alien race observing Earth would probably mistake them as a form of punishment. Is there any rational basis for jamming metal into one's body, or is it just another "because I can"? Because I want to be different. Because I want to rebel. Because having gaping holes in my ears and metal crap sticking out of me as I stave off infection is who I am.
Does anyone here have tattoos or piercings? Why did you get them? Did you consider it a rational decision at the time? Do you still consider it a rational decision now? Do you regret the decision? Do you consider your tattoos or piercings part of your style and identity? Do you like them specifically because other people don't like them?
I'm going to be critical, hence don't answer if you don't want to face criticism, but I am genuinely trying to understand what mental process is behind body modification. Is it purely an irrational act, or is there something more to it?
Disclaimer: It goes without saying that piercings related to sex and genitalia are not on topic here, and I will delete content in those arcs. Respect the PG-13 rules.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 11, 2015 9:19:33 GMT -5
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Nov 11, 2015 9:27:51 GMT -5
I am pulling a seat right next to yours
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 11, 2015 9:37:56 GMT -5
I suppose I ought to actually answer the questions in the OP. maybe that will spark some discussion. I have pierced ears, a single piercing in each. I typically wear a pair of large silver hoops daily. the only other jewelry I routinely wear is a medical alert bracelet, and I have a handful of designs to choose from. as far as ink, I have a single tattoo on the top of my left foot. it is a tracing of the signature of my late Nana, from the last card she gave before passing away over a decade ago. I'm incredibly proud of myself for being able to sit through the pain (foot tats are NOT pleasant to endure....lots of nerve endings! ) and now I have a reminder of the woman that helped to raise my sis and me. I smile every time I catch a glimpse of the ink, and I do not at all regret having it done.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 9:52:54 GMT -5
I suppose I ought to actually answer the questions in the OP. maybe that will spark some discussion. I have pierced ears, a single piercing in each. I typically wear a pair of large silver hoops daily. the only other jewelry I routinely wear is a medical alert bracelet, and I have a handful of designs to choose from. as far as ink, I have a single tattoo on the top of my left foot. it is a tracing of the signature of my late Nana, from the last card she gave before passing away over a decade ago. I'm incredibly proud of myself for being able to sit through the pain (foot tats are NOT pleasant to endure....lots of nerve endings! ) and now I have a reminder of the woman that helped to raise my sis and me. I smile every time I catch a glimpse of the ink, and I do not at all regret having it done. OK. So a symbol that evokes an emotional response. ...on your foot. I'll put that in the "neither here nor there" category, rationality-wise. Most people have emotional investments in at least a few objects, and a low-key tattoo doesn't strike me as all that different. Are emotional keepsakes rational? Yes. No. Sort of. Was there a specific reason you got a tattoo rather than, say, putting up a photo of your Nana in a prominent place at work/home, or keeping her signature in a conspicuous location in your pocketbook where you'd see it often? What made you decide that a tattoo on your foot was the memento you wanted?
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Nov 11, 2015 10:05:58 GMT -5
Meh. I have seven tattoos. No significance, I just wanted them. Hubs has five. We'll probably get more. Or not. Hubs used to have his nipples pierced and he had snake bites. Took them out when he hit 30 since he had them for a while and he was done with them. I pierced my ears a month before my wedding because my stepmom gave me pearl earrings to match the pearl necklace I was going to wear (given to me by mom grandmom before I graduated college). I let my holes close in teens and when I recieved the earrings I decided to repierce my ears.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Nov 11, 2015 10:06:26 GMT -5
You want really irrational? I had friend that got a UV-ink tattoo. You can only see it under UV light, so unless you are a club kid (which they were not) or carry around a black light, you would never see it. I think it was around $300-400 to have done.
I contemplated a tattoo in high school (don't we all?) but never pulled the trigger because even then I couldn't think of anything I liked THAT much. And was worried about placement in regards to future employment (what can I say I was a wild child).
Tattoos don't really bother me on others. I don't tend to think they enhance the aesthetic, but they don't always detract either. I am much more conservative when it comes to my own personal appearance so I really can't see ever getting one.
Those that spend big money on quality tattoos seem to be very invested in the emotional and personal story component. They really do have meaning for those getting them. While not to my taste, if they want to get them, I don't really care. I see people engaging in far more irrational behaviors all the time.
I have pierced ears (it was done to me when I was like 3). I can't say whether or not I would have had them done as a teen if they weren't already pierced. I was not big on following the flock, so quite possibly not. It is a very rare occasion that I wear earnings - maybe once every few years.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Nov 11, 2015 10:10:37 GMT -5
Is there any rational basis for it? No. Unless you want to make your career as a tattoo artist or body mod technician, then it is rational to assume that your business will be more successful if you have tattoos and body mods versus not. Of course you have to believe that you will have customer who make the irrational decision to get tattoos and body mods.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Nov 11, 2015 10:10:43 GMT -5
A DNR Tattoo is rational!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 11, 2015 10:13:26 GMT -5
I got my ears pierced when I was 5. Because I wanted to wear pretty earrings like my mom and big sister. I got a second hole when I was about 13. I've let that close up.
I have one tat. It's on my left upper back/shoulder area. It's always covered at work.
Its an image based on the Pisces symbol made with dolphins instead of fish with my kids names written in the dolphins. I'm pisces. I love water. I love being in water. I think dolphins are pretty cool. I love my kids. It's purple and blue, which are two of favorite colors.
I haven't found any other tat I want.
My husband wants me to get the Star Trek emblem as a tramp stamp. Because he loves Star Trek and he's too much of a pansy to get a tat.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Nov 11, 2015 10:22:41 GMT -5
Anthropologically, it's as rational as anything else. In-group/out-group identification, depending on the modification. Similarly, the choice NOT to have tattoos or piercings identifies you as part of a group as well.
Human beings have modified their bodies for pretty much as long as there have been human beings. To decide that this is irrational because the current types of body modification are not to your personal liking is not an inherently rational position. It's just the one you happen to like.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 11, 2015 10:24:28 GMT -5
Considering body modification has included such things as foot binding, corsets, and female genital mutilation, I think tats are preferable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 10:34:02 GMT -5
As long as the modification is by choice I don't really care what people do. There are a lot of modifications I don't get, like plastic surgery to make you look like Joan Rivers sister, those big ear holes and whole sleeves of tattoos. But not my problem.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 10:34:40 GMT -5
Anthropologically, it's as rational as anything else. In-group/out-group identification, depending on the modification. Similarly, the choice NOT to have tattoos or piercings identifies you as part of a group as well. Human beings have modified their bodies for pretty much as long as there have been human beings. To decide that this is irrational because the current types of body modification are not to your personal liking is not an inherently rational position. It's just the one you happen to like. "Belonging to part of a group" is a rational basis for the modification, but what group(s) are you choosing to belong to? Gang tattoos I understand. But what about a bug on your shoulder? Or a Chinese character? Or the word "STIPPLE" tattooed across the back of your neck? Are those all rational in-group/out-group identification too? What group do people with those giant holes in their ears belong to? Incidentally, I'm asking these questions specifically to gain insight as to what the rational reasons for body modification might be, so give me some credit.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 10:38:42 GMT -5
As long as the modification is by choice I don't really care what people do. There are a lot of modifications I don't get, like plastic surgery to make you look like Joan Rivers sister, those big ear holes and whole sleeves of tattoos. But not my problem. I don't particularly care what other people do either. But I am curious about why they subject themselves to risk, pain, expense, infection, and potential regret to modify themselves in ways that are neither unique nor, in my opinion, attractive.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 11, 2015 10:41:13 GMT -5
I have 12 tattoos right now and am planning to get more. I love every single one of them. Some of them I have been wearing for almost 20 years and don't regret any of them. In fact, Thing 1 and I are getting matching tattoos for her 18th birthday. All of my tattoos have meaning. I hope to have a full sleeve eventually.
Piercings I have as well. However, they are only ear piercings. I have 3 in my right ear and 5 in the left. It was the 90s. I'm thinking about getting one in my nose, but I don't know how work would like it. But they have no problem with the tattoos, so I'm thinking that it's not a big deal.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 10:41:39 GMT -5
Considering body modification has included such things as foot binding, corsets, and female genital mutilation, I think tats are preferable. That's true. It's also true is that foot binding, corsets, and FGM are preferable to burning people's faces off with acid, but their relative preferability doesn't make them rational.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Nov 11, 2015 10:44:28 GMT -5
Anthropologically, it's as rational as anything else. In-group/out-group identification, depending on the modification. Similarly, the choice NOT to have tattoos or piercings identifies you as part of a group as well. Human beings have modified their bodies for pretty much as long as there have been human beings. To decide that this is irrational because the current types of body modification are not to your personal liking is not an inherently rational position. It's just the one you happen to like. "Belonging to part of a group" is a rational basis for the modification, but what group(s) are you choosing to belong to? Gang tattoos I understand. But what about a bug on your shoulder? Or a Chinese character? Or the word "STIPPLE" tattooed across the back of your neck? Are those all rational in-group/out-group identification too? What group do people with those giant holes in their ears belong to? Incidentally, I'm asking these questions specifically to gain insight as to what the rational reasons for body modification might be, so give me some credit. In order, my assumptions for each group would be: Depending on the bug (ladybug, praying mantis, butterfly): sorority girls or quirky girls Chinese character: college kids who think they are deep Stipple: artists. Giant holes: artists/people who refuse to get a grown-up job. Each of these tattoos/modifications, depending on location and context, can usually be easily fit into a group based on what the tattoo is, or fit into a group at the time they got the modification. ETA: I would say a lot of the tattoos/piercings/whatever are outgroup notifiers, i.e., by getting these visible modifications you have essentially defined yourself as NOT THE SAME TYPE OF PERSON AS VIRGIL.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 10:48:30 GMT -5
I have 12 tattoos right now and am planning to get more. I love every single one of them. Some of them I have been wearing for almost 20 years and don't regret any of them. In fact, Thing 1 and I are getting matching tattoos for her 18th birthday. All of my tattoos have meaning. I hope to have a full sleeve eventually. Piercings I have as well. However, they are only ear piercings. I have 3 in my right ear and 5 in the left. It was the 90s. I'm thinking about getting one in my nose, but I don't know how work would like it. But they have no problem with the tattoos, so I'm thinking that it's not a big deal. Can you articulate any specific reasons why you like them? Do you feel they enhance your appearance? Does it matter you whether or not other people concur, or is your own opinion uniquely important? Did you get them to identify yourself as part of a specific group?
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Nov 11, 2015 10:49:09 GMT -5
I don't get piercings or tattoos, but I've had plastic surgery, and plan to do so again, so I don't have a whole lot of room to argue the point, frankly. I guess I could plead my case for medical necessity, whereas tats and piercings aren't, but outside of that, I'd lose the fight. So I have to say, eh, whatever. As long as you are not aiming the ink or needle in my direction, we're good.
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flamingo
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Post by flamingo on Nov 11, 2015 10:55:42 GMT -5
I put some thought into my 4 tattoos before I got them, because I knew they'd be there forever. So, design and placement were big factors. I don't regret any of them. The first one I got, I thought through the least, and partially did it because no one would believe that I'd done it, but that wasn't the only reason I did it. It's in a place that is covered all the time and no one sees if unless I specially show them. The other 3 can be covered for work easy enough, but if one peeks out here and there, no one's shocked/cares. I didn't do it to belong or be a rebel (except for a small part of the first one ). I did it just because I wanted to. I think the 4 I have look cool and, while others have commented on them, I certainly don't care if no one ever notices or comments. They mean something to me, even if it's just "hey, I really like this design and I really like the way it looks on me". One of them is a symbol that is meaningful to me with my wedding date. I also have pierced ears. I was 11 I think, when I finally got them done, and I did it so I could wear pretty earrings. At one time, I had a pierced belly button. The only reason I don't now is because I had abdominal surgery and had to remove it for that, and the hole got stitched up during the process. My DH wants us to get matching tattoos on our wrists of a symbol that is important to him. So far, we haven't, party because it would ALWAYS be visible and I'm not sure I want that, and partly because he doesn't believe in tattoos. In reality, I think he's afraid of the pain!!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 10:57:02 GMT -5
ETA: I would say a lot of the tattoos/piercings/whatever are outgroup notifiers, i.e., by getting these visible modifications you have essentially defined yourself as NOT THE SAME TYPE OF PERSON AS VIRGIL. But how do they know? For example, I'm an artist in the sense of composing and publishing digital music. I play the keyboard. I write fiction. I might have a great many interests and talents in common with a self-described artist, but I've never felt compelled to put holes in my ears, etc. Moreover, I thought the whole point of artistry was to eschew conformity and derivative works, hence how does that reconcile with stamping yourself with a particular label in conformity with a group? Isn't it far more likely that you're striving to emulate what already exists?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 11, 2015 11:00:20 GMT -5
Good discussion so far. Got to go work. Sorry. Keep it up! Be back in a few hours.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 11, 2015 11:05:03 GMT -5
Even non-conformists conform to the standards set by their chosen group. Humans really aren't capable of being true "non conformists". We are programmed to want to belong and be accepted b/c that is how we have survived. We are also programmed to want to easily identify "us" vs "them" so you're going to pick something that makes it clear you're apart of your group and not another one so other members can identify you.
I want to join group X. Group X shows that it is "non conformist" as opposed to group Y by having sleeve tattoos. Since I want to be accepted by group X I will at some point get sleeve tattoos.
If you don't have sleeve tattoos then clearly you don't belong to group X.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 11, 2015 11:09:54 GMT -5
I suppose I ought to actually answer the questions in the OP. maybe that will spark some discussion. I have pierced ears, a single piercing in each. I typically wear a pair of large silver hoops daily. the only other jewelry I routinely wear is a medical alert bracelet, and I have a handful of designs to choose from. as far as ink, I have a single tattoo on the top of my left foot. it is a tracing of the signature of my late Nana, from the last card she gave before passing away over a decade ago. I'm incredibly proud of myself for being able to sit through the pain (foot tats are NOT pleasant to endure....lots of nerve endings! ) and now I have a reminder of the woman that helped to raise my sis and me. I smile every time I catch a glimpse of the ink, and I do not at all regret having it done. OK. So a symbol that evokes an emotional response. ...on your foot. I'll put that in the "neither here nor there" category, rationality-wise. Most people have emotional investments in at least a few objects, and a low-key tattoo doesn't strike me as all that different. Are emotional keepsakes rational? Yes. No. Sort of. Was there a specific reason you got a tattoo rather than, say, putting up a photo of your Nana in a prominent place at work/home, or keeping her signature in a conspicuous location in your pocketbook where you'd see it often? What made you decide that a tattoo on your foot was the memento you wanted? on my foot b/c it is clearly visible when I wear most of the shoes in my closet. it often becomes an icebreaker when new people notice it, and it's a far more regular reminder to me than a picture I might not notice when I walk by it in the hallway. I have mementos in my home, but this one is more "her" to me than the material things. she signed every card she ever gave exactly the same way, and that's what this tat is. my sis has the same one, in the same place, and our cousins have all smiled the first time seeing them - because they remember getting cards with that sig as well. I get that you don't find value in tats, and I'm honestly kind of curious why you'd ask people to explain their rationale. it's not like any of us are going to change your mind.
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mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on Nov 11, 2015 11:17:29 GMT -5
A DNR Tattoo is rational! I doubt any hospital would obey a DNR order in the form of a tattoo, because it could be years old and the person could have changed their minds. However, it would probably cause hospital personnel to ask the next of kin about the person's current DNR wishes.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 11, 2015 11:20:53 GMT -5
I have 12 tattoos right now and am planning to get more. I love every single one of them. Some of them I have been wearing for almost 20 years and don't regret any of them. In fact, Thing 1 and I are getting matching tattoos for her 18th birthday. All of my tattoos have meaning. I hope to have a full sleeve eventually. Piercings I have as well. However, they are only ear piercings. I have 3 in my right ear and 5 in the left. It was the 90s. I'm thinking about getting one in my nose, but I don't know how work would like it. But they have no problem with the tattoos, so I'm thinking that it's not a big deal. Can you articulate any specific reasons why you like them? Do you feel they enhance your appearance? Does it matter you whether or not other people concur, or is your own opinion uniquely important? Did you get them to identify yourself as part of a specific group? They are art IMO. And some, like the ones with my kid's names have meaning. I do feel that they enhance my appearance and I don't care if other people concur. None of them are offensive, so I don't feel it should matter. A couple of them I did get to identify as part of a group. I hung around with a lot of gang bangers when I was in high school, so some of my first tattoos are a little thuggish. But I still like them and don't regret them. It just tells a little of my story.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 11, 2015 11:23:43 GMT -5
A DNR Tattoo is rational! I doubt any hospital would obey a DNR order in the form of a tattoo, because it could be years old and the person could have changed their minds. However, it would probably cause hospital personnel to ask the next of kin about the person's current DNR wishes. People generally don't have a DNR for years. Usually you get one when you know death is reasonably likely to be soon. And I've never seen a DNR tattoo, but I did know a guy that was diabetic and did have a tattoo in some very pretty lettering stating so.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Nov 11, 2015 11:30:46 GMT -5
I doubt any hospital would obey a DNR order in the form of a tattoo, because it could be years old and the person could have changed their minds. However, it would probably cause hospital personnel to ask the next of kin about the person's current DNR wishes. People generally don't have a DNR for years. Usually you get one when you know death is reasonably likely to be soon. And I've never seen a DNR tattoo, but I did know a guy that was diabetic and did have a tattoo in some very pretty lettering stating so. My lawyer would make mince meat out of them for NOT honoring a written instruction. The law calls for a written living will. That would qualify, especially if no NOK is available.
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cael
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Post by cael on Nov 11, 2015 11:33:45 GMT -5
On some level, I feel if an individual comes up with a sound enough reason they want it, that's rational to them. Rational will be different for different people - my friend just got a Wonder Woman tattoo on her arm which looks aaaaaawwwwful and I wouldn't have gotten it - she got it for her daughter and she loves it, so can I tell her that for her, that was an irrational choice? I don't think I can. I got my ears pierced when I was 10 because I wanted to, I obviously don't mind it even though I don't wear earrings much anymore. I got a cartilage piercing on my upper ear when I was 19ish, and I actually like that a lot and still wear an earring in it all the time. I have one tattoo, an infinity on my upper back, only visible when I wear a tank top or low enough shirt, and I thought about that for 10 years before I got it. I like the symbol and like where I got it and have never regretted it... so could someone tell me that was irrational? Sure you can tell me that, but I made a perfectly rational decision to get it, as a mentally sound (enough ) person who considered all pros and cons, so someone telling me it was irrational wouldn't particularly have any bearing on me. I dunno. That's my two cents. Some people make idiotic decisions like face tattoos and maybe some of them would admit the decision wasn't entirely rational... or maybe they'll insist it was. people are all different, and strange.
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