Debate of the Day: Body Modification

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 12, 2015 13:03:48 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 12, 2015 12:26:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

In my mind, fence as "pristine" is absurd. Fence is a modification of both the universe in general and the materials with which it is built in particular.

I'm not sure what's so pristine about my body. I have scars, stretch marks, and age spots.

Still better than scarred, stretched, spotted tattoos.



The good news is that if her skin sags a little more, the '8' will become an infinity and the message won't seem quite so ridiculous.

[billisonboard]

Nov 12, 2015 13:54:18 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...



...

What a beautiful expression of life displayed in that image.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The good news is that if her skin sags a little more, the '8' will become an infinity and the message won't seem quite so ridiculous

Maybe it reminds her of a better time in life or reminds her to stay young at heart.  There could be an interesting story behind that tattoo for all you know.

It's not like she forced you to get one so why do you care?

[Opti]

Still better than scarred, stretched, spotted tattoos.

I'm confused. If you do not like tattoos to start with, why would it matter if they are spotted, stretched or

have scars  running through them?

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 12, 2015 14:09:24 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

The good news is that if her skin sags a little more, the '8' will become an infinity and the message won't seem quite so ridiculous

Maybe it reminds her of a better time in life or reminds her to stay young at heart.  There could be an interesting story behind that tattoo for all you know.

It's not like she forced you to get one so why do you care?

Because it summarizes the vanity and futility of the act in a single photo.

Besides, you've been too candid with your opinions on plastic surgeries and butt augmentation to "so why do you care" me.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 12, 2015 14:28:16 GMT -5 Opti said:

Still better than scarred, stretched, spotted tattoos.

I'm confused. If you do not like tattoos to start with, why would it matter if they are spotted, stretched or

have scars  running through them?

Many people who do like tattoos to start with change their minds when they see them spotted, stretched, and with scars running through them. The arc started when swamp challenged my characterization of the human body as "pristine".

"Pristine" simply means untouched, BTW. It has the connotation of cleanliness and beauty, but that's not its principal meaning. There is such a thing as a pristine cow pie, for example.

[justme]

I have a pierced lip. Never been infected in ten years. I eat perfectly fine. I spoke with my parents on the phone for over a month before they saw me in person and had no idea I had it done. Managed to graduate in the top of my M.B.A. class with it.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Because it summarizes the vanity and futility of the act in a single photo.

To you maybe.   If she has indeed had it that long then she had plenty of time to consider it's removal and opted not to.  So even though you seem to see it as pointless it's apparently not to her.

Honestly that's the kind of old lady I want to be, the one barring her tramp stamp and not caring what other people think.   Beats  pink cat sweaters and polyester pant suits.

[Deleted]

I only have pierced ears. 2 holes in one and 3 in the other. I could only do so much for ear piercings as my old hearing aid was a behind-the-ear and I had to leave room for it. By the way, home piercing with a sharp stud earring and an ice cube is not recommended. And I was completely sober. Just bored. I tried a cartilage piercing (done at a store) but that got infected in a big ugly, antibiotic shot in the ass, way. 

I had thought about getting my nose pierced but watching my college roommate deal with hers when it got infected cured me of that desire right damn quick. That and I spend a lot of time blowing my nose. It would not go well.

I would like a tattoo, just never got around to getting one. I thought about a band of bear heads around my upper arm but I'm fat and have thought about how it would look if I lost weight or, God forbid, gained more. Now, though, I have a beautiful line of burn marks up my right arm so I'm thinking about having them outlined in black and then I could have tiger stripes.

My sister has hers on her ankles. A Bruins emblem and a Tweety bird. 

NomoreDramaQ1015, I'm with you on the gauges. I don't know why but I just want to slap someone when I see them do that to their ears. Gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The piercing that weirds me out is the bridge of the nose.   Imagining getting that done gives me the willies.

I've always wanted to get my nose pierced but never got around to it.  I've been thinking about it for my 35th birthday, probably will chicken out again.

[cael]

I was actually thinking about getting a small nose stud over the summer, I think it looks nice when it's tiny and tasteful like that... and the good news is you can just remove it if it interferes with a job or job search. I can't do it now obviously but it's still on the table for the future...

[billisonboard]

Nov 11, 2015 9:17:03 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...

I'm going to be critical, hence don't answer if you don't want to face criticism, but I am genuinely trying to understand what mental process is behind body modification. Is it purely an irrational act, or is there something more to it?
...

Nov 12, 2015 14:37:29 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...Because it summarizes the vanity and futility of the act in a single photo.
...

See, you do have some understanding of it. It is futile. We are all going to die and our earthly vessel will burn or rot. If we manage to live long enough we will decay to some degree prior to that death. It is vanity. We all work to some degree to deny that decay and death is our fate.

[Pants]

Nov 12, 2015 11:24:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It seems I have an unusually negative view of body modification, then. 

Why do you find this surprising? You're one of the most socially conservative people on this board. This is consistent with those attitudes. 

My question for you: what about women's pierced ears. Does this fall into the body modification=gross camp for you? Or is that somehow exempt? My suspicion is that you're ok with body modifications that are societally mainstreamed, but not ok with those that aren't. However, you would be surprised at what is now mainstream...

[justme]

As for reasoning behind it. There were several. I made out with guys with their lip pierced and liked it. My add would like to pick out the shiny! on people and the lip ring was most often noticed. At the time I was still planning on law school or business which most likely wouldn't be ok with a lip piercing.

And finally because I wanted it. My first bf had just broken up with me. I had been thinking about getting it done for a while, and in the midst of my moping my bff asked what would make me happy. And the first thing out of my mouth without thought was to get my lip pierced. A couple days later a friend was asking if someone wanted to go with him when he was doing his ears and I jumped right on it.

I don't think wanting something is irrational. If anything doing something you don't want to do is more irrational. Though we do both.

I wanted my lip pierced, not doing it because of an almost nonexistence risk of infection, seconds of pain, and what strangers might think is what's irrational to me.

[justme]

Nov 12, 2015 15:31:19 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

The piercing that weirds me out is the bridge of the nose.   Imagining getting that done gives me the willies.

I've always wanted to get my nose pierced but never got around to it.  I've been thinking about it for my 35th birthday, probably will chicken out again.

The corset piercing is what skeeves me out.

[billisonboard]

Nov 12, 2015 15:45:47 GMT -5 Pants said:

Nov 12, 2015 11:24:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It seems I have an unusually negative view of body modification, then. 

Why do you find this surprising? You're one of the most socially conservative people on this board. This is consistent with those attitudes. 

My question for you: what about women's pierced ears. Does this fall into the body modification=gross camp for you? Or is that somehow exempt? My suspicion is that you're ok with body modifications that are societally mainstreamed, but not ok with those that aren't. However, you would be surprised at what is now mainstream...

I wonder to what degree there is also a religious component for Virgil. Let me see if I can talk about it in a way that is okay for the EE board:

If my wife gave me a gift of a vacation that she has planned out and I make serious changes to the itinerary, she stands a good chance of being insulted.

Not perfect but gives the sense I hope.

[ArchietheDragon]

hair plugs are a body mod that I could get behind.     Not sure I could stomach the expense, though. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

I saw some pics on MSN of people who have implants to make it look like they have horns on their foreheads. I guess it's no different than cheek or chin implants.   Still....

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

was actually thinking about getting a small nose stud over the summer,

I talked to Dh about it and he surprised me by not being against it.   He said though if I do it I should get a small ring.  He thinks the studs make it look like you have a booger on your nose.

[daisy]

Nov 12, 2015 9:58:37 GMT -5 siralynn said:

I haven't seen any in person for obvious reasons, but I do remember seeing some pictures of breast cancer survivor tattoos on the internet some number of years ago. There was an artist lending free or discounted services to women who had to undergo mastectomies and didn't want reconstructive surgeries. Instead they had gotten beautiful designs tattooed on their chests over the scars.

This is what I wish I had done.  I opted for reconstruction and I regret it every day.  Only the left side was removed and I look like a pornstarn on that side and a 50 year old woman on the other, despite a 'lift' that the surgeon talked me into.  My options now are to continue life obviously lopsided, have the plastic bag removed, buy a really expensive bra that somewhat neutralizes the difference or just live with it.  Sigh.

I have two tattoos.  One on the back of my neck and one on the plastic bag that pretends to be my left breast.  The tattoo was put on years before my BC diagnosis, so it's somewhat ironic now that I have a beautiful tattoo of the sun that is too far to the right to mask any surgery scars.  I have no feeling on that skin (donated cadaver skin) so getting a tattoo over the whole thing would be painless, but $$$.

My ears were pierced when I was young, at the doctor's office so I've never had any issues with those holes; when I was a bored teenager working at Dairy Queen on a slow day, a co-worker offered to pierce a second hole on one side (very cool in the 80's) so I let her.  Nothing but trouble from that one!  I think we used somewhat sanitary procedure.....but eh.  Then when I hit my 40's a gf and I got our cartilage pierced.  That one has closed up and I miss it every so often, but DH doesn't care for it so it's not a hill I'm going to die on.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The horns on the head thing I don't get.

Mainly b/c from what I've learned watching Botched and other shows those kinds of implants are illegal in the states.  So they are going to unlicensed professionals to have this stuff implanted under their skin.

If you're going to do a body modification at least do one where the industry is regulated and there are enforced health codes.

[billisonboard]

Nov 12, 2015 17:01:30 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

The horns on the head thing I don't get.

...

[Green Eyed Lady]

Nov 12, 2015 16:49:31 GMT -5 daisy said:

Nov 12, 2015 9:58:37 GMT -5 siralynn said:

I haven't seen any in person for obvious reasons, but I do remember seeing some pictures of breast cancer survivor tattoos on the internet some number of years ago. There was an artist lending free or discounted services to women who had to undergo mastectomies and didn't want reconstructive surgeries. Instead they had gotten beautiful designs tattooed on their chests over the scars.

This is what I wish I had done.  I opted for reconstruction and I regret it every day.  Only the left side was removed and I look like a pornstarn on that side and a 50 year old woman on the other, despite a 'lift' that the surgeon talked me into.  My options now are to continue life obviously lopsided, have the plastic bag removed, buy a really expensive bra that somewhat neutralizes the difference or just live with it.  Sigh.

I have two tattoos.  One on the back of my neck and one on the plastic bag that pretends to be my left breast.  The tattoo was put on years before my BC diagnosis, so it's somewhat ironic now that I have a beautiful tattoo of the sun that is too far to the right to mask any surgery scars.  I have no feeling on that skin (donated cadaver skin) so getting a tattoo over the whole thing would be painless, but $$$.

My ears were pierced when I was young, at the doctor's office so I've never had any issues with those holes; when I was a bored teenager working at Dairy Queen on a slow day, a co-worker offered to pierce a second hole on one side (very cool in the 80's) so I let her.  Nothing but trouble from that one!  I think we used somewhat sanitary procedure.....but eh.  Then when I hit my 40's a gf and I got our cartilage pierced.  That one has closed up and I miss it every so often, but DH doesn't care for it so it's not a hill I'm going to die on.

Thank you for sharing your story. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 12, 2015 15:45:47 GMT -5 Pants said:

Nov 12, 2015 11:24:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It seems I have an unusually negative view of body modification, then. 

Why do you find this surprising? You're one of the most socially conservative people on this board. This is consistent with those attitudes. 

My question for you: what about women's pierced ears. Does this fall into the body modification=gross camp for you? Or is that somehow exempt? My suspicion is that you're ok with body modifications that are societally mainstreamed, but not ok with those that aren't. However, you would be surprised at what is now mainstream...

As I state in the OP, I generally except pierced ears in women because it's a strong societal norm. I remember my sister begging my mom to let her get her ears pierced at age 11. It was something girls did to prove they were socially mature.

Having said this, pierced ears don't do anything for me. ...except on my wife, of course. They make her glow radiantly.

As for my being surprised, I shouldn't be, but sometimes I forget just how left-leaning the board is. Out in the real world, fewer than 20% of people have tattoos, and most of that is concentrated in younger demographics. 60% of people think tattoos make people less attractive compared to 8% who think they make people more attractive. The numbers are even lower for (non-ear) piercings.

Hence my views are very mainstream--overwhelmingly so for the board age demographic--but to read this thread you'd think me and lund were the only two people on Earth who didn't care for body modification.

ETA: It's worth pointing out that views on body modification aren't strictly a left-vs-right issue. 26% of self-described liberals report having tattoos compared to 18% of self-described conservatives. That's hardly a gaping divide.

[Pants]

Nov 12, 2015 18:24:55 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 12, 2015 15:45:47 GMT -5 Pants said:

Why do you find this surprising? You're one of the most socially conservative people on this board. This is consistent with those attitudes. 

My question for you: what about women's pierced ears. Does this fall into the body modification=gross camp for you? Or is that somehow exempt? My suspicion is that you're ok with body modifications that are societally mainstreamed, but not ok with those that aren't. However, you would be surprised at what is now mainstream...

As I state in the OP, I generally except pierced ears in women because it's a strong societal norm. I remember my sister begging my mom to let her get her ears pierced at age 11. It was something girls did to prove they were socially mature.

Having said this, pierced ears don't do anything for me. ...except on my wife, of course. They make her glow radiantly.

As for my being surprised, I shouldn't be, but sometimes I forget just how left-leaning the board is. Out in the real world, fewer than 20% of people have tattoos, and most of that is concentrated in younger demographics. 60% of people think tattoos make people less attractive compared to 8% who think they make people more attractive. The numbers are even lower for (non-ear) piercings.

Hence my views are very mainstream--overwhelmingly so for the board age demographic--but to read this thread you'd think me and lund were the only two people on Earth who didn't care for body modification.

ETA: It's worth pointing out that views on body modification aren't strictly a left-vs-right issue. 26% of self-described liberals report having tattoos compared to 18% of self-described conservatives. That's hardly a gaping divide.

Enh I haven't shared my personal opinion on body modification. As far as the politics, I was speaking specifically about social conservatism, vs political conservatism. But your data is interesting regardless. I think tattoos are becoming more mainstream every day, as you said they are more prevalent among the young.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2015 15:31:19 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

The piercing that weirds me out is the bridge of the nose.   Imagining getting that done gives me the willies.

I've always wanted to get my nose pierced but never got around to it.  I've been thinking about it for my 35th birthday, probably will chicken out again.

Do it!

[Robert not Bobby]

I don't know anything about body modification...I'm almost perfect. But really, if you are talking about tattoos...if they are tasteful, well done and discreet, I don't have a problem with that. If they are on your forehead and scream idiotic things...I will look away.

We are all different in our sense of body art.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2015 15:35:24 GMT -5 cael said:

I was actually thinking about getting a small nose stud over the summer, I think it looks nice when it's tiny and tasteful like that... and the good news is you can just remove it if it interferes with a job or job search. I can't do it now obviously but it's still on the table for the future...

You too!

mine is so small you can't even see it on most pictures of me. 

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2015 9:04:22 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

@richardintn: The modifications you're talking about (hair combing/cutting) are cultural norms. They're the "default", so to speak. You'd need a strong rationale to not cut or comb your hair, given the social consequences. Moreover, cut hair is functional (for distinguishing between male and female, for example), hygienic, it comports with broad social perceptions of beauty, and it isn't permanent. Even if a teen decides to dye his hair blue, shave it, and style it it to a mohawk, he's only stuck with the consequences of that decision for a few months.

Having said all this, you correctly point out that not all people come by their hairstyles rationally. The fact that we don't see a lot of 50-year-olds with wacky, stand-out hairstyles speaks to the impermanence of peoples' desire to stand out, brand themselves, or identify with certain groups. Watching videos of the 70's, 80's, and 90's today, people laugh at the more radical notions of what people thought was stylish and/or attractive. I have no doubt that 20 years from now, people will look back at the "cool", stand-out artists and celebrities of today and laugh just as hard. Those who emulate them believe the symbols will have enduring appeal, but they don't. They're a fad. They get old fast.

To me, tattoos and piercings are in the same boat. They're shortsighted. They betray a lack of due consideration for how radically our priorities, attitudes, and styles can change as we grow older. Even if they ultimately don't change, the sheer likelihood that they will makes permanent body modification a non-starter IMO.

No one comes by a hairstyle "rationally".

Why part it on the left instead of the right? What about center parting?

Curls, waves or straight?

Short, "Buzz-cut", "Bowl-cut", "Off the ear", Shoulder length, or Long?

Natural color or artificially Blonde, Brunette, Red, Purple or Green?



Yes... All those choices may be more temporary that a tattoo... but they are still body modification choices (except leaving hair "Natural color"... although, it could be argued, to choose to NOT modify is also a choice)

[NastyWoman]

No tattoos or piercings here. And the only time I ever give either any thought is when I see a person who works in a minimum wage job and has full sleeve tattoos, piercings etc.  It's even worse when they are complaining about how expensive everything is and how they can't afford (fill in the blank).  But it never even entered my mind, until some here mentioned getting a gift of a tattoo, that that person possibly did not have paid for the tattoo