billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2015 15:14:32 GMT -5
Yeah....the world issues tons of ultimatums every day. It's semantics to argue otherwise. Now stop it or else.
(I really don't know what "or else" is. My mom just said it a lot and I was never dumb enough to find out.) I was dumb enough to find out. It was violence in my mother's case.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 4, 2015 15:26:00 GMT -5
Nobody has been able to define "better options". ... No one has been able to define an option that Virgil thinks is better. Let us play: Sure. Right after we play
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 4, 2015 15:32:04 GMT -5
Yeah....the world issues tons of ultimatums every day. It's semantics to argue otherwise. Now stop it or else.
(I really don't know what "or else" is. My mom just said it a lot and I was never dumb enough to find out.) I was dumb enough to find out. It was violence in my mother's case. Oh...I know it would have in my house. She didn't always give warnings.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2015 15:38:32 GMT -5
No one has been able to define an option that Virgil thinks is better. Let us play: Sure. Right after we play Violence is played every minute of every day. Unfortunately the board will not allow me to post the evidence of that violence.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 4, 2015 15:57:17 GMT -5
Sure. Right after we play Violence is played every minute of every day. Unfortunately the board will not allow me to post the evidence of that violence. For good reason. You want to post pictures of brutalized infants, children with their heads split open, husbands standing on their wives' throats. You wait until people gasp in disgust, then jump in waving your hands: "You see! All violence is the same! Today it's a police officer flipping a rebellious teen. Tomorrow it will be that teenager taking an axe to her six-month-old daughter. Won't somebody think of the children!" Then you sit back sipping your Coke, because what will your opponents dare say when you're just waiting to spin their pro-violence arguments into pro-all-kinds-of-violence arguments on a thread full of brutalized infants? I can respect consistency, common themes, common principles, but there is no way "all violence is the same" is a reasonable argument. We have different types, different degrees, different situations, different purposes, different actors, different everything, and the differences are significant.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2015 16:02:31 GMT -5
Violence is played every minute of every day. Unfortunately the board will not allow me to post the evidence of that violence. For good reason. You want to post pictures of brutalized infants, children with their heads split open, husbands standing on their wives' throats. You wait until people gasp in disgust, then jump in waving your hands: "You see! All violence is the same! Today it's a police officer flipping a rebellious teen. Tomorrow it will be that teenager taking an axe to her six-month-old daughter. Won't somebody think of the children!" Then you sit back sipping your Coke, because what will your opponents dare say when you're just waiting to spin their pro-violence arguments into pro-all-kinds-of-violence arguments on a thread full of brutalized infants? I can respect consistency, common themes, common principles, but there is no way "all violence is the same" is a reasonable argument. We have different types, different degrees, different situations, different purposes, different actors, different everything, and the differences are significant. When you teach children in school that violence is the ultimate answer to unmet needs and desires, you get what you get. Yes, you can sit back and rationalize it all you wish but when hand comes to face, it doesn't take place on the rational level.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 4, 2015 16:08:30 GMT -5
Nope but it makes a point.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2015 16:16:02 GMT -5
Nope but it makes a point. and that point is "use violence if you aren't getting what you want."
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 4, 2015 17:46:37 GMT -5
Yup, it sends a message. Had she been disciplined properly all the way along, and proper behavior reinforced by the school, it would have never happened. Unfortunately, doing whatever just came home to roost. I expect we will see more of her and others like her in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 19:33:30 GMT -5
Yeah....the world issues tons of ultimatums every day. It's semantics to argue otherwise. Now stop it or else.
(I really don't know what "or else" is. My mom just said it a lot and I was never dumb enough to find out.) I was dumb enough to find out. It was violence in my mother's case. Me too... but not often. Occasional reminders were enough to straighten me out for a good long while again. ETA: and every single time I got those reminders... I DESERVED them because I was the one that broke the rules.
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jambo101
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Post by jambo101 on Nov 4, 2015 23:03:08 GMT -5
We can debate the issue forever but ultimately it comes down to you thinking the officers actions were justified and me thinking a place devoted to higher learning should have better options than physically assaulting students for transgressions of rules. But you have not been able to come up with a viable better option either. In a bad situation, what trumps? Do you let one student ruin things for the rest of the class? If that one student is allowed to run roughshod over the teacher and administration, that opens it up for other students to do so as well and turns the classroom into anything but a learning environment. I'm not sure WHAT should have been done, but the problem was dealt with and the other students were shown that if you try to pull a power play on the teacher/administrator/SRO, it's not going to work. I've given 2 alternate courses of action. I cant believe so many think the only way to control a child is through the threat of physical assault either at home or at school.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 23:40:06 GMT -5
But you have not been able to come up with a viable better option either. In a bad situation, what trumps? Do you let one student ruin things for the rest of the class? If that one student is allowed to run roughshod over the teacher and administration, that opens it up for other students to do so as well and turns the classroom into anything but a learning environment. I'm not sure WHAT should have been done, but the problem was dealt with and the other students were shown that if you try to pull a power play on the teacher/administrator/SRO, it's not going to work. I've given 2 alternate courses of action. I cant believe so many think the only way to control a child is through the threat of physical assault either at home or at school. The key word in The Walk of the Penguin Mich's question though was "viable". The options you suggested weren't really viable for one reason or another. So... how about some viable alternatives?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 23:44:52 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the various "pick up the desk with her in it and carry it out of the classroom" suggestions (including the "drag the desk" ones)... How would anyone that suggested either of those as "viable" think the public would have reacted had she been carried or dragged out while still in the chair, and she had fallen out of the desk while it was being carried or dragged? How would YOU have reacted if that had happened?
My guess is they all would then be saying something like "Why carry/drag the desk? That's obviously dangerous. Just get her out of the desk and THEN remove her!"
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2015 23:47:21 GMT -5
... So... how about some viable alternatives? Isolate by removing the other students.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 23:55:10 GMT -5
... So... how about some viable alternatives? Isolate by removing the other students. Not viable. What do you do with the other students? How does the teacher teach the class without his/her classroom materials?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 5, 2015 0:12:59 GMT -5
Isolate by removing the other students. Not viable. ... I see it as viable because I actually did it when I taught. What is the basis of your absolute statement that it isn't viable?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 2:02:52 GMT -5
I see it as viable because I actually did it when I taught. What is the basis of your absolute statement that it isn't viable? School overcrowding. They aren't overcrowded because they have extra unused areas.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 5, 2015 9:05:44 GMT -5
For good reason. You want to post pictures of brutalized infants, children with their heads split open, husbands standing on their wives' throats. You wait until people gasp in disgust, then jump in waving your hands: "You see! All violence is the same! Today it's a police officer flipping a rebellious teen. Tomorrow it will be that teenager taking an axe to her six-month-old daughter. Won't somebody think of the children!" Then you sit back sipping your Coke, because what will your opponents dare say when you're just waiting to spin their pro-violence arguments into pro-all-kinds-of-violence arguments on a thread full of brutalized infants? I can respect consistency, common themes, common principles, but there is no way "all violence is the same" is a reasonable argument. We have different types, different degrees, different situations, different purposes, different actors, different everything, and the differences are significant. When you teach children in school that violence is the ultimate answer to unmet needs and desires, you get what you get. Yes, you can sit back and rationalize it all you wish but when hand comes to face, it doesn't take place on the rational level. Sure it does. Police officers are trained to subdue individuals with measured application of force. This means getting a perp onto the ground, prone, unable to resist, as quickly as possible without causing serious injury. Officers go through hours of instruction and drilling precisely so that they're conditioned to execute a rational response in the heat of the moment. What we saw in the video was a product of that training. We can debate whether or not the takedown was necessary (as we've been doing) but I see no evidence that the officer lost control. More specifically, there's no evidence to support the claim that the takedown resulted from his "unmet needs and desires", and there's considerable evidence, including his track record and good rapport with the students, that the claim is bunkum. As for the case of the librarian slapping the student's face, that response was more involuntary, and in that sense, irrational. That doesn't mean it wasn't the appropriate response. There's obviously some conditioning involved because a slap isn't a particularly natural, brutal way of lashing out at somebody. A truly irrational individual I'd expect would punch, claw, kick, shove, tackle, etc. These responses aren't appropriate in such a situation specifically because they risk seriously injuring somebody. A slap doesn't.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 5, 2015 9:09:33 GMT -5
I see it as viable because I actually did it when I taught. What is the basis of your absolute statement that it isn't viable? School overcrowding. They aren't overcrowded because they have extra unused areas. Schools are designed with libraries, lunch rooms, common areas, and gyms. Unless you can give me a link to a discussion of an overcrowding problem at this specific high school which indicates such areas are utilized as classrooms, your generic "(s)chool overcrowding doesn't cut it.
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copperboxes
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Post by copperboxes on Nov 5, 2015 9:50:41 GMT -5
So, mulling over policy is really interesting to me.
As far as I know, currently removal is one of the most common methods of handling prevention or people being defiant or making scenes in pretty much all levels of society.
Pets get lifted and gently moved so they don't walk through wet paint or varnish. Screaming toddlers are picked up and moved by daycare workers and babysitters. If an adult guest gets loud and won't leave someone's house when told to, they'll be forcibly removed by police. If someone pisses off or freaks out lots of people at a workplace, they're also asked to leave or they can be forcibly removed by police.
Removal is generally assumed as a normal result for defiance of the people in control of areas. Gentle removal for pets and screaming children by caretakers, usually more forcible removal for adults since it's usually a police officer, security guard or bouncer doing it.
Ideally, I'd very much prefer all removal be as gentle as possible in all situations. Saying all removal is violent though doesn't jibe with how I lift my curious cat and put him in another room occasionally, or how daycare workers stop little kids from fighting.
Is the hope that if enough people are raised with the concept of "shut down the workplace, remove all the other workers and have a boss take a knee to have a soothing talk session," that this method will become commonplace?
I feel that that has to be the goal, if that method is advocated for all childhood defiance situations.
Otherwise I could see a kid being in for a fairly rough shift in expectations when reaching legal adulthood, given current conditions. Missteps are often very lasting when in adulthood, which is why the goal to me is to prepare kids to stay smart and safe. Question authority, it's a vital life skill, but pick battles.
Currently I can't really see an 18 year old (two or less years away for the girl) in a job violating a basic workplace policy and then pissing off 3 bosses and then defying a police officer going over well. Same for violating international rules while traveling and getting bullheaded with a full hierarchy of local order keepers. Expulsion is probably one of the better results, depending on the country.
Legal adults get removed for a while if they can't keep their emotions in check and have rough compliance. That's often best case scenario. They also get fired and/or charged with trespassing or resisting arrest and the like, especially if they also defy police officers who arrive on scene. Adults don't generally get to come back the next day with no lasting repercussions.
I really prefer gentle removal, but I don't see an inherent disservice is removals of teens during the training phase, given how interwoven removals currently are into world societies and legal code at so many levels. It's a fairly realistic expectation for adulthood, which is just around the bend for teens.
Just pondering this, it's been an interesting discussion, thank you all.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 5, 2015 10:23:57 GMT -5
School overcrowding. They aren't overcrowded because they have extra unused areas. Schools are designed with libraries, lunch rooms, common areas, and gyms. Unless you can give me a link to a discussion of an overcrowding problem at this specific high school which indicates such areas are utilized as classrooms, your generic "(s)chool overcrowding doesn't cut it. Seriously? Granted, my experience in HS is decades old, but I seem to remember the gym being used for classes throughout the day, lunches running from about 10-2, and libraries not really set up for a class of 30 kids. As as most of my classes these days are taught via media (computer with PP generally) on a large screen in front of the classroom, I'm assuming HS is taught similarly as it is much more effective than writing on a white/chalk board. The point is, you have now allowed this defiant teen to run a class out of the room. Don't you think that they aren't going to see that power? Hmmm, I can shut things down, simply by refusing to put up my cell phone. How about next time, when there is a test being given? I'll just pull out my phone and we'll get out of this test. IMO, not a viable alternative.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 5, 2015 10:35:17 GMT -5
Schools are designed with libraries, lunch rooms, common areas, and gyms. Unless you can give me a link to a discussion of an overcrowding problem at this specific high school which indicates such areas are utilized as classrooms, your generic "(s)chool overcrowding doesn't cut it. Seriously? Granted, my experience in HS is decades old, but I seem to remember the gym being used for classes throughout the day, lunches running from about 10-2, and libraries not really set up for a class of 30 kids. As as most of my classes these days are taught via media (computer with PP generally) on a large screen in front of the classroom, I'm assuming HS is taught similarly as it is much more effective than writing on a white/chalk board. The point is, you have now allowed this defiant teen to run a class out of the room. Don't you think that they aren't going to see that power? Hmmm, I can shut things down, simply by refusing to put up my cell phone. How about next time, when there is a test being given? I'll just pull out my phone and we'll get out of this test. IMO, not a viable alternative. Students have the power to stop learning from taking place in the classroom at all times. Forcing the teacher to call in the resource officer has the same disruptive effect as the teacher removing the class. As far as power, removing the class is actually the teacher telling the student, "I am taking the students away to continue teaching. Stay behind if you wish."
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 5, 2015 10:40:17 GMT -5
Schools are designed with libraries, lunch rooms, common areas, and gyms. Unless you can give me a link to a discussion of an overcrowding problem at this specific high school which indicates such areas are utilized as classrooms, your generic "(s)chool overcrowding doesn't cut it. Seriously? Granted, my experience in HS is decades old, but I seem to remember the gym being used for classes throughout the day, lunches running from about 10-2, and libraries not really set up for a class of 30 kids. As as most of my classes these days are taught via media (computer with PP generally) on a large screen in front of the classroom, I'm assuming HS is taught similarly as it is much more effective than writing on a white/chalk board. The point is, you have now allowed this defiant teen to run a class out of the room. Don't you think that they aren't going to see that power? Hmmm, I can shut things down, simply by refusing to put up my cell phone. How about next time, when there is a test being given? I'll just pull out my phone and we'll get out of this test. IMO, not a viable alternative. If a high school English teacher's designated classroom is temporarily out of commission due to say water leaking into the room, are the classes cancelled until the leak and repairs are completed?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 5, 2015 10:47:59 GMT -5
Seriously? Granted, my experience in HS is decades old, but I seem to remember the gym being used for classes throughout the day, lunches running from about 10-2, and libraries not really set up for a class of 30 kids. As as most of my classes these days are taught via media (computer with PP generally) on a large screen in front of the classroom, I'm assuming HS is taught similarly as it is much more effective than writing on a white/chalk board. The point is, you have now allowed this defiant teen to run a class out of the room. Don't you think that they aren't going to see that power? Hmmm, I can shut things down, simply by refusing to put up my cell phone. How about next time, when there is a test being given? I'll just pull out my phone and we'll get out of this test. IMO, not a viable alternative. If a high school English teacher's designated classroom is temporarily out of commission due to say water leaking into the room, are the classes cancelled until the leak and repairs are completed? In my experience, a bucket is placed to catch water until the class is empty and repairs can be made. I went to school in a leaky, old school. Desks are moved out of the way, and the class continues on. I don't EVER remember leaving a class for anything other than a fire drill or planned event.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 5, 2015 10:48:56 GMT -5
Seriously? Granted, my experience in HS is decades old, but I seem to remember the gym being used for classes throughout the day, lunches running from about 10-2, and libraries not really set up for a class of 30 kids. As as most of my classes these days are taught via media (computer with PP generally) on a large screen in front of the classroom, I'm assuming HS is taught similarly as it is much more effective than writing on a white/chalk board. The point is, you have now allowed this defiant teen to run a class out of the room. Don't you think that they aren't going to see that power? Hmmm, I can shut things down, simply by refusing to put up my cell phone. How about next time, when there is a test being given? I'll just pull out my phone and we'll get out of this test. IMO, not a viable alternative. Students have the power to stop learning from taking place in the classroom at all times. Forcing the teacher to call in the resource officer has the same disruptive effect as the teacher removing the class. As far as power, removing the class is actually the teacher telling the student, "I am taking the students away to continue teaching. Stay behind if you wish." But how many actually do?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 5, 2015 10:50:07 GMT -5
Students have the power to stop learning from taking place in the classroom at all times. Forcing the teacher to call in the resource officer has the same disruptive effect as the teacher removing the class. You have a point here, but how much do you want to bet that the only reason the teacher called the resource officer in the first place is because the school prohibits teachers from throwing a student out on their ear?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 5, 2015 12:08:20 GMT -5
If a high school English teacher's designated classroom is temporarily out of commission due to say water leaking into the room, are the classes cancelled until the leak and repairs are completed? In my experience, a bucket is placed to catch water until the class is empty and repairs can be made. I went to school in a leaky, old school. Desks are moved out of the way, and the class continues on. I don't EVER remember leaving a class for anything other than a fire drill or planned event. Reads like your class room was disrupted what with desks having to be moved out of the way. Did the ceiling happen to fall in on you what with wet tiles? I remember having a class moved due to broken windows in the room. We weren't made to sit in a cold class room with broken windows. We had the class in the school library. Accommodations were easily made for us in the library during school hours. And the school cafeteria was always available except during 4th period when 2,800 students ate in it. There were seven school periods during our high school day.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 5, 2015 14:08:37 GMT -5
Students have the power to stop learning from taking place in the classroom at all times. Forcing the teacher to call in the resource officer has the same disruptive effect as the teacher removing the class. As far as power, removing the class is actually the teacher telling the student, "I am taking the students away to continue teaching. Stay behind if you wish." But how many actually do? Few, and that is why it isn't that big a deal to take the time to deal with it in a way that might not be the most time efficient.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 5, 2015 14:12:21 GMT -5
Students have the power to stop learning from taking place in the classroom at all times. Forcing the teacher to call in the resource officer has the same disruptive effect as the teacher removing the class. You have a point here, but how much do you want to bet that the only reason the teacher called the resource officer in the first place is because the school prohibits teachers from throwing a student out on their ear? Before that, how much do you want to bet that the teacher had not effectively established relationships with students that allowed for this to be anything other than a naked power struggle.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 5, 2015 17:49:19 GMT -5
In my experience, a bucket is placed to catch water until the class is empty and repairs can be made. I went to school in a leaky, old school. Desks are moved out of the way, and the class continues on. I don't EVER remember leaving a class for anything other than a fire drill or planned event. Reads like your class room was disrupted what with desks having to be moved out of the way. Did the ceiling happen to fall in on you what with wet tiles? I remember having a class moved due to broken windows in the room. We weren't made to sit in a cold class room with broken windows. We had the class in the school library. Accommodations were easily made for us in the library during school hours. And the school cafeteria was always available except during 4th period when 2,800 students ate in it. There were seven school periods during our high school day. Our library could hold about 10 people...it wasn't very big. No, the ceiling did not fall. They came in and moved a few desks away from the drip and used a bucket to catch the water. It took about 3 minutes. A few ceiling tiles were removed. After classes were over for the day, the leak was fixed and desks replaced. No class had to move. The students ate in shifts as the cafeteria served grades 6-12, and it was not big enough to have all students there at the same time.
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