Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2015 19:30:39 GMT -5
While the kid may have been disruptive in some manner the video just shows her sitting at her desk, was it really necessary for some uniformed thug to come in and beat her up for whatever disruption she was causing? No, it wasn't necessary. Good thing that's not what happened in this situation... isn't it!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 2, 2015 20:30:49 GMT -5
And exactly how do you plan on isolating a student that has dug in their heels? She's demonstrated that she refuses to leave the class, so your solution is that the entire class moves instead? And you think that's not disruptive? Where do you think you are going to move an entire class to, to complete the lesson? Most schools don't have spare rooms as they are already overcrowded. The student's won, regardless. First off, the class is disrupted so that isn't a consideration. The library, cafeteria, or a classroom that has a regular teacher on their prep period ate possibilities for where to move them. Once the power struggle starts, no one wins.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 2, 2015 21:41:41 GMT -5
... Another nice try (I commend your thoroughness in scouring the pot for an argument), casting this a man-on-women issue. I guess it all balances out in your world: The woman is an idiot who will beat her kid in future because a police officer flipped her. But she'll be married to an idiot husband who will beat her in future because he once witnessed a police officer flip a woman. That will be mom's punishment for beating her kid. But who will punish dad? Not to worry. When the kid grows older, he'll see the video of his mom being flipped by a police officer online and this will inspire him to beat his dad. That way the whole situation balances out. In my world: if the male students in the class go on to become police officers, may they also go on to take similar action against men and women alike in similar circumstances. I fully understand that the violence of this situation isn't a concern for you. I do believe that we learn what we do and what is done to us. I love the quote, "Don't worry that your children never listen to a word you say. Worry that they never miss a thing you do." People aren't infants. The vast majority of us can distinguish between a police officer subduing a belligerent drunk (or a stunting teenager in this case) and a parent injuring a child. The vast majority of us can distinguish between a police officer subduing a stunting teenager and a man beating his wife. Your argument here boils down to "We're teaching students that physical force solves problems.", which is true. A stunting teenager refusing to comply with authorities is a problem. The officer solved that problem. (Very effectively, I might add.) But for this to be a bad thing, we have to presume that the utility of the act is outweighed by the risk that the observers (and the teenager herself) are generally too stupid--and I use the word appropriately here--to discriminate between the present circumstances and discipline of young children and/or marital squabbles in future. It also presumes the observers have nothing more concrete than this incident on which to base their parenting skills. Although such a risk could conceivably exist, I'm going on record saying it's absurdly small, and specifically too small to outweigh the utility of the act.
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jambo101
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Post by jambo101 on Nov 3, 2015 6:27:46 GMT -5
Kinda sad that the education system has got to the point that the only response to a child not complying with a teachers request is to have some uniformed thug enter the classroom and beat the kid up.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 3, 2015 7:56:50 GMT -5
Kinda sad that the education system has got to the point that the only response to a child not complying with a teachers request is to have some uniformed thug enter the classroom and beat the kid up. What would you suggest they have done? Call in a hostage negotiator? We've already had it suggested that: - the teacher do nothing, which plainly sends the message to everyone in the class that students can break the rules with impunity
- the teacher wait the student out, which puts the student in control, shows the teacher to be helpless, and wastes everybody's time
- the teacher and principal literally carry the student out of the classroom, desk and all, hoping she doesn't prohibit them from doing so
What do you think should have happened?
As far as I'm concerned, the saddest thing about the situation is that the teacher wasn't permitted to grab the girl by the ear and throw her out of the classroom him/herself.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 3, 2015 8:43:19 GMT -5
Btw, someone has to stay with the student so she still would have been able to make her power play. Leaving her alone with no audience is not allowed. So her behavior would still hold someone "hostage." Years ago an older teacher told me that if parents had to keep their children home until they were civilized, parents would step up to the plate because they don't want them around either. Have you ever noticed the behavior problems are never absent? Believe me when I say one bad student can wreck a classroom. It shouldn't be allowed. Im sorry she lost whoever she was living with. I won't say raising her because it seems they didn't bother. She wasn't crying in class or being emotional, she was being defiant and disrespectful. But that's okay for some reason.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 3, 2015 9:01:57 GMT -5
I'm glad I went to school when I did. We graduated knowing how to read....because teachers were able to teach. Our class time wasn't wasted on one disruptive student. Oh the good ole' days when people didn't believe feeding these behaviors was somehow kinder than stopping them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 3, 2015 11:09:38 GMT -5
Amen
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 3, 2015 12:01:49 GMT -5
... Years ago an older teacher told me that if parents had to keep their children home until they were civilized, parents would step up to the plate because they don't want them around either. ... I remember back when Socrates and I were hanging out at the Teacher Rocks after a long day and him saying something similar. It is an age old teacher lament.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 3, 2015 12:13:00 GMT -5
"New" doesn't necessarily mean better; and "old" doesn't necessarily mean worse.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 3, 2015 12:19:30 GMT -5
"New" doesn't necessarily mean better; and "old" doesn't necessarily mean worse. But "same" does mean "same".
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 3, 2015 12:34:35 GMT -5
Well...it did when I was in school in the olden days.
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jambo101
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Post by jambo101 on Nov 3, 2015 15:33:16 GMT -5
Kinda sad that the education system has got to the point that the only response to a child not complying with a teachers request is to have some uniformed thug enter the classroom and beat the kid up.
If i were the teacher or principal i would have suspended the kid from school for a period of time and informed the parents of such an action and reasons why, if she continued to come to school she would have been denied the writing of any tests or exams and her grade marks would have been withheld until she complied to the schools satisfaction.The resorting to beating the kid up because she wont comply to a teachers demands speaks to a school system that has become morally bankrupt .
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 3, 2015 15:38:33 GMT -5
I meant: What would you have done immediately after she defied your order to put her phone away? Given her a lecture about a suspension and then let her continue beeping away while you continued to teach the lesson?
ETA: Also, I'm going to jump in with the other posters pointing out that the girl was by no means "beat up". The fact that you're relying on that terminology to make your argument shows how thinly stretched it is.
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jambo101
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Post by jambo101 on Nov 3, 2015 15:43:23 GMT -5
I meant: What would you have done immediately after she defied your order to put her phone away? Given her a lecture about a suspension and then let her continue beeping away while you continued to teach the lesson? I would have told her of my impending action,if she still failed to comply she would no longer be considered part of the school, her parents would be informed.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 3, 2015 15:49:55 GMT -5
I meant: What would you have done immediately after she defied your order to put her phone away? Given her a lecture about a suspension and then let her continue beeping away while you continued to teach the lesson? I would have told her of my impending action,if she still failed to comply she would no longer be considered part of the school, her parents would be informed. How would her parents be informed? You'd walk out in the middle of class and phone them up? You'd wait until the end of class? Spend the afternoon in the principal's office discussing the situation with them if and when they showed up? You realize your strategy here boils down to "I'll her on her parents and let them discipline her if they want to."
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jambo101
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Post by jambo101 on Nov 3, 2015 15:53:03 GMT -5
I would have told her of my impending action,if she still failed to comply she would no longer be considered part of the school, her parents would be informed. How would her parents be informed? You'd walk out in the middle of class and phone them up? You'd wait until the end of class? Spend the afternoon in the principal's office discussing the situation with them if and when they showed up? You realize your strategy here boils down to "I'll her on her parents and let them discipline her if they want to." The principal would have phoned the parents and told them of the gravity of the situation. And yes i believe the parents share in many aspects of their childs education.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 3, 2015 15:54:11 GMT -5
I meant: What would you have done immediately after she defied your order to put her phone away? Given her a lecture about a suspension and then let her continue beeping away while you continued to teach the lesson? I would have found a way to get the class started on individual work, gone over and knelt on the closed side of the desk, and quietly talked to her about what was going on. I would make it clear to her that there would be a consequence in the future for her if she didn't end the phone use. The other students would be aware of what the process was because it would be already established as the way I dealt with such situations.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 3, 2015 16:06:24 GMT -5
If you'd bother to read instead of continuing to say "beat up" you'd realize there's no parents to call. But don't let that get in the way of "police brutality" rhetoric. It's amazing how many people encounter police every day and because they don't act like "dicks" live to tell about it and don't get "beat up."
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jambo101
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Post by jambo101 on Nov 3, 2015 18:41:52 GMT -5
A few questions that arent answered is how was the student disrupting the class in the first place,texting on a cell phone doesnt strike me as an activity that would disrupt a class. Also it seems the kids in the class room were utilizing their lap tops,perhaps the girl was using her cell phone because she forgot her laptop. Note the guy sitting behind the girl,he is so enrapt in what he is doing on his laptop he doesnt even look up throughout the entire incident. Odd that I cant seem to find the teachers take on this whole affair,was there a pre existing conflict between this student and the teacher?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 19:24:35 GMT -5
Kinda sad that the education system has got to the point that the only response to a child not complying with a teachers request is to have some uniformed thug enter the classroom and beat the kid up.Where did that happen? That's not what happened at this school, in this video, that's the subject of this thread...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 19:26:57 GMT -5
I don't usually say "Amen"... But... I'll Amen your Amen!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 19:30:30 GMT -5
If i were the teacher or principal i would have suspended the kid from school for a period of time and informed the parents of such an action and reasons why, if she continued to come to school she would have been denied the writing of any tests or exams and her grade marks would have been withheld until she complied to the schools satisfaction. The resorting to beating the kid up because she wont comply to a teachers demands speaks to a school system that has become morally bankrupt. You seem to be confusing this situation with another situation somewhere else. The kid here wasn't "beaten up". She was forcibly removed because she refused all reasonable attempts (being asked several times by several people) to get her to leave.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 19:33:59 GMT -5
I would have told her of my impending action,if she still failed to comply she would no longer be considered part of the school, her parents would be informed. How would her parents be informed? You'd walk out in the middle of class and phone them up? You'd wait until the end of class? Spend the afternoon in the principal's office discussing the situation with them if and when they showed up? You realize your strategy here boils down to " I'll her on her parents and let them discipline her if they want to." In your "your strategy boils down to" comment, you forgot: "and I'll let the rest of the kids in class know that they can get away with whatever they want, and I'll try and punish them later... if the parents will let me."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 19:37:01 GMT -5
I meant: What would you have done immediately after she defied your order to put her phone away? Given her a lecture about a suspension and then let her continue beeping away while you continued to teach the lesson? I would have found a way to get the class started on individual work, gone over and knelt on the closed side of the desk, and quietly talked to her about what was going on. I would make it clear to her that there would be a consequence in the future for her if she didn't end the phone use. The other students would be aware of what the process was because it would be already established as the way I dealt with such situations.Why not "Follow the rules (or get them changed, but do so in an acceptable manner, without disrupting class time) or there will be consequences that you may not like" (which, by the way, was AMPLY demonstrated, and the kids would have learned IF the school board and police department hadn't wrongly backed down).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 19:41:05 GMT -5
A few questions that arent answered is how was the student disrupting the class in the first place,texting on a cell phone doesnt strike me as an activity that would disrupt a class.(1) Also it seems the kids in the class room were utilizing their lap tops,perhaps the girl was using her cell phone because she forgot her laptop.(2) Note the guy sitting behind the girl,he is so enrapt in what he is doing on his laptop he doesnt even look up throughout the entire incident. Odd that I cant seem to find the teachers take on this whole affair,was there a pre existing conflict between this student and the teacher? 1> Because it's a rule violation that takes time out of the teacher's lesson to point out "You know phones are not allowed, put it away" (and the the subsequent refusal, and then the discussion of punishment that followed, et cetera) 2> Sucks to be her if that's the case... doesn't it. Maybe next time she should not forget her laptop (if that was the case, and she has one). Maybe I'm confused, but last time I checked, a phone is NOT a laptop. So even if laptops are allowed, it's irrelevant.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Nov 3, 2015 21:43:19 GMT -5
Do you even entertain the possibility that two wrongs do not make a right?
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Nov 3, 2015 21:47:24 GMT -5
You know your peers say things like, "bust her head with a flashlight", shoot her, light her up with a taser, etc. You on board with that? I want to know. Where is the limit of force- or are you saying 'fuck it' treat teenagers like adult criminals?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 21:56:01 GMT -5
Do you even entertain the possibility that two wrongs do not make a right? I have no problem with the "two wrongs don't make a right" concept. Matter of fact, I firmly believe in it. There was only one "wrong" here though... the girl and her obstinate stubborn refusal to follow reasonable class rules and reasonable requests to leave the class... until SHE escalated it to the point forcible removal was the only remaining option.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 22:03:57 GMT -5
You know your peers say things like, "bust her head with a flashlight", shoot her, light her up with a taser, etc. You on board with that? I want to know. Where is the limit of force- or are you saying 'fuck it' treat teenagers like adult criminals? I'm saying treat people that are old enough to understand the concept of following reasonable direction as if they are old enough to understand the concept of reasonable direction. Don't use force until all other REASONABLE avenues have been exhausted... which is what they did in this instance. Once force is introduced someone WON'T be happy (usually the one the force is used against)... but what really are the REASONABLE options? >> Clear the classroom? Nope, not reasonable, because it sets a bad example for other would-be troublemakers. >> Just "let it go"? Nope. Same reason as previous >> Carry her, desk and all, out of the classroom? Nope. WAY more "disruptive" than just grabbing her should have been (plus, what did the desk do? It was just minding it's own business doing what it was supposed to do. No reason to take her bratty behavior out on an innocent desk). >> Call parents? Nope. In her case... what parents? Even if parents were an option... what are parents going to do AT THAT MOMENT? Nothing. They aren't there. Nothing they CAN do.
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