thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 14, 2015 13:01:18 GMT -5
Why not? Some of those people are very unhappy and some can never find the right medication or stay on a management plan. Why do we force people to stay alive if every day is miserable?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 14, 2015 13:02:45 GMT -5
There are certainly worse ways! I'd like to OD on chocolate!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 14, 2015 13:03:57 GMT -5
Why not? Some of those people are very unhappy and some can never find the right medication or stay on a management plan. Why do we force people to stay alive if every day is miserable? That I'm not sure about. Right now I'm depressed. I know why I am. I also don't see any future where there's a way out of it. But I'm hopeful there will be.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 14, 2015 13:03:56 GMT -5
As many other hospital systems are being bought up by religious affiliates, this is going to only get more difficult because I believe one of the major hospital chains in Seattle was recently bought up by another Catholic entity
CHI by any chance? They are trying to buy up all the hospitals here and prevent women from having access to birth control and other procedures. There are several pending lawsuits where they allowed women to nearly bleed to death rather than intervene during a miscarriage b/c it was "God's will". Google says Providence, another Catholic hospital. This is where I had all my surgeries done and I had fantastic care. catholicwatch.org/providence-acquisition-of-swedish-medical-one-year-later/
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 14, 2015 13:07:15 GMT -5
I like that and their stance on immigration. I wonder how they'd feel about someone coming to "visit" and not going home but being buried or cremated there?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 14, 2015 13:13:51 GMT -5
Why not? Some of those people are very unhappy and some can never find the right medication or stay on a management plan. Why do we force people to stay alive if every day is miserable? That I'm not sure about. Right now I'm depressed. I know why I am. I also don't see any future where there's a way out of it. But I'm hopeful there will be. Are you suicidal? If you had the.option to die, would you take it? I am not saying that every person with any kind of mental illness should be taken out, I am saying that people who suffer from significant problems that have not found any relief, and they live their life in a state of paranoia or anger and are significantly unhappy, and they really want to be done with the unwinnable fight should be given the option. Suicide.is always an option, we can make it less painful for everyone.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 14, 2015 13:24:42 GMT -5
Mother had her wishes written into her Living Will. All her end-of-life documentation contained exactly what she wanted done under several sets of circumstances. Dementia was included. I had durable POA, so she knew her wishes would be foremost and I'd fight Godzilla, if necessary, to be sure they were honored. All her paperwork was notarized and witnessed by her attorney. Fortunately, she had short bouts of memory loss and confusion, but it didn't progress and she was lucid more than not, so we didn't have to face that situation. Here, of course, euthanasia is not allowed. South Carolina will, sooner or later, drag itself into the 21st century, but it's going to take quite awhile, I'm afraid.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 14, 2015 13:28:05 GMT -5
That I'm not sure about. Right now I'm depressed. I know why I am. I also don't see any future where there's a way out of it. But I'm hopeful there will be. Are you suicidal? If you had the.option to die, would you take it? I am not saying that every person with any kind of mental illness should be taken out, I am saying that people who suffer from significant problems that have not found any relief, and they live their life in a state of paranoia or anger and are significantly unhappy, and they really want to be done with the unwinnable fight should be given the option. Suicide.is always an option, we can make it less painful for everyone.I agree, especially with the bolded. If someone is hell-bent on ending his or her own life, there's not much anyone can do to stop it. Most of the more common ways to DIY are very messy and traumatic for those who end up finding the body. I don't think legalizing suicide would result in a noticeable uptick in depressive suicides, but even if so, it would probably be better for the surviving family members.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 14, 2015 14:11:25 GMT -5
... I don't think someone who is perfectly healthy physically but has chronic MI issues ought to be a candidate for suicide. ... I don't think that someone who is perfectly healthy mentally ought to decide for a person dealing with chronic MI issues whether they ought to be a candidate for continued existence.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 14, 2015 14:46:05 GMT -5
That I'm not sure about. Right now I'm depressed. I know why I am. I also don't see any future where there's a way out of it. But I'm hopeful there will be. Are you suicidal? If you had the.option to die, would you take it? I am not saying that every person with any kind of mental illness should be taken out, I am saying that people who suffer from significant problems that have not found any relief, and they live their life in a state of paranoia or anger and are significantly unhappy, and they really want to be done with the unwinnable fight should be given the option. Suicide.is always an option, we can make it less painful for everyone. No, but there are times when I think it's the only way of escaping.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 14, 2015 15:08:42 GMT -5
... I don't think someone who is perfectly healthy physically but has chronic MI issues ought to be a candidate for suicide. ... I don't think that someone who is perfectly healthy mentally ought to decide for a person dealing with chronic MI issues whether they ought to be a candidate for continued existence. Hmm, well, I haven't thought about it that way. I guess my experience with MH issues is with my grandmother, who was depressed and nearly catatonic for 14 years. She lived in a mental health home (this was back in the 60's). As a small child, I never saw her at all. Then sometime in the 70's they came up with new medicines for depressed people and she was back. Since I didn't know her before, I don't know if she was the same as she was before her 'episode', but she was pretty much the standard grandma, making cookies, gardening, etc. So I guess, in my mind, mental health issues are always something that can be fixed with the right meds (as long as people stay on their meds). However, not having much experience with MH issues, I shouldn't guess what it would be like to have chronic MH issues. I do think, however, that if someone does choose that route, the next of kin should be notified. In the case of this woman, she had a falling out with her son and daughter, and had broken up with a boyfriend not long before, and decided no one loved her anymore and she wanted to die. Her son felt like he could have reconciled with her and encouraged her, if he knew she was suicidal, but he didn't get the chance, and he had a lot of guilt over that. That raises another class of people - drug addicts. If someone can't or won't get sober and would rather kill themselves than try rehab again, should we let them? Or allow them to continue living under bridges until they either OD, get murdered or die from exposure?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 14, 2015 15:15:20 GMT -5
... That raises another class of people - drug addicts. If someone can't or won't get sober and would rather kill themselves than try rehab again, should we let them? Or allow them to continue living under bridges until they either OD, get murdered or die from exposure? Seems it should be allow them to kill themselves or force them to continue living under bridges until they either OD, get murdered or die from exposure? (Or do we force them into rehab?)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 14, 2015 15:22:10 GMT -5
Personally, I feel like each person has a right to live, or not live their own life. I don't feel like it's up to me to decide what they should do with that life. There are, indeed, those who simply cannot be helped. Medications just don't work for them, even if they take them. ECT sometimes works, but it's often temporary. If everything has been tried and nothing has been successful, I can understand the desire of such people to just put their misery to an end. It must be dreadful to live that way.
The woman you're talking about sounds as though she's suffering from situational depression rather than chronic, clinical depression. Situational depression can be treated. The passage of time, coupled with therapy, a good support system and, sometimes, temporary medications usually help.
Drug addicts and alcoholics don't usually want to suicide. They do sometimes, but not for the most part. If, however, they've tried rehab multiple times and haven't been able to beat the addiction, it would probably be a lot easier on them if euthanasia was available. Liver failure, kidney failure, and the other medical conditions that result from the abuse of drugs and alcohol are certainly no humane way to end a life, just as starving under a bridge isn't.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 14, 2015 15:28:35 GMT -5
... That raises another class of people - drug addicts. If someone can't or won't get sober and would rather kill themselves than try rehab again, should we let them? Or allow them to continue living under bridges until they either OD, get murdered or die from exposure? Seems it should be allow them to kill themselves or force them to continue living under bridges until they either OD, get murdered or die from exposure? (Or do we force them into rehab?) Hard question. I'm not an expert on drug addiction, either, but I think if the addict isn't really interested in getting clean, rehab won't work. At best he might cycle in and out of rehab over and over. Not a fan of letting people bleed to death in the weeds, though, either, because they refused to get sober. So I guess I'm saying I don't know.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 14, 2015 15:39:31 GMT -5
Seems it should be allow them to kill themselves or force them to continue living under bridges until they either OD, get murdered or die from exposure? (Or do we force them into rehab?) Hard question. I'm not an expert on drug addiction, either, but I think if the addict isn't really interested in getting clean, rehab won't work. At best he might cycle in and out of rehab over and over. Not a fan of letting people bleed to death in the weeds, though, either, because they refused to get sober. So I guess I'm saying I don't know. Having had such people delivered to my ICU for care, I've had more experience with this than I ever could have wanted. It's pretty horrible. There are things I'll never be able to wipe from my mind.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 14, 2015 15:49:50 GMT -5
Hard question. I'm not an expert on drug addiction, either, but I think if the addict isn't really interested in getting clean, rehab won't work. At best he might cycle in and out of rehab over and over. Not a fan of letting people bleed to death in the weeds, though, either, because they refused to get sober. So I guess I'm saying I don't know. Having had such people delivered to my ICU for care, I've had more experience with this than I ever could have wanted. It's pretty horrible. There are things I'll never be able to wipe from my mind. Since you have experience with them, would you say that most of them would like to go to rehab, but they have no money or insurance to cover it, or would you say they just want to continue in their addiction and to be left alone? From what I can tell, a month or so in rehab isn't enough. 90 days seems to be a minimum, 6 months to a year optimum, but if you're a drug addict (and not still covered under your parent's insurance) who would pay for that? I know there must be some beds at public facilities but are there enough and are they long term enough to really get them clean? I guess what I'm asking is if we devoted enough money to providing rehab for these people, would we be able to salvage a lot more of them?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 14, 2015 15:56:40 GMT -5
Having had such people delivered to my ICU for care, I've had more experience with this than I ever could have wanted. It's pretty horrible. There are things I'll never be able to wipe from my mind. Since you have experience with them, would you say that most of them would like to go to rehab, but they have no money or insurance to cover it, or would you say they just want to continue in their addiction and to be left alone? From what I can tell, a month or so in rehab isn't enough. 90 days seems to be a minimum, 6 months to a year optimum, but if you're a drug addict (and not still covered under your parent's insurance) who would pay for that? I know there must be some beds at public facilities but are there enough and are they long term enough to really get them clean? I guess what I'm asking is if we devoted enough money to providing rehab for these people, would we be able to salvage a lot more of them? In my experience, rehab is usually available; although, there are exceptions depending upon where you are. Most I've run into who are at the stage of chronic addiction have been in and out of rehab over years. It just doesn't take over the long haul. They're not willing to give up whatever it is they think they gain by continuing the use of their drug of choice. They're also not willing to give up what they think of as a support system - the friends they've made who share their "passion." They don't want to be sick. They don't want to be in the hospital. They don't want to be under a bridge, or freezing in the woods. However, even more than they dread that it appears they dread not having that which they've come to depend on. It's sad.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 14, 2015 16:13:46 GMT -5
I have a friend who would say that he had been drug free for "X" years and relapsed once or twice a year. He would clarify that his addiction was to negative thought processes. His past drug use was just one of the ways that he had "dealt" with those negative thought processes in the past. He indicated he had learned less self destructive ways to deal with them. I have a step son who is a user. Drugs are just one of the things that he uses. There have been points in his life when he has been satisfied to only use those around him. They have never been able to be enough so he has always added drugs back into the mix.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 14, 2015 16:20:20 GMT -5
As many other hospital systems are being bought up by religious affiliates, this is going to only get more difficult because I believe one of the major hospital chains in Seattle was recently bought up by another Catholic entity
CHI by any chance? They are trying to buy up all the hospitals here and prevent women from having access to birth control and other procedures. There are several pending lawsuits where they allowed women to nearly bleed to death rather than intervene during a miscarriage b/c it was "God's will". I read this news item this morning. ACLU demands Catholic hospital provide emergency procedure for pregnant woman with brain tumorThe American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan sent a demand letter to a Catholic hospital in Michigan on behalf of a pregnant woman with a life-threatening brain tumor who was denied a request to get her tubes tied at the time of her scheduled C-section next month. Jessica Mann, who is 34 weeks pregnant, was denied the procedure by Genesys Hospital because of religiously based rules that dictate hospital policy. Mann’s doctor highly recommends that she has no further children due to the strain the pregnancy will pose to her health because of her brain tumor. Although her doctor requested a medical exception to the general prohibition on sterilization procedures at Genesys a few months ago, the woman was just informed that the request would not be granted. Having a tubal after Mann recovers from the C-section in several weeks is also not recommended because that would also require another round of life-threatening full anesthesia and surgery. "Although everyone has a right to practice their religion as they see fit, religion cannot be used to harm others, which is what is happening here,” said Brooke Tucker, attorney at the ACLU of Michigan. “Jessica Mann and every person who goes into the hospital seeking medical care should not have to worry that religious beliefs rather than medical judgment will dictate what care they receive.” Genesys Hospital is part of Ascension Health, the largest Catholic healthcare system in the country. The facility is governed by religious rules called the Ethical and Religious Directives, which are written by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and that classify common reproductive health procedures as "intrinsically evil.” Rest of article here; link
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 14, 2015 16:26:59 GMT -5
I am betting those are the same people. That's exactly what the directives are at the hospital chain here. My mom works for them and after the takeover has warned every woman she knows to stay far far away from them.
They are losing doctors in droves b/c of this and the fact they require everyone to pray daily. It's claimed you can pray to whatever diety you want but since it's a daily lead prayer guess which religion is used?
I guess they mean you can fill in the blank in your head but don't you dare say it out loud in their precious Catholic community.
Methodist and Nebraska Med are having a field day poaching top notch doctors.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 14, 2015 17:23:22 GMT -5
And I would be okay with that if it became law. But I have to ask: who makes the decision it is time to euthanize the patient? The patient may just want to live when they have their lucid moments, and they do have lucid moments for muvh of the time. Terrie Schiavo is a whole different matter. What the politicians did to her was criminal. This is why you would have to make your wishes known years in advance, before you start going down the dementia/alzheimers path. Since my dad died from Alzheimers (nightmare) and my mom has dementia (Also a nightmare) my chances of also having that happen are better than most, unless I die from something else first. So I plan on updating my Living Will to include instructions about when I should be allowed to just go to sleep permanently, so my DH or son won't have to make that decision. Hopefully medicine will have advanced to the point that it will honor my wishes. I confess this makes me fairly hostile, when I visit my doctor and he suggests I could make some lifestyle changes so I could live longer - what the hell do I want to be 80 for? 80 is the age that both my mom and dad became unable to care for themselves, although my dad lived 3 years longer and my mom is still here at 86. 80 is apparently the expiration date for our family. I pray every night I fall off a cliff at 78. That actually isn't so far fetched - while hiking a couple years ago, standing on a narrow path overlooking a beautiful water fall, I got so tickled when my DH slipped and fell in the mud (taking out a rododendron sapling on the way) that I almost hyperventilated and fell into the ravine. Fortunately the thought of death made me stop laughing - but what an awesome way to go, when the time comes, laughing hysterically while falling into a gorgeous waterfall. I'm glad I'm not the only person who doesn't want to live really long. If I'm still alive at 85, I'm taking the blue pill.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 14, 2015 17:23:40 GMT -5
I like that and their stance on immigration. I wonder how they'd feel about someone coming to "visit" and not going home but being buried or cremated there? I don't know about cremation, but you can't be buried there, at least not permanently. Not enough space to be wasting it on graveyards. That makes a lot of sense actually.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 14, 2015 17:32:12 GMT -5
This is why you would have to make your wishes known years in advance, before you start going down the dementia/alzheimers path. Since my dad died from Alzheimers (nightmare) and my mom has dementia (Also a nightmare) my chances of also having that happen are better than most, unless I die from something else first. So I plan on updating my Living Will to include instructions about when I should be allowed to just go to sleep permanently, so my DH or son won't have to make that decision. Hopefully medicine will have advanced to the point that it will honor my wishes. I confess this makes me fairly hostile, when I visit my doctor and he suggests I could make some lifestyle changes so I could live longer - what the hell do I want to be 80 for? 80 is the age that both my mom and dad became unable to care for themselves, although my dad lived 3 years longer and my mom is still here at 86. 80 is apparently the expiration date for our family. I pray every night I fall off a cliff at 78. That actually isn't so far fetched - while hiking a couple years ago, standing on a narrow path overlooking a beautiful water fall, I got so tickled when my DH slipped and fell in the mud (taking out a rododendron sapling on the way) that I almost hyperventilated and fell into the ravine. Fortunately the thought of death made me stop laughing - but what an awesome way to go, when the time comes, laughing hysterically while falling into a gorgeous waterfall. I'm glad I'm not the only person who doesn't want to live really long. If I'm still alive at 85, I'm taking the blue pill. What's the blue pill?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 14, 2015 19:19:07 GMT -5
I'm glad I'm not the only person who doesn't want to live really long. If I'm still alive at 85, I'm taking the blue pill. What's the blue pill? I thought it was the death pill in The Matrix.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 14, 2015 19:28:54 GMT -5
I was reasonably sure it wasn't Viagra.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 14, 2015 19:50:08 GMT -5
My Mother is Dutch. The Netherlands is one of the countries that allows it in the case of severe depression. In some ways the Dutch have a very libertarian philosophy- you can do what you darned well please, as long as you are hurting no one else.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 14, 2015 19:54:14 GMT -5
I was reasonably sure it wasn't Viagra. I was wondering why MJ wanted to take Viagra at 85 let alone take Viagra, period.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 14, 2015 20:23:49 GMT -5
LOL, Tennesseer! I love Holland and the Dutch! Always enjoyed visiting friends there, or just winging it while there on business. It's really a lot of fun and the people you meet are friendly and happy to show you around. The food is good, too!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 14, 2015 20:44:27 GMT -5
LOL, Tennesseer! I love Holland and the Dutch! Always enjoyed visiting friends there, or just winging it while there on business. It's really a lot of fun and the people you meet are friendly and happy to show you around. The food is good, too! As silly as the movies are, I have always been a big fan of Austin Powers movies. I enjoyed the Netherlands and its citizens back in the very early 70s while visiting 'Europe On Five Dollars A Day'.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 14, 2015 20:47:07 GMT -5
LOL, Tennesseer! I love Holland and the Dutch! Always enjoyed visiting friends there, or just winging it while there on business. It's really a lot of fun and the people you meet are friendly and happy to show you around. The food is good, too! As silly as the movies are, I have always been a big fan of Austin Powers movies. I enjoyed the Netherlands and its citizens back in the very early 70s while visiting 'Europe On Five Dollars A Day'. I'd always heard the northern Europeans were rather cold and unapproachable. I never found it so. Even the Swiss and Austrians, for all their reputation, weren't that way, at all. If you made an effort they happily met you half-way.
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