Bill Cosby admitted to drugging women he wanted sex with

[swamp]

Jul 9, 2015 15:07:52 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Did anybody mention the many pictures of your privates often taken by a guy?  There was a report about a year or so? where a cop was passing such pictures around to his buddies.  Good times!  Where can I go to have all of this fun? 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

 

Spread your legs wide for the camera!!!

And your local ER should be able to accommodate you.

To be fair, you get the same type of treatment if you go to the ER with an assault injury, but for some reason, it's not nearly as embarrassing to show your bruised eye to the nurse rather than your bruised labia.

[mmhmm]

Jul 9, 2015 15:10:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 9, 2015 14:57:06 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Not that I know of, dj. Because of the nature of this procedure, as few people as possible are allowed anywhere near the victim. Our assigned rape kit nurse drew blood for the lab so the victim didn't have to deal with a phlebotomist from the lab. Everything possible is done by the assigned rape kit nurse to avoid having what might seem like a herd of strangers re-violating the poor woman. It's a very long and involved process that we do all we can to make as bearable as possible by providing all the privacy we're capable of providing.


HERE is a link to an article on sexual assault forensics. If I find anything better, I'll link it here.

i didn't mean the "evidence gathering" part- i just meant IN GENERAL. 

I don't really know the answer to that question, dj. It might be a hospital in your area has availability of classes to educate people on this subject. I don't know of any here.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 9, 2015 15:01:16 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I hate being that cynical...

You noticed?

"No matter what anyone does....there is always going to be another waiting in the weeds."

Sweet snowy leopards. If that's your attitude towards reporting rape, our seeing eye-to-eye on things is even more hopeless than it usually is.

Maybe there shall come a day when I too shall emerge from my bubble to embrace your assessment, but it is not this day.

[swamp]

Jul 9, 2015 15:11:00 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:07:52 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Did anybody mention the many pictures of your privates often taken by a guy?  There was a report about a year or so? where a cop was passing such pictures around to his buddies.  Good times!  Where can I go to have all of this fun? 

Our rape kit nurses took those pictures and they were never male, if the victim was female. All the evidence is turned over to the crime lab. If there's a leak there, somebody needs to be fired!

The cops get the pictures. Then the DA. Then the Defense attorney. And they're shown at grand jury. and again at the trial.

[mmhmm]

Jul 9, 2015 15:11:38 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Virgil....I don't think anything has been said here that people don't already know. It's not a secret. I do understand what you are saying and I don't disagree the process discourages women to report rapes. That's what we've been saying. But...outlining it here isn't telling people something they don't already know.

It's also important to note, I think, that the rape kit exam isn't the only thing that encourages women not to report. Often, it's the warnings they get when the perp is finished with them that accomplish that.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I wish it wasn't true either. I'm just not Pollyanna anymore. I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

[mmhmm]

Jul 9, 2015 15:13:39 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:11:00 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Our rape kit nurses took those pictures and they were never male, if the victim was female. All the evidence is turned over to the crime lab. If there's a leak there, somebody needs to be fired!

The cops get the pictures. Then the DA. Then the Defense attorney. And they're shown at grand jury. and again at the trial.

<shudder> And we wonder why?  Why?  Really? 

[djAdvocate]

Jul 9, 2015 15:12:20 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:10:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i didn't mean the "evidence gathering" part- i just meant IN GENERAL. 

I don't really know the answer to that question, dj. It might be a hospital in your area has availability of classes to educate people on this subject. I don't know of any here.

you've got mail!

[swamp]

Jul 9, 2015 15:15:01 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:13:39 GMT -5 swamp said:

The cops get the pictures. Then the DA. Then the Defense attorney. And they're shown at grand jury. and again at the trial.

<shudder> And we wonder why?  Why?  Really? 

I would hope that all those people are professional enough not to share the pictures, but I've been disappointed.

[The Captain]

Jul 9, 2015 14:50:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 9, 2015 14:30:22 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I've seen these victims in the ER - little puddles of women, often bloody and disoriented - terrified! Completing a rape kit takes hours - hours of reliving the horror and having your body literally taken over by yet another person. This is how it seems to the victim. Specially trained personnel are used to complete rape kits but that doesn't make the experience any easier for the victim. Rape isn't an experience that only happens to your body. It happens to your mind. It happens to your heart. It happens to your spirit. It is total immersion in horror. It's so very easy to say "Just report it" when you've never experienced it, or seen someone in the immediate aftermath of it. You have no idea. None.

mmhmm- i know this sounds crazy, but i want to "experience" that.  is there someplace i can volunteer so that i can bear witness to this horror?  as i have said before, it is pretty much impossible for me to appreciate it at a distance.  but i don't want that distance.  i don't want to admonish swamp for not reporting.  i want to understand WHY this happens at the visceral level.

No you don't.  And I hope you never will.

As good as your intentions may be, unless it happens to you (and I don't wish that on anyone) you will never know why the victim acts the way they do.

I've danced around this.  I was barely 17 when I started college (skipped a grade).  I had one drink at a party and woke up confused with a guy on top of me.  I was sick and nauseated and didn't know what happened. I have absoluely no memories of what happened after I had that first drink.

I know enough of myself to know I didn't drink myself into oblivion but couldn't understand what happened.  My dorm mates convinced me I was wrong, didn't know my limits, etc. They helped me (still dazed and disconnected) back to the dorms.

My roommate was dating the guy's frat brother.  She convinced me not to go to the authorities because it would ruin his life and no one could prove I didn't  give consent. Hell, I couldn't remember what happened so how could I be sure?

I was friends with one of the campus security women (I gave her coffee from the student center I worked in, we'd talk when business was slow).  I asked her if I should report it to the police.  She told me what I'd go through and advised me to let it go.

So I did.  I'm pretty sure if I had tried to persue charges I wouldn't have been emotionally strong enough to finish college and deal with this. And I'm still sorry I didn't report it.

The sad thing, no one asked my age.  Even with nothing else he would have been convicted for statutory rape at the time.  It was about 10 years later I saw a dateline and realized I'd probably been roofied.

My experience was nowhere near as bad as some and I still get nauseated thinking about it 30+ years later, and I am not a weak willed person.
 
and now I'm out or I'll fall apart at work.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 9, 2015 15:16:33 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:15:01 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

<shudder> And we wonder why?  Why?  Really? 

I would hope that all those people are professional enough not to share the pictures, but I've been disappointed.

and i thought i couldn't get any more ill today......ok.  i need to go do some work. 

thanks to all that contributed, here.  it is not your responsibility to educate me/us, but i appreciate it.   
hopefully the sharing was helpful to you, as well.

[midjd]

Virgil, earlier you said you had strong views on the subject. I believe you. So how can you "guarantee" what someone who has no preconceived notions will take away from the posts on the actual reporting procedure? You're no better able to judge that than anyone on the other side of the argument.

And since 100 people can read something and each view it differently, I would find it very unlikely that everyone reading would come away with the same thoughts, even if "everyone" had no prior experience with or knowledge of the rape reporting process.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 9, 2015 15:19:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jul 9, 2015 14:50:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

mmhmm- i know this sounds crazy, but i want to "experience" that.  is there someplace i can volunteer so that i can bear witness to this horror?  as i have said before, it is pretty much impossible for me to appreciate it at a distance.  but i don't want that distance.  i don't want to admonish swamp for not reporting.  i want to understand WHY this happens at the visceral level.

No you don't.  And I hope you never will.

As good as your intentions may be, unless it happens to you (and I don't wish that on anyone) you will never know why the victim acts the way they do.

I've danced around this.  I was barely 17 when I started college (skipped a grade).  I had one drink at a party and woke up confused with a guy on top of me.  I was sick and nauseated and didn't know what happened. I have absoluely no memories of what happened after I had that first drink.

I know enough of myself to know I didn't drink myself into oblivion but couldn't understand what happened.  My dorm mates convinced me I was wrong, didn't know my limits, etc. They helped me (still dazed and disconnected) back to the dorms.

My roommate was dating the guy's frat brother.  She convinced me not to go to the authorities because it would ruin his life and no one could prove I didn't  give consent. Hell, I couldn't remember what happened so how could I be sure?

I was friends with one of the campus security women (I gave her coffee from the student center I worked in, we'd talk when business was slow).  I asked her if I should report it to the police.  She told me what I'd go through and advised me to let it go.

So I did.  I'm pretty sure if I had tried to persue charges I wouldn't have been emotionally strong enough to finish college and deal with this. And I'm still sorry I didn't report it.

The sad thing, no one asked my age.  Even with nothing else he would have been convicted for statutory rape at the time.  It was about 10 years later I saw a dateline and realized I'd probably been roofied.

My experience was nowhere near as bad as some and I still get nauseated thinking about it 30+ years later, and I am not a weak willed person.
 
and now I'm out or I'll fall apart at work.

oh god.  i am SO SORRY, Cap. 

[Peace Of Mind]

Yeah, I can't do this any more either.  I'm sticking with the cat thread.

The Captain  That is so horrible especially when friends are taking the side of the perpetrator. I am so sorry this also happened to you.   (((Hugs)))

[swamp]

Jul 9, 2015 15:23:26 GMT -5 midjd said:

Virgil, earlier you said you had strong views on the subject. I believe you. So how can you "guarantee" what someone who has no preconceived notions will take away from the topic? You're no better able to judge that than anyone on the other side of the argument.

because Virgil knows best?

[Deleted]

The argument Virgil  is making that women should report, is that based on a moral requirement?  If so what is the moral principle or philosophy that supports it?  I think it could fail or pass utilitarianism, depending on the situation.  That is the only thing I can think of. I know we can not talk religion, but a quick answer, maybe, is it scriptural?

[midjd]

And I'm sorry to Captain and Vonna. It is very brave of you to share your stories. 

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 15:24:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:23:26 GMT -5 midjd said:

Virgil, earlier you said you had strong views on the subject. I believe you. So how can you "guarantee" what someone who has no preconceived notions will take away from the topic? You're no better able to judge that than anyone on the other side of the argument.

because Virgil knows best?

I like Virgil, he is one of my favorite posters to read.  But why do people argue with him when he is on the other side of a painful subject?  His views and intransigence are predictable.  No offense meant to anyone and please delete if that is a wrong thing to say.

[mmhmm]

The Captain, thanks for sharing that painful time here. Doing so, I'm sure, doesn't make it any easier - even as a memory. That kind of trauma stays with you for a lifetime. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

I don't think anybody is "arguing", hickle. People are just presenting alternative points of view. Virgil is one of my favorite posters also although, as he points out, we rarely see eye to eye. 

[swamp]

Jul 9, 2015 15:31:55 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:24:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

because Virgil knows best?

I like Virgil, he is one of my favorite posters to read.  But why do people argue with him when he is on the other side of a painful subject?  His views and intransigence are predictable.  No offense meant to anyone and please delete if that is a wrong thing to say.

Am I supposed to agree with him?

Sometimes I find his posts really insensitive, clueless, and condescending.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 15:34:16 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I don't think anybody is "arguing", hickle. People are just presenting alternative points of view. Virgil is one of my favorite posters also although, as he points out, we rarely see eye to eye. 

I guess it is a matter of perspective.   thanks

Am I supposed to agree with him?


Sometimes I find his posts really insensitive, clueless, and condescending.

No.  I really like reading your posts.  I think you bring specific experience to subjects like this.

[Jaguar]

Jul 9, 2015 15:29:58 GMT -5 midjd said:

And I'm sorry to Captain and Vonna. It is very brave of you to share your stories. 

I'm extremely sorry too ((( BIG HUGS )))

[The Captain]

Jul 9, 2015 15:32:46 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

The Captain, thanks for sharing that painful time here. Doing so, I'm sure, doesn't make it any easier - even as a memory. That kind of trauma stays with you for a lifetime. 

Yea, well some people don't understand why it's so under-reported.

And in some ways I'm truly grateful there are pockets of innocence left out there.  At least that's what I'll call it.

Some people can count on the support of their friends and family, others can't.  So you do the best you can with yourself.

When I finally told my mother her response was that I shouldn't have been at the party.  In group counseling I discovered it was not uncommon for friends and family to find ways the victim should have been able to avoid it.  Not quite blame but...

And to this day I still hate using the term "victim" or "survivor" when referring to myself. 

The thing is there will always be predators out there.  I don't know what is worse, being prey or learning how to think like a predator.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 9, 2015 14:18:08 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 9, 2015 13:53:40 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

As a lawyer, I don't know if Swamp has ever dealt with a rape case in court. But if she has, I imagine Swamp is well aware what the victim goes through in the court system.

I have cross examined rape victims. I hate doing it.

I thought you might have.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 9, 2015 16:47:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jul 9, 2015 15:32:46 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

The Captain, thanks for sharing that painful time here. Doing so, I'm sure, doesn't make it any easier - even as a memory. That kind of trauma stays with you for a lifetime. 

Yea, well some people don't understand why it's so under-reported.

And in some ways I'm truly grateful there are pockets of innocence left out there.  At least that's what I'll call it.

Some people can count on the support of their friends and family, others can't.  So you do the best you can with yourself.

When I finally told my mother her response was that I shouldn't have been at the party.  In group counseling I discovered it was not uncommon for friends and family to find ways the victim should have been able to avoid it.  Not quite blame but...

And to this day I still hate using the term "victim" or "survivor" when referring to myself. 

The thing is there will always be predators out there.  I don't know what is worse, being prey or learning how to think like a predator.

not to be clueless again, but is that the way MOST women live?  with the idea that ANY man out there could be a perp?

[mmhmm]

Jul 9, 2015 17:03:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 9, 2015 16:47:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Yea, well some people don't understand why it's so under-reported.

And in some ways I'm truly grateful there are pockets of innocence left out there.  At least that's what I'll call it.

Some people can count on the support of their friends and family, others can't.  So you do the best you can with yourself.

When I finally told my mother her response was that I shouldn't have been at the party.  In group counseling I discovered it was not uncommon for friends and family to find ways the victim should have been able to avoid it.  Not quite blame but...

And to this day I still hate using the term "victim" or "survivor" when referring to myself. 

The thing is there will always be predators out there.  I don't know what is worse, being prey or learning how to think like a predator.

not to be clueless again, but is that the way MOST women live?  with the idea that ANY man out there could be a perp?

1 out of every 6 American women have been the victim of attempted or completed rape. There's little doubt in my mind those victims probably live that way. The rest of us are, for the most part, hyper-aware because we know it could happen to us.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 9, 2015 17:03:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 9, 2015 16:47:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Yea, well some people don't understand why it's so under-reported.

And in some ways I'm truly grateful there are pockets of innocence left out there.  At least that's what I'll call it.

Some people can count on the support of their friends and family, others can't.  So you do the best you can with yourself.

When I finally told my mother her response was that I shouldn't have been at the party.  In group counseling I discovered it was not uncommon for friends and family to find ways the victim should have been able to avoid it.  Not quite blame but...

And to this day I still hate using the term "victim" or "survivor" when referring to myself. 

The thing is there will always be predators out there.  I don't know what is worse, being prey or learning how to think like a predator.

not to be clueless again, but is that the way MOST women live?  with the idea that ANY man out there could be a perp?

Any man is capable of being a rapist. The thought of raping another person does not enter the mind of the very vast majority of men (or women).

[djAdvocate]

Jul 9, 2015 17:08:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 9, 2015 17:03:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

not to be clueless again, but is that the way MOST women live?  with the idea that ANY man out there could be a perp?

1 out of every 6 American women have been the victim of attempted or completed rape. There's little doubt in my mind those victims probably live that way. The rest of us are, for the most part, hyper-aware because we know it could happen to us.

the reason i ask is that it explains a LOT of interactions i have with women.  i wouldn't hurt a fly, but many women seem genuinely afraid of me.  i always figured that it was something I was doing, but this OTHER explanation makes a lot more sense.

[mmhmm]

Jul 9, 2015 17:54:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 9, 2015 17:08:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

1 out of every 6 American women have been the victim of attempted or completed rape. There's little doubt in my mind those victims probably live that way. The rest of us are, for the most part, hyper-aware because we know it could happen to us.

the reason i ask is that it explains a LOT of interactions i have with women.  i wouldn't hurt a fly, but they seem genuinely scared.  i always figured that it was something I was doing, but this OTHER explanation makes a lot more sense.

It's a real shame it has to be this way. There are a lot of guys just like you, dj, who wouldn't hurt anyone. They're decent, caring, thoughtful people. However, when you look at the number 1 in 6 and realize that's only the tip of the iceberg since many attempts, and even completed rapes, aren't reported, you begin to see the real depth of the problem. That, coupled with the realization that women do talk to one another (especially after the initial trauma eases and they feel more able to do so), gives you good insight into why you sense that fear. It's real.