Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 7, 2015 21:28:43 GMT -5
It would be reasonable to assume I was guilty, yes. Depending on why the people were accusing me, I might well sympathize with them. For example, supposing The Captain was a shapeshifter and, in retribution for my insulting Baymax, she drugged me, drove me to the White House, hid me in a closet, shape-shifted into me, ran into the oval office and decapitated Pres. Obama, carried his head back to the closet with the SS in hot pursuit, ducked into the closet, stuck Pres. Obama's head in my hand, and shape-shifted into a mop just as I was coming around, I wouldn't blame the SS agents for shooting me into Swiss cheese even though I was nothing more than a hapless victim. Even the accused has to accept that sometimes things look so bad that it's fundamentally illogical for strangers (or in extreme cases, even friends and family members) to believe in their innocence. That doesn't mean we can lock people up without a trial, but it doesn't mean we have to pretend Mr. Cosby is innocent when speaking/writing informally either. And I thought you knew me... .
I'm much more subtle than that. Besides that's too quick and painless IMHO. If I'm seeking revenge it will...last awhile.
You know what they say: Revenge is a dish best served cold...
Carry on.
My ghost will haunt you. SAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAMSAM
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 3:58:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 21:47:38 GMT -5
I disagree. One should always hold to the standard of "if Joe Accused is 'guilty as sin', there will be proof of that guilt." Now... that proof may be a long time before it's found... but it IS out there. Maybe it's not JUST the person that believe in Justice in me... maybe it's also the Agnostic in me. Who knows. So if 100 people accused you, independently, for whatever reason, of committing a crime (even though you hadn't done anything wrong)... you'd say that you were guilty... because with 100 people saying so, you'd reasonably believe it? I mean... according to you, with 100 people, it's reasonable to assume... right? When I was in college we studied justification in regards to knowledge. I am guessing you think you do not have proper justification to say Cosby is guilty. Is that correct? If you mother or someone you respect told you something negative about her neighbor, would you believe her simply because you know she is trustworthy on this type of thing? Is that your problem with the women accusing Cosby, you do not think them trustworthy or have no knowledge of that? I think for many, including myself and apparently Virgil, the sheer number of accusations across time and seemingly with out ulterior motive is justification enough. Why is that not justification enough for you? Apologies to Virgil if I misunderstood his reasoning. If the neighbor denied the allegation (as Bill Cosby denied these allegations)? No I wouldn't believe my Mother just because she made the accusation. I would ask my Mother for proof. And she would happily provide it because she would not make the accusation unless she KNEW she could prove it. That's just the way my family works. It's not "enough" for me because allegations are not proof. They are allegations.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 3:58:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 21:51:12 GMT -5
I disagree. One should always hold to the standard of "if Joe Accused is 'guilty as sin', there will be proof of that guilt." Now... that proof may be a long time before it's found... but it IS out there. Maybe it's not JUST the person that believe in Justice in me... maybe it's also the Agnostic in me. Who knows. So if 100 people accused you, independently, for whatever reason, of committing a crime (even though you hadn't done anything wrong)... you'd say that you were guilty... because with 100 people saying so, you'd reasonably believe it? I mean... according to you, with 100 people, it's reasonable to assume... right? It would be reasonable to assume I was guilty, yes. Depending on why the people were accusing me, I might well sympathize with them. For example, supposing The Captain was a shapeshifter and, in retribution for my insulting Baymax, she drugged me, drove me to the White House, hid me in a closet, shape-shifted into me, ran into the oval office and decapitated Pres. Obama, carried his head back to the closet with the SS in hot pursuit, ducked into the closet, stuck Pres. Obama's head in my hand, and shape-shifted into a mop just as I was coming around, I wouldn't blame the SS agents for shooting me into Swiss cheese even though I was nothing more than a hapless victim. Even the accused has to accept that sometimes things look so bad that it's fundamentally illogical for strangers (or in extreme cases, even friends and family members) to believe in their innocence. That doesn't mean we can lock people up without a trial, but it doesn't mean we have to pretend Mr. Cosby is innocent when speaking/writing informally either. Obama's head in your hands is quite a bit more than simple accusations though. Remember, in my question to you there's nothing actually tying you to any crime... just the "say so" of 100 people. That's it. Just their word. NO evidence (planted or otherwise)... just their word.
|
|
Peace Of Mind
Senior Associate
[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:53:02 GMT -5
Posts: 15,554
Location: Paradise
|
Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 7, 2015 21:53:10 GMT -5
I thought he seemed like an asshole before I knew about all these allegations. He was pretentious and mean on camera enough times that I figure it is only worse in real life. I don't know if any or all of these women were raped, but at the end of the day - my opinion is totally meaningless. Thank you! Even when I was a kid watching the Cosby show I couldn't stand him. Everyone I've talked with him about always goes on about how hysterical he is and how he seems like a great guy. I never understood it. I didn't get a predator vibe from him, but he always seemed like a jackass to me. Me three! And I have no doubt he was Puddin' his Pop where it shouldn't have been while drugging these women. Too soon?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 8, 2015 3:48:48 GMT -5
It would be reasonable to assume I was guilty, yes. Depending on why the people were accusing me, I might well sympathize with them. For example, supposing The Captain was a shapeshifter and, in retribution for my insulting Baymax, she drugged me, drove me to the White House, hid me in a closet, shape-shifted into me, ran into the oval office and decapitated Pres. Obama, carried his head back to the closet with the SS in hot pursuit, ducked into the closet, stuck Pres. Obama's head in my hand, and shape-shifted into a mop just as I was coming around, I wouldn't blame the SS agents for shooting me into Swiss cheese even though I was nothing more than a hapless victim. Even the accused has to accept that sometimes things look so bad that it's fundamentally illogical for strangers (or in extreme cases, even friends and family members) to believe in their innocence. That doesn't mean we can lock people up without a trial, but it doesn't mean we have to pretend Mr. Cosby is innocent when speaking/writing informally either. Obama's head in your hands is quite a bit more than simple accusations though. Remember, in my question to you there's nothing actually tying you to any crime... just the "say so" of 100 people. That's it. Just their word. NO evidence (planted or otherwise)... just their word. True, but you've shifted from the issue of "may we rightly assume a man is guilty even if he hasn't been convicted" to "may we rightly assume a man is guilty in the absence of corroborating physical evidence". Even in the latter case, I don't consider an unqualified "no" to be a defensible proposition. I do tend towards "no" strongly. For example, swamp once indicated that it's possible to get a rape conviction based on the uncorroborated testimony of a putative victim, which I consider just plain asinine (the standard, not swamp's claim). An individual can be vindictive, deluded, crazy, mistaken, and prone to giving false testimony for any number of reasons. But when two or more witnesses/victims make a claim, it behooves us to examine whether there are reasonable ulterior motives. The probability that two individuals are both deluded, crazy, or mistaken drops off precipitously. In Mr. Cosby's case, money is unfortunately a huge motive to lie, hence my faith in his innocence persisted as long as the accusers coming forward hadn't filed police reports and were seeking monetary compensation. This is mainly because i) not filing a police report for rape--even if you don't expect the police to believe you--is negligent and cowardly, ii) I cannot conceive of wanting to take a man's money as "fair compensation" for rape, which is exactly what a civil settlement would be, and iii) if Mr. Cosby was a womanizer, it's not hard to imagine some of his one night stands thinking "look how vulnerable the man is; I bet I could claim 'rape' too and get me some huge Cosby bux; the bastard can afford it". But then women started coming forward who had filed police claims and who weren't hitting Mr. Cosby up for money, and it makes no sense for them to do so unless he genuinely wronged them. Simply put: it's not reasonable to assume that multiple unrelated women with no monetary, personal, or political motive would falsely accuse the same man of rape. It's conceivable that such a man is innocent, but so unlikely as to be untenable as a working assumption. Such is the case with Mr. Cosby.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 3:58:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 5:09:15 GMT -5
When I was in college we studied justification in regards to knowledge. I am guessing you think you do not have proper justification to say Cosby is guilty. Is that correct? If you mother or someone you respect told you something negative about her neighbor, would you believe her simply because you know she is trustworthy on this type of thing? Is that your problem with the women accusing Cosby, you do not think them trustworthy or have no knowledge of that? I think for many, including myself and apparently Virgil, the sheer number of accusations across time and seemingly with out ulterior motive is justification enough. Why is that not justification enough for you? Apologies to Virgil if I misunderstood his reasoning. If the neighbor denied the allegation (as Bill Cosby denied these allegations)? No I wouldn't believe my Mother just because she made the accusation. I would ask my Mother for proof. And she would happily provide it because she would not make the accusation unless she KNEW she could prove it. That's just the way my family works. It's not "enough" for me because allegations are not proof. They are allegations. Well thats a shame, that you would not believe someone like your mother based just on her word. I know many honest people and if they told me something, I would believe them.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,402
|
Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2015 8:13:23 GMT -5
I don't use the legal standard of innocent until proven guilty unless I am on a jury. I try to give people the benefit of doubt, but if I had to investigate and get proof for every injustice every person goes through, I wouldn't have time to do anything else. When my opinion matters, I do due diligence. In this Cosby case - absolutely nothing changes one bit if I believe these women or not.
|
|
NancysSummerSip
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 19:19:42 GMT -5
Posts: 36,325
Today's Mood: Full of piss and vinegar
Favorite Drink: Anything with ice
|
Post by NancysSummerSip on Jul 8, 2015 10:55:13 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I don't think that this new information changes much in terms of a criminal case, mostly because the statute of limitations has expired for most of the cases.
However, it may bolster the civil lawsuits against him. And perhaps Swamp or Mid can answer this one: if there is a victim or victims who were minors at the time they were assaulted by Cosby, would that eliminate the issue of the statute of limitations being expired? My very quick research says maybe; it depends on the state. Some states say that the statute of limitations for minors expires on the 18th birthday, some say it can be as long as six years after the 18th birthday.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 3:58:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 20:50:30 GMT -5
If the neighbor denied the allegation (as Bill Cosby denied these allegations)? No I wouldn't believe my Mother just because she made the accusation. I would ask my Mother for proof. And she would happily provide it because she would not make the accusation unless she KNEW she could prove it. That's just the way my family works. It's not "enough" for me because allegations are not proof. They are allegations. Well thats a shame, that you would not believe someone like your mother based just on her word. I know many honest people and if they told me something, I would believe them. You misunderstand me. I would believe her absent any denial of the neighbor. But once we get into "he said / she said", proof wins out. My whole family believes that.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 3:58:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 21:32:53 GMT -5
I'm so glad the women have been validated! Just that means so much, having most sensible people realise that Cosby's statement is a confession of his behaviour.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jul 8, 2015 22:18:27 GMT -5
It's an admission of his guilt.
Even if the statute of limitations has expired, at least any of those 30+ women who were drugged with quaaludes and sexually assaulted, can get some vindication now that he's finally owned up to it.
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Jul 9, 2015 3:45:17 GMT -5
Does not bode well for him. Agree with you Tenn...such a disapointment...don't know many who were not fans of the show and the antics of the kids and the reruns till you got to the point that you knew the lines cold... Some very clever writing... Now, have no interest at all in watching the reruns.....He has been very generouse over the years with philanthropys but even that is now lost...real downer..Surprised his wife is still with him and supporting him...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 3:58:36 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 5:04:38 GMT -5
Well thats a shame, that you would not believe someone like your mother based just on her word. I know many honest people and if they told me something, I would believe them. You misunderstand me. I would believe her absent any denial of the neighbor. But once we get into "he said / she said", proof wins out. My whole family believes that. What would you tell her? That you can't believe her because her neighbor denies it? Does reputation of someone mean nothing? I mean if someone has never lied and the other has lied to you many times, you still need proof?
|
|
moon/Laura
Administrator
Forum Owner
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:05:36 GMT -5
Posts: 10,043
Mini-Profile Text Color: f8fb10
|
Post by moon/Laura on Jul 9, 2015 5:21:04 GMT -5
The more contentious issue was whether the victims should pay a penalty for not disclosing the rapes. Why would they/should they pay a penalty? What kind of penalty? That sounds like a victim blaming statement to me.
Many women don't report rape for many different reasons: shame, don't want to re-live it, want to move on. people are quick to say 'she asked for it' so it's like putting yourself on trial. maybe they feel like they won't be believed- which would definitely be in play here because who'd want to think cosby could do that? Maybe they were threatened. So it goes unreported.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2015 8:19:19 GMT -5
The more contentious issue was whether the victims should pay a penalty for not disclosing the rapes. Why would they/should they pay a penalty? What kind of penalty? That sounds like a victim blaming statement to me.
Many women don't report rape for many different reasons: shame, don't want to re-live it, want to move on. people are quick to say 'she asked for it' so it's like putting yourself on trial. maybe they feel like they won't be believed- which would definitely be in play here because who'd want to think cosby could do that? Maybe they were threatened. So it goes unreported. Hence it was a contentious issue. I wasn't the one making it. My argument throughout the Cosby rape thread was that non-reporting of crimes constitutes civic negligence. If I'm a victim of a crime and I don't forgive the perpetrator that crime, it is my civic responsibility (as in: not something elective, but a moral/ethical requirement) to report it, in spite of personal consequences. It doesn't matter that the report may not be actionable at the time, it may not be believed, it may lead others to speculate on the factors leading up to the crime, or it may (and probably will) lead to personal blowback. Failure to report the crime is a lie of omission. It constitutes civil negligence, and is a form of cowardice. In Mr. Cosby's case, the man was able to drug and rape dozens of women over a period of four decades with total impunity as a result of his victims' collective silence. The only reason his wrongdoing came to light was because one victim filed a report and another (Ms. Bowman) had been accusing Mr. Cosby since 2002, and their charges were cited and publicized by a comedian in 2014. If they hadn't done that, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. He might well still be raping women, his public reputation unscathed and his predation totally unknown. Hence, while I've leave the issue of "should" to the philosophers and lawmakers, Mr. Cosby's later victims did pay a price for his earlier victims' collective silence. There was no warning. No mass of reports for police to look at. No circulating information, "Whatever you do, don't accept a drink from...". The latter victims paid the price of the former victims' civic negligence for over 30 years. When the whole thing unraveled in 2014, all of the victims (besides those who'd disclosed his wrongdoing in a timely fashion) paid the price for their collective silence. They ran head-on into a skeptical, confused public wondering why, if Mr. Cosby's crimes were truly as heinous as they claimed, they'd waited 15, 20, 30 or more years, well beyond the statute of limitations, to formally accuse him. Had it not been their civic responsibility to report these acts? Why had they eschewed those responsibilities? Could they be trusted now? Was their courage finally buoyed enough by the storm of controversy that they were willing to come forward, or were they simply jumping on the "sue Bill Cosby for money" bandwagon? Why the victims chose to remain silent is their business, and they have to live knowing the consequences of their choices. What I will do is pay my respects to the one victim (I believe it was Ms. Constand) who did file a police report, putting herself in harm's way in order to do the right thing.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 12:14:19 GMT -5
i think it is really important for men to understand, deeply, why these crimes are not reported.
hint: it is not because they don't happen.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Jul 9, 2015 12:41:24 GMT -5
i think it is really important for men to understand, deeply, why these crimes are not reported. hint: it is not because they don't happen. DJ - IIRC you don't like people editing your posts so I want to stress it is "important for EVERYONE to understand" why these crimes are not reported. I'm kinda in Virgil's camp in this though. Painful as it may be, if victims continue to not report these crimes that just allows the predators to continue to harm others. It also feeds into the societal perception that such things are somehow shameful to the victim and should be hidden or swept under the rug. In the past how law enforcement dealt with these types of crimes was absolutely shameful. I don't know if it's gotten better. Even with all that being said all to often it comes down to a "he said, she said" type of situation and how do you fix that?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2015 12:43:47 GMT -5
i think it is really important for men to understand, deeply, why these crimes are not reported. hint: it is not because they don't happen. I understand it just fine. It's a risk, a heartache, and an embarrassment. Doing the right thing isn't always easy. But duty is duty. Never compromise the standard. Women are not too weak or fragile to be held to that standard.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 12:51:22 GMT -5
i think it is really important for men to understand, deeply, why these crimes are not reported. hint: it is not because they don't happen. DJ - IIRC you don't like people editing your posts so I want to stress it is "important for EVERYONE to understand" why these crimes are not reported. i think women understand it just fine, as a general rule. don't you?I'm kinda in Virgil's camp in this though. Painful as it may be, if victims continue to not report these crimes that just allows the predators to continue to harm others. It also feeds into the societal perception that such things are somehow shameful to the victim and should be hidden or swept under the rug. i agree. so, given that we agree on this, we should address WHY THEY DON'T, and REMOVE THOSE BARRIERS.In the past how law enforcement dealt with these types of crimes was absolutely shameful. I don't know if it's gotten better. Even with all that being said all to often it comes down to a "he said, she said" type of situation and how do you fix that? it HAS gotten better. but not much.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 12:52:08 GMT -5
i think it is really important for men to understand, deeply, why these crimes are not reported. hint: it is not because they don't happen. I understand it just fine. It's a risk, a heartache, and an embarrassment. all of that and more.Doing the right thing isn't always easy. But duty is duty. Never compromise the standard. Women are not too weak or fragile to be held to that standard. i ain't touching that one.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 9, 2015 13:06:55 GMT -5
When a woman has been raped, the first thing to pop into her mind isn't her civic duty. Of course, it's obvious to you and me that failure to report such a crime frees the perpetrator to go on hurting others. That's a no-brainer. We also like to assume he's caught and punished - which doesn't happen all that often. What people don't understand is that when someone has been hurt the way these women were hurt, it's very difficult to think beyond surviving the next day. Yes...sometimes it take years to come to grips with what has happened and to be able to think clearly about the next step.
|
|
Peace Of Mind
Senior Associate
[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:53:02 GMT -5
Posts: 15,554
Location: Paradise
|
Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 9, 2015 13:07:45 GMT -5
This is incredibly disgusting and disturbing. I think Cosby could have found plenty of women to willingly sleep with him - money and fame will do that - but he still drugged women. Rape is not about sex. It's about control and/or humiliation. And personally - there's not enough money in the world for me to ever have slept with him. I don't like him and find him very unattractive.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Jul 9, 2015 13:08:09 GMT -5
DJ - IIRC you don't like people editing your posts so I want to stress it is "important for EVERYONE to understand" why these crimes are not reported. i think women understand it just fine, as a general rule. don't you?
I think you'd be shocked to find out this is not always the case. You hear about ruining your own life if you report it, or ruining the predators life who was "young and had a lapse in judgment". Your friends and family try to talk you out of it because they know what you'll have to relive on the witness stand.
You get more pressure to not report, than support if you choose to report.I'm kinda in Virgil's camp in this though. Painful as it may be, if victims continue to not report these crimes that just allows the predators to continue to harm others. It also feeds into the societal perception that such things are somehow shameful to the victim and should be hidden or swept under the rug. i agree. so, given that we agree on this, we should address WHY THEY DON'T, and REMOVE THOSE BARRIERS.
Because it's a very difficult crime to prove, especially in certain situations. In the past how law enforcement dealt with these types of crimes was absolutely shameful. I don't know if it's gotten better. Even with all that being said all to often it comes down to a "he said, she said" type of situation and how do you fix that? it HAS gotten better. but not much. My daughter is 12. DH and I have already had discussions and watched WWYD specials about safety and having a wingman in social situations. Never let your drink out of your sight. Never go somewhere with someone unless you have a trusted friend with you and never let someone take a friend off alone. It sucks that I have to teach my 12yo about roofies and how horrible some people are. But there will always be people out there who thinks it's ok to prey on those weaker than them.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:10:46 GMT -5
When a woman has been raped, the first thing to pop into her mind isn't her civic duty. Of course, it's obvious to you and me that failure to report such a crime frees the perpetrator to go on hurting others. That's a no-brainer. We also like to assume he's caught and punished - which doesn't happen all that often. What people don't understand is that when someone has been hurt the way these women were hurt, it's very difficult to think beyond surviving the next day. Yes...sometimes it take years to come to grips with what has happened and to be able to think clearly about the next step. but it is more than that, right? what history teaches EVERYONE (that was for you, Cappy) is that reporting sex crimes is likely to result in you having to drag out all of your dirty laundry for display to the public, enduring months of questioning about your trauma, and eventually, in all likelihood, a wrist slap for the perp, and he is right back on the streets to rape you again. until THAT changes, i really don't expect that reporting will increase much, and perps will act with impunity.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:13:08 GMT -5
I think you'd be shocked to find out this is not always the case. You hear about ruining your own life if you report it, or ruining the predators life who was "young and had a lapse in judgment". Your friends and family try to talk you out of it because they know what you'll have to relive on the witness stand.
You get more pressure to not report, than support if you choose to report.
no, not shocked at all. i will say, however, that i had not considered the "lapse in judgment" argument. that is grim.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:13:51 GMT -5
This is incredibly disgusting and disturbing. I think Cosby could have found plenty of women to willingly sleep with him - money and fame will do that - but he still drugged women. Rape is not about sex. It's about control and/or humiliation. And personally - there's not enough money in the world for me to ever have slept with him. I don't like him and find him very unattractive. i have heard rape described as an act of torture. i think that is accurate.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:14:50 GMT -5
incidentally, for the ladies: i don't know SHIT about this subject, ok? but i am interested in it, which is why i am discussing it. if i say something that is glaringly wrong or awful, please let me know. i am here to learn.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jul 9, 2015 13:16:46 GMT -5
This is incredibly disgusting and disturbing. I think Cosby could have found plenty of women to willingly sleep with him - money and fame will do that - but he still drugged women. Yes, he very likely could have found plenty of willing partners - but drugging them to have is way with them is probably what he got off on - it put him in complete power and control over those women.
Rape isn't so much about sex - it's about control.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 9, 2015 13:17:34 GMT -5
When a woman has been raped, the first thing to pop into her mind isn't her civic duty. Of course, it's obvious to you and me that failure to report such a crime frees the perpetrator to go on hurting others. That's a no-brainer. We also like to assume he's caught and punished - which doesn't happen all that often. What people don't understand is that when someone has been hurt the way these women were hurt, it's very difficult to think beyond surviving the next day. Yes...sometimes it take years to come to grips with what has happened and to be able to think clearly about the next step. but it is more than that, right? what history teaches EVERYONE (that was for you, Cappy) is that reporting sex crimes is likely to result in you having to drag out all of your dirty laundry for display to the public, enduring months of questioning about your trauma, and eventually, in all likelihood, a wrist slap for the perp, and he is right back on the streets to rape you again. until THAT changes, i really don't expect that reporting will increase much, and perps will act with impunity. Oh yes. It's way more than that. That was just one topic of conversation. Not only do you have to deal with cops (some of whom are very trained and sensitive - not a dis to them), then you have to go to the ER and get what feels like being abused all over again so evidence can be gathered. This doesn't even come close to the pain of having every single aspect of your life examined for whatever "dirt" someone can dig up on you.
Some women can't face that - no matter the consequences of their failure to report are. I can understand it. It's not like they want others to have to suffer the same pain. It's just they can't take anymore of it themselves.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2015 13:26:44 GMT -5
DJ - IIRC you don't like people editing your posts so I want to stress it is "important for EVERYONE to understand" why these crimes are not reported. i think women understand it just fine, as a general rule. don't you?I'm kinda in Virgil's camp in this though. Painful as it may be, if victims continue to not report these crimes that just allows the predators to continue to harm others. It also feeds into the societal perception that such things are somehow shameful to the victim and should be hidden or swept under the rug. i agree. so, given that we agree on this, we should address WHY THEY DON'T, and REMOVE THOSE BARRIERS.In the past how law enforcement dealt with these types of crimes was absolutely shameful. I don't know if it's gotten better. Even with all that being said all to often it comes down to a "he said, she said" type of situation and how do you fix that? it HAS gotten better. but not much. So where were you in the "Yes means yes." and "Fake UVA Rape Story" threads? I seem to recall you briefly chipped in your $0.02 on journalistic credibility in the latter, but not a peep about rape. Where were you in the raging debates about whether law enforcement takes rape allegations seriously? I can't find any evidence at all that you stuck your neck out to participate in those discussions. So why suddenly these "Let's tear down the barriers!" fortune cookie statements? If you want to tear down the barriers, do it somewhere your opponents can attack your arguments and perceptions.
|
|