Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,456
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jul 9, 2015 13:27:48 GMT -5
Is it at all possible each of Cosby's alleged (and now one proven) victims at the time of their sexual assault thought they might be the only one and therefore, did not report it or go public? Who would believe them a man like Bill Cosby, an American icon, could be a serial rapist? All these allegations seem to have been spread out over time and only very recently did these women find out there were other women just like them.
Should these women have reported being sexual assaulted? Yes. But some of these incidents happened 20 years or so ago. There is more public awareness today than even 20 years ago about reporting rape. But shame is still a cause not to report an incident of rape or other sexual assault.
Here in Memphis, over 12,000 untested rape kits dating back to the late 1970s were discovered in a police station storage room. Over 12,000 kits! What type of message was received by these women who tried to work with the police but there was no followup and nothing was done. Fortunately, these kits are now being tested. Last I read (about 3 months ago), one person's DNA was found in several of the victims' rape kits. Additionally, 19 other people have been charged with rape as a result of the DNA evidence.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jul 9, 2015 13:31:04 GMT -5
but it is more than that, right? what history teaches EVERYONE (that was for you, Cappy) is that reporting sex crimes is likely to result in you having to drag out all of your dirty laundry for display to the public, enduring months of questioning about your trauma, and eventually, in all likelihood, a wrist slap for the perp, and he is right back on the streets to rape you again. until THAT changes, i really don't expect that reporting will increase much, and perps will act with impunity. Oh yes. It's way more than that. That was just one topic of conversation. Not only do you have to deal with cops (some of whom are very trained and sensitive - not a dis to them), then you have to go to the ER and get what feels like being abused all over again so evidence can be gathered. This doesn't even come close to the pain of having every single aspect of your life examined for whatever "dirt" someone can dig up on you.
Some women can't face that - no matter the consequences of their failure to report are. I can understand it. It's not like they want others to have to suffer the same pain. It's just they can't take anymore of it themselves. There is also family or other social pressure not to report, because more often than not, the perpetrator is someone with whom the victim is acquainted/related/otherwise connected. And that's not even getting into the situations in which the victim felt s/he didn't need to report because "it was my fault," s/he led on the attacker, gave mixed signals, etc. While it would be nice to live in a world in which every victim "did the right thing," putting any sort of civil/criminal consequences in place for failing to report sexual assault is just going to send more victims into the shadows. If the goal is to encourage more people to report sexual assault, this would do the exact opposite.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:34:18 GMT -5
it HAS gotten better. but not much. So where were you in the "Yes means yes." and "Fake UVA Rape Story" threads? I seem to recall you briefly chipped in your $0.02 on journalistic credibility in the latter, but not a peep about rape. Where were you in the raging debates about whether law enforcement takes rape allegations seriously? I can't find any evidence at all that you stuck your neck out to participate in those discussions. So why suddenly these "Let's tear down the barriers!" fortune cookie statements? If you want to tear down the barriers, do it somewhere your opponents can attack your arguments and perceptions. i posted on those threads, Virgil. are you being ironic?
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 9, 2015 13:36:26 GMT -5
Oh yes. It's way more than that. That was just one topic of conversation. Not only do you have to deal with cops (some of whom are very trained and sensitive - not a dis to them), then you have to go to the ER and get what feels like being abused all over again so evidence can be gathered. This doesn't even come close to the pain of having every single aspect of your life examined for whatever "dirt" someone can dig up on you.
Some women can't face that - no matter the consequences of their failure to report are. I can understand it. It's not like they want others to have to suffer the same pain. It's just they can't take anymore of it themselves. There is also family or other social pressure not to report, because more often than not, the perpetrator is someone with whom the victim is acquainted/related/otherwise connected. And that's not even getting into the situations in which the victim felt s/he didn't need to report because "it was my fault," s/he led on the attacker, gave mixed signals, etc. While it would be nice to live in a world in which every victim "did the right thing," putting any sort of civil/criminal consequences in place for failing to report sexual assault is just going to send more victims into the shadows. If the goal is to encourage more people to report sexual assault, this would do the exact opposite.
Wonderfully stated.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:37:32 GMT -5
but it is more than that, right? what history teaches EVERYONE (that was for you, Cappy) is that reporting sex crimes is likely to result in you having to drag out all of your dirty laundry for display to the public, enduring months of questioning about your trauma, and eventually, in all likelihood, a wrist slap for the perp, and he is right back on the streets to rape you again. until THAT changes, i really don't expect that reporting will increase much, and perps will act with impunity. Oh yes. It's way more than that. That was just one topic of conversation. Not only do you have to deal with cops (some of whom are very trained and sensitive - not a dis to them), then you have to go to the ER and get what feels like being abused all over again so evidence can be gathered. This doesn't even come close to the pain of having every single aspect of your life examined for whatever "dirt" someone can dig up on you.
Some women can't face that - no matter the consequences of their failure to report are. I can understand it. It's not like they want others to have to suffer the same pain. It's just they can't take anymore of it themselves.
so, would you agree that what we need is a system that protects women during the criminal process? or do you think that this is a social problem, and part of a "long arc" that is generational, and that nothing but time and attitudes will fix it?
|
|
NancysSummerSip
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 19:19:42 GMT -5
Posts: 36,325
Today's Mood: Full of piss and vinegar
Favorite Drink: Anything with ice
|
Post by NancysSummerSip on Jul 9, 2015 13:38:06 GMT -5
Actually, I am not surprised that his wife Camille is still with him, though many people are, given the number and type of allegations. But they have been together over 50 years; she was not even 20 when they married. They have been through several hells besides the current one: the murder of one of their children, a paternity suit against Bill Cosby (the suit resulted in a payout, but no admission of paternity on his part) and all the other ups and downs that come with any marriage, let alone a celebrity marriage. She can certainly stand on her own feet, professionally, having gone back to school and finished her education and produced a number of television shows. Does she believe the accusations? She says little in interviews, and allows him to say very little as well. Is she an old-school, stand by your man no matter what type? Is she so stuck on being Mrs. Bill Cosby that no amount of pressure can change that? We don't know. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/how-long-can-camille-cosby-keep-defending-bill/ar-AAcG01A?ocid=twmsn
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Jul 9, 2015 13:38:52 GMT -5
incidentally, for the ladies: i don't know SHIT about this subject, ok? but i am interested in it, which is why i am discussing it. if i say something that is glaringly wrong or awful, please let me know. i am here to learn. Your discussion in this area, as well as most others, conveys a deeply ingrained sense of civility IMHO that I believe is part of your base character makeup. Because of that I honestly don't see how you can unintentionally offend. However, I think that creates a blind spot as to how some others can view people and situations in a predatory manner. You are not wired that way. I think you were the one who mentioned once having a discussion with his son as to how women should be treated. If every father had that discussion, this discussion would be far less needed. My biggest fear is that my daughter is wired to be trusting. I was like that also at her age.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,456
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jul 9, 2015 13:43:49 GMT -5
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:44:51 GMT -5
However, I think that creates a blind spot as to how some others can view people and situations in a predatory manner. sorry, can you help me with this. what "people"? what "situations". and yes, i told my son that he should respect women the way he respects me- with absolute boundaries and propriety.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,310
|
Post by swamp on Jul 9, 2015 13:46:14 GMT -5
I think that if I was raped, I wouldn't tell anyone.
I'm not putting myself out there like that.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,241
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2015 13:47:05 GMT -5
I can think of a reason why most of the women did not come forward. He's Bill Cosby. Even with 20+ women coming forward there is a lot of blame shifting b/c people cannot/refuse to wrap their heads around "Dr Huxtable" being a serial rapist and he's not even at the height of his popularity currently. He also has an entire legal team and the money to be able to squash allegations like a bug. Us normal folks don't have those kinds of resources. I can also see the stereotype of the "casting couch" coming into play if they made allegations. After seeing what happened with the pediciatiran we went to I can see why women don't report sex crimes more often. The case I am talking about involved a FOUR YEAR old. Awful awful things were said about her and her/her father were drug thru the mud b/c the accussed was an extremely well respected member of the local community. No way he could have done it. I lost respect for a lot of people and had to do some facebook blocking. If it was that bad for me to see/hear I can't imagine how much worse it was for the people involved. I don't know if I would have the strength to put my child thru that. He finally got put away b/c it was discovered he was being naught with patients and had child porn on his computer as well. It wasn't till all that came out that FINALLY people started thinking maybe the 4 year old was telling the truth. This was all against one pediatrician in potato farmer country. I can imagine it would be 20X worse to convince people that Bill Cosby assulted you.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:48:05 GMT -5
I think that if I was raped, I wouldn't tell anyone.
I'm not putting myself out there like that.
i find that very disappointing, but quite understandable.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:51:53 GMT -5
this is so sickening and depressing i don't know how to respond. edit: it also explains a great deal. i am going to read it over and over again until i stop getting sick, and understand it completely.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,310
|
Post by swamp on Jul 9, 2015 13:52:23 GMT -5
I think that if I was raped, I wouldn't tell anyone.
I'm not putting myself out there like that.
i find that very disappointing, but quite understandable. I may disappoint you, but my need for self preservation and not embarrassing my family is stronger than my need to fix the world for other women. Sorry.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,456
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jul 9, 2015 13:53:40 GMT -5
I think that if I was raped, I wouldn't tell anyone.
I'm not putting myself out there like that.
i find that very disappointing, but quite understandable. As a lawyer, I don't know if Swamp has ever dealt with a rape case in court. But if she has, I imagine Swamp is well aware what the victim goes through in the court system.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:53:45 GMT -5
i find that very disappointing, but quite understandable. I may disappoint you, but my need for self preservation and not embarrassing my family is stronger than my need to fix the world for other women. Sorry. don't apologize. i said i understand. i really do. i need to get over my disappointment, not you. iow, i need a deeper understanding, which i am working on.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,104
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2015 13:54:33 GMT -5
i find that very disappointing, but quite understandable. As a lawyer, I don't know if Swamp has ever dealt with a rape case in court. But if she has, I imagine Swamp is well aware what the victim goes through in the court system. i don't think i could possibly fully understand it, but i have certainly read the accounts, and seen them "dramatized" on TV and film. the reason i say fully understand is that there is a whole societal thing going on that i will never, as a man, live. a friend told me the other day that every woman she knows has experienced sexual harassment. EVERY...WOMAN. how can i possibly extrapolate how that transfers to this discussion?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2015 13:58:17 GMT -5
When a woman has been raped, the first thing to pop into her mind isn't her civic duty. Of course, it's obvious to you and me that failure to report such a crime frees the perpetrator to go on hurting others. That's a no-brainer. We also like to assume he's caught and punished - which doesn't happen all that often. What people don't understand is that when someone has been hurt the way these women were hurt, it's very difficult to think beyond surviving the next day. Yes...sometimes it take years to come to grips with what has happened and to be able to think clearly about the next step. It may well "not be possible" for some women, but I can tell you from the experiences of friends/relatives: i) it is possible for an average-sized woman to grab a light bulb, smash it on a table, and threaten to slit the throat of a would-be rapist if he "takes one step closer", and have him run away, and ii) it is possible for a woman at a 1970's teenage party to be drugged, raped, and then muster up the courage to report it to a very skeptical law enforcement officer. Hence I'm not going to fall back to "it's just not possible" to report rape as a standard. There must be an absurd disconnect between men and women here, because I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that if a man drugged and raped me, my biggest problem would be finding the strength not to take an axe or a baseball bat to the guy. And barring that, he'd find himself facing criminal charges so fast his head would spin. If the officer taking down my report told me I deserved it, I'd be booked for assaulting a police officer because I'd put my fist through the guy's face. "Be[ing] able to think clearly about the next step" would be the least of my problems. Has anyone stopped to think that women might come to this site, read what other women have written, and become indoctrinated into the belief that reporting rape is so terrible that it's just not worth the risk? That's certainly what I'd take away from these threads if I didn't already have strong views on the subject. "It's not a responsibility. Nobody will believe you anyway. Even if they do, nothing will come of it. You'll struggle just to survive day to day. There's nothing wrong with just pretending it didn't happen." I prefer to hold the women who did come forward (Ms. Bowman and Ms. Constand) up as examples of women fulfilling their civic duty, rather than dote on the 101 reasons why we ought to forgive the other victims for never coming forward. Personally, that's the only way I ever see the barriers ever breaking down. But that's just me.
|
|
vonna
Well-Known Member
Joined: Aug 11, 2012 15:58:51 GMT -5
Posts: 1,249
|
Post by vonna on Jul 9, 2015 14:02:58 GMT -5
i think it is really important for men to understand, deeply, why these crimes are not reported. hint: it is not because they don't happen. I understand it just fine. It's a risk, a heartache, and an embarrassment. Doing the right thing isn't always easy. But duty is duty. Never compromise the standard. Women are not too weak or fragile to be held to that standard. Ugh. I don't even think I should respond in this thread. But, I will.
A good many women that have been raped are not "strong" enough to report the rape at a time when evidence can be collected. AND, even if evidence IS collected, it can still be a "he said, she said". Rape is VERY HARD to prove.
I was raped as a nineteen year old college student. I had been selected by my university to attend a leadership conference at another university. Each university that participated sent both their male and female "leader of the year". Well, the last night of the week long conference, I stupidly stepped into a male hotel room (we were heading to the dance that was being held on our last night) because he "forgot his wallet" and he quickly locked the door behind him, and when I didn't respond positively to his overtures, he grabbed my when I lunged for the door and brutally raped me (at knifepoint).
I was nineteen, in a place where I knew no one, and yes, Virgil, I did the wrong thing. I went back to my room crying, I showered, and the next day I boarded the bus to the airport to head back to my college. By the time I wrapped my head around what had happened to me, and what I should do, there was NO chance there would be ANY evidence that would back up what had happened.
So, yes, I was wrong to not report it, I was weak, I was probably many things. But I also had experienced something that fundamentally changed me and left me (at the time) a shell of the person I had been before. Some victims are robbed of their inner strength as well. I guess that makes me pretty small by your standards.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,456
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jul 9, 2015 14:04:14 GMT -5
As a lawyer, I don't know if Swamp has ever dealt with a rape case in court. But if she has, I imagine Swamp is well aware what the victim goes through in the court system. i don't think i could possibly fully understand it, but i have certainly read the accounts, and seen them "dramatized" on TV and film. the reason i say fully understand is that there is a whole societal thing going on that i will never, as a man, live. a friend told me the other day that every woman she knows has experienced sexual harassment. EVERY...WOMAN. how can i possibly extrapolate how that transfers to this discussion? Say you are jumped by a guy and he gets you down, steals your watch and wallet and then rapes you in the butt. You most most likely would contact the police and tell them you were robbed and assaulted. But would you also tell them you had been raped? Would you go to the hospital and have someone take samples of the rape out of your butt? Would you tell your wife? Your children? Your extended family and friends? Would you like it plastered in the newspapers and then have to relive the rape in court if the rapist was caught? This is what women have to go through and far, far more. I would report the robbery and assault. But I am not sure I would report the rape if for nothing else the embarrassment of having been overpowered and possibly powerless at the time. It is not supposed to happen to guys but it does.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2015 14:05:26 GMT -5
I can think of a reason why most of the women did not come forward. He's Bill Cosby. Even with 20+ women coming forward there is a lot of blame shifting b/c people cannot/refuse to wrap their heads around "Dr Huxtable" being a serial rapist and he's not even at the height of his popularity currently. He also has an entire legal team and the money to be able to squash allegations like a bug. Us normal folks don't have those kinds of resources Honestly, why do you care if people believe you? It's the truth. I just don't get this.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Jul 9, 2015 14:06:55 GMT -5
However, I think that creates a blind spot as to how some others can view people and situations in a predatory manner. sorry, can you help me with this. what "people"? what "situations". and yes, i told my son that he should respect women the way he respects me- with absolute boundaries and propriety. If you were a 20 yo and saw a young woman who was intoxicated at a party (or even passed out) would you think: 1. Maybe I should help get her somewhere safe where she could sleep it off, or 2. Hell yes!!! Score! I don't think you're wired to even have the second thought cross you mind. Just like I don't think you'd ever think to drug someone's drink so you can take advantage of them. To be honest, I'm not wired that way either so I didn't think about how hyper-vigilant people have to be to protect themselves. Other would see it as being naïve or stupid. Maybe they're right. But if you're not wired that way, you can't even think how to protect yourself, or how to advise someone against doing a bad behavior. Your advice to your son is so broad, but good, that it covers all the bases. How do you come up with something equally broad on advising someone to be cautious when they aren't wired that way? Roofies weren't popular when I was in college so it wasn't something we knew to look out for. Now that society is on to them, the predators will have to come up with some other way to take advantage of people. And if you don't think like a predator, then it's more likely you will become the prey because you can't anticipate their moves. Best I can do. Hope it makes sense.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,241
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2015 14:17:58 GMT -5
Honestly, why do you care if people believe you? It's the truth.
Because unless there is phyiscal evidence it becomes his word against theirs. Bill Cosby's legal team would be all over that making sure to turn over any rock they can find in order to prove the girl a liar and establish "reasonable doubt".
A person with access to your average legal representation isn't going to stand a chance.
Rape kits and genetics were in their infancy when a lot of these crimes happened. So even if they got physical evidence it may not have been sufficient to convict Cosby or even get it to trial.
I believe in the Kobe Bryant case they had his DNA but there was also other men's DNA detected so it was presented as if she's willing to have sex with so many men (we have DNA to prove she's a slut!) then she couldn't have been raped, she had to have asked for it.
This isn't like TV where truth and justice always prevail. At the end of the day in court it'd come down to who made their case better.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,310
|
Post by swamp on Jul 9, 2015 14:18:08 GMT -5
i find that very disappointing, but quite understandable. As a lawyer, I don't know if Swamp has ever dealt with a rape case in court. But if she has, I imagine Swamp is well aware what the victim goes through in the court system. I have cross examined rape victims. I hate doing it.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jul 9, 2015 14:18:26 GMT -5
I agree. I think a large part of it is socialization. Women and girls have historically been prided on being polite and accommodating. This is changing slowly, but I think a lot of assault stories begin with "I had a bad feeling about the situation, but I didn't want to seem rude..."
Referring back to the disconnect -- I really don't think that's what most people are getting out of the thread. It's already fairly common knowledge that reporting rape comes with a number of potential risks.
I do think that coming online and reading comments that tend to focus on what the victim could have done to PREVENT the assault (not in this thread, but others) does more to stifle reporting than people saying they can understand why victims don't report. When an accusation of rape or sexual assault doesn't immediately devolve into "Why did you leave your drink unattended?" "What did you think was going to happen when you went to that party?", the barriers will be weakened. But as it is now, when victims can easily see how other victims are treated by the courts, the media, and the public, why would they choose to put themselves through that for an uncertain outcome?
Victims have enough guilt, self-blame, and other negative emotions that they don't need to have more piled on by putting what is often the worst thing they've ever experienced out for public consumption and judgment. They are not responsible for other/subsequent victims -- the rapist is.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2015 14:20:48 GMT -5
I understand it just fine. It's a risk, a heartache, and an embarrassment. Doing the right thing isn't always easy. But duty is duty. Never compromise the standard. Women are not too weak or fragile to be held to that standard. Ugh. I don't even think I should respond in this thread. But, I will.
A good many women that have been raped are not "strong" enough to report the rape at a time when evidence can be collected. AND, even if evidence IS collected, it can still be a "he said, she said". Rape is VERY HARD to prove.
I was raped as a nineteen year old college student. I had been selected by my university to attend a leadership conference at another university. Each university that participated sent both their male and female "leader of the year". Well, the last night of the week long conference, I stupidly stepped into a male hotel room (we were heading to the dance that was being held on our last night) because he "forgot his wallet" and he quickly locked the door behind him, and when I didn't respond positively to his overtures, he grabbed my when I lunged for the door and brutally raped me (at knifepoint).
I was nineteen, in a place where I knew no one, and yes, Virgil, I did the wrong thing. I went back to my room crying, I showered, and the next day I boarded the bus to the airport to head back to my college. By the time I wrapped my head around what had happened to me, and what I should do, there was NO chance there would be ANY evidence that would back up what had happened.
So, yes, I was wrong to not report it, I was weak, I was probably many things. But I also had experienced something that fundamentally changed me and left me (at the time) a shell of the person I had been before. Some victims are robbed of their inner strength as well. I guess that makes me pretty small by your standards.
I'm very sorry to hear that. I do realize that it's not your fault that he assaulted you and that you had your reasons for not reporting it. If you were totally out of sorts at the time, it was what it was. I do sense some remorse that you didn't immediately document the crime, and if you do, since nothing can undo that crime, the best anyone can hope to accomplish in this thread is to give readers that might be facing the same situation in future the courage and presence of mind to damn the consequences and take the necessary measures. If anything profitable comes out of these discussions, I should think it would be a kind of mental spark that sits in reader's minds, and when facing the chaos and stigma of a violent crime like rape, drives them through the confusion with the message "you have to report this; no matter what, you have to report this". As Mr. Cosby's case proves, some of these guys keep going and going for decades, and future victims have no warning. At any rate, I realize now that this is CE thread, and I've promised not to get involved in discussions like this, hence I take my leave, apologize for any offense I may have caused, and hope that my contributions might help instill that "spark" in at least one reader. Because we don't need any more Bill Cosbys.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 9, 2015 14:25:09 GMT -5
Oh yes. It's way more than that. That was just one topic of conversation. Not only do you have to deal with cops (some of whom are very trained and sensitive - not a dis to them), then you have to go to the ER and get what feels like being abused all over again so evidence can be gathered. This doesn't even come close to the pain of having every single aspect of your life examined for whatever "dirt" someone can dig up on you.
Some women can't face that - no matter the consequences of their failure to report are. I can understand it. It's not like they want others to have to suffer the same pain. It's just they can't take anymore of it themselves.
so, would you agree that what we need is a system that protects women during the criminal process? or do you think that this is a social problem, and part of a "long arc" that is generational, and that nothing but time and attitudes will fix it? I'm not sure what could protect a woman during the evidence gathering process. I'm sure you know what needs to be done. Most places have specially trained staff for this procedure. It's no less invasive and nothing is going to make it so. Even the most gentle speculum and a swab is invasive at a time when you can't even stand to be touched. And that's if the rape was limited to vaginal. The most gentle combing of your most private places is still humiliating. It can be a long process - most often between 2 and 4 hours when all is said and done. All that woman wants is to go get a shower and be someplace private. It's a necessary evil and one that some women just can't face. I can't fault them for that because I'm not them.
I think we've come a long way regarding sensitivity training and professionals having more compassion, but there's just no way this isn't going to suck.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2015 14:27:35 GMT -5
Honestly, why do you care if people believe you? It's the truth.
Because unless there is phyiscal evidence it becomes his word against theirs. Bill Cosby's legal team would be all over that making sure to turn over any rock they can find in order to prove the girl a liar and establish "reasonable doubt". A person with access to your average legal representation isn't going to stand a chance. Rape kits and genetics were in their infancy when a lot of these crimes happened. So even if they got physical evidence it may not have been sufficient to convict Cosby or even get it to trial. I believe in the Kobe Bryant case they had his DNA but there was also other men's DNA detected so it was presented as if she's willing to have sex with so many men (we have DNA to prove she's a slut!) then she couldn't have been raped, she had to have asked for it. This isn't like TV where truth and justice always prevail. At the end of the day in court it'd come down to who made their case better. I realize that. I realize conviction rates on rape cases are low. My deeper lament was more along the lines of: Why does a conviction matter more than the truth? To me, getting the truth out there in such cases, regardless of whether it will be believed or is actionable, is an end unto itself. It's a warning to others. It's a piece in a larger puzzle. It's a civic responsibility. If the testimony proves to be actionable and to lead to justice for the perpetrator, all the better. But this isn't the only reason why documenting the crime is so important.
|
|
vonna
Well-Known Member
Joined: Aug 11, 2012 15:58:51 GMT -5
Posts: 1,249
|
Post by vonna on Jul 9, 2015 14:27:31 GMT -5
When a woman has been raped, the first thing to pop into her mind isn't her civic duty. Of course, it's obvious to you and me that failure to report such a crime frees the perpetrator to go on hurting others. That's a no-brainer. We also like to assume he's caught and punished - which doesn't happen all that often. What people don't understand is that when someone has been hurt the way these women were hurt, it's very difficult to think beyond surviving the next day. Yes...sometimes it take years to come to grips with what has happened and to be able to think clearly about the next step. It may well "not be possible" for some women, but I can tell you from the experiences of friends/relatives: i) it is possible for an average-sized woman to grab a light bulb, smash it on a table, and threaten to slit the throat of a would-be rapist if he "takes one step closer", and have him run away, and ii) it is possible for a woman at a 1970's teenage party to be drugged, raped, and then muster up the courage to report it to a very skeptical law enforcement officer.
Hence I'm not going to fall back to "it's just not possible" to report rape as a standard. There must be an absurd disconnect between men and women here, because I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that if a man drugged and raped me, my biggest problem would be finding the strength not to take an axe or a baseball bat to the guy. And barring that, he'd find himself facing criminal charges so fast his head would spin. If the officer taking down my report told me I deserved it, I'd be booked for assaulting a police officer because I'd put my fist through the guy's face. "Be[ing] able to think clearly about the next step" would be the least of my problems. Has anyone stopped to think that women might come to this site, read what other women have written, and become indoctrinated into the belief that reporting rape is so terrible that it's just not worth the risk? That's certainly what I'd take away from these threads if I didn't already have strong views on the subject. "It's not a responsibility. Nobody will believe you anyway. Even if they do, nothing will come of it. You'll struggle just to survive day to day. There's nothing wrong with just pretending it didn't happen." I prefer to hold the women who did come forward (Ms. Bowman and Ms. Constand) up as examples of women fulfilling their civic duty, rather than dote on the 101 reasons why we ought to forgive the other victims for never coming forward. Personally, that's the only way I ever see the barriers ever breaking down. But that's just me. Okay, it is possible for those things. I am 5 foot 4, and at that time weighed 108 pounds. I didn't have a chance to grab a light bulb, because when I didn't respond to his initial overtures, he slammed my on the bed, held be down and held a knife to my neck. Be it wrong or right, whenever I fought him off, he pushed the blade farther into my neck, his weight (he was about 6 foot 2, 220 pounds) -- weighted at least twice what I did) and then choked me with one arm, had me pinned down with his body weight and ripped my underpants off with his other hand. (I was wearing a dress -- we were supposed to be going to the leadership conference dance). Eventually I stopped fighting, he was inflicting so much pain, and convinced me he would continue to hurt me or even kill me. Again, I don't measure up to your definition of a woman that fulfills her civic duty.
|
|
Peace Of Mind
Senior Associate
[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:53:02 GMT -5
Posts: 15,554
Location: Paradise
|
Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 9, 2015 14:28:52 GMT -5
I can think of a reason why most of the women did not come forward. He's Bill Cosby. Even with 20+ women coming forward there is a lot of blame shifting b/c people cannot/refuse to wrap their heads around "Dr Huxtable" being a serial rapist and he's not even at the height of his popularity currently. He also has an entire legal team and the money to be able to squash allegations like a bug. Us normal folks don't have those kinds of resources Honestly, why do you care if people believe you? It's the truth. I just don't get this. It's because telling your most embarrassing/humiliating experience to a bunch of strangers to only not be believed is like being raped all over again. vonna (((Hugs))) I am so very sorry this happened to you. You did the right thing for YOU and don't allow anybody to make you doubt yourself for one second.
|
|