mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 0:35:35 GMT -5
I will definitely read the book, djAdvocate. Most of what I know I learned from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I taught college students in Iran. I dealt with that same demographic in Saudi, and had many Saudi friends. Over the years, I was fortunate enough to become close enough to some to allow them to speak freely without feeling they'd be judged by the terms of Western belief. I was there to learn and they knew it. They, too, wished to learn and understand. Until you've discussed international politics over camel and a side of rice, you haven't really lived. While neither they, nor I, ever reached a point of total understanding, both sides gained in the process of information exchange. I see these people much differently than most Westerners do.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 0:39:46 GMT -5
I will definitely read the book, djAdvocate. Most of what I know I learned from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I taught college students in Iran. I dealt with that same demographic in Saudi, and had many Saudi friends. Over the years, I was fortunate enough to become close enough to some to allow them to speak freely without feeling they'd be judged by the terms of Western belief. I was there to learn and they knew it. They, too, wished to learn and understand. Until you've discussed international politics over camel and a side of rice, you haven't really lived. While neither they, nor I, ever reached a point of total understanding, both sides gained in the process of information exchange. I see these people much differently than most Westerners do. your understanding is better than most. but i think our general understanding of this enemy is poor for one very good reason: most of us will never encounter such a person as a suicide terrorist. it we are lucky anyway! ok, bedtime. a pleasure, as always, mmhmm.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 0:41:41 GMT -5
Does anyone here know why there are no hijackings of Israeli airplanes? The answer is very simple, and it's not a cockpit vault, or armed pilots, and 'air marshalls'. Israeli society has accepted this, we never would- but the minute an Israeli airplane is hijacked, everyone on board is considered legally dead. Any and all force necessary to retake the plane, and kill the hijackers will be used- and if they kill a few of their own, or shoot down the whole plane- that's just the price of Israel's security. Not saying I agree with it, but if these asshats knew it didn't matter who they had, once we had them in our sites, the bombs would follow-- they'd quit this shit.
Whatever. In the meantime the Israelis are notorious for negotiating with terrorists to free hostages. They will even do a 1000 to 1 split if necessary. crooksandliars.com/2014/06/will-republicans-criticize-israel not only that, Israeli's are notorious terrorist appeasers. they are largely responsible for the growth in suicide terrorism as a tactic of rebel warfare because they have caved in to demands so consistently. Hamas blazed the trail, and OBL and ISIS followed.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 0:49:47 GMT -5
I will definitely read the book, djAdvocate. Most of what I know I learned from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I taught college students in Iran. I dealt with that same demographic in Saudi, and had many Saudi friends. Over the years, I was fortunate enough to become close enough to some to allow them to speak freely without feeling they'd be judged by the terms of Western belief. I was there to learn and they knew it. They, too, wished to learn and understand. Until you've discussed international politics over camel and a side of rice, you haven't really lived. While neither they, nor I, ever reached a point of total understanding, both sides gained in the process of information exchange. I see these people much differently than most Westerners do. your understanding is better than most. but i think our general understanding of this enemy is poor for one very good reason: most of us will never encounter such a person as a suicide terrorist. it we are lucky anyway! ok, bedtime. a pleasure, as always, mmhmm. Sleep softly, dj. I certainly hope none of us ever encounter a suicide terrorist. I knew a couple of young men in Iran who might have been turned that way under the correct set of circumstances. I've often wondered what happened to quite a few of my students there. Most were just young people trying to understand the world into which they'd been born. Some, however, certainly gave me pause.
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 23, 2014 1:32:30 GMT -5
Guess I am with PBP on this- I could give a shit what religion you are claiming- when you execute people on camera for your bullshit propaganda you have signed your own death warrant. I haven't backed a war in my life but I will back a mission to kill everyone of these )*(&*&^'s . Send it in strong- forget the partisan bullshit- agree to wipe these people off the map.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 9:23:42 GMT -5
Guess I am with PBP on this- I could give a shit what religion you are claiming- when you execute people on camera for your bullshit propaganda you have signed your own death warrant. I haven't backed a war in my life but I will back a mission to kill everyone of these )*(&*&^'s . Send it in strong- forget the partisan bullshit- agree to wipe these people off the map. again, i don't think this has much to do with religion. what Pape discovered is that the only role religion plays in suicide terrorism is reinforcing "otherness". in other words, it is rare for suicide terrorists to attack those of their own religion. but about half of the world's terrorism is done by people whose religions are other than Islam. i know you know that, EVT, because we have discussed it. so, like you, i don't give a damn about the religion of the terrorist, either- nor do i think it leads to any understanding of their actions. we in the West tend to think it does. but that is the wrong path if you want to make any sense of this. it is about "otherness". it is about "alien occupation". i would posit that our response of rage and vengeance is precisely what they want. but i will admit that it is rather hard to control that. do keep in mind one thing, however: that instinct is what got us into Iraq- so it is a good thing to try to fight, if you have the will.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 9:35:40 GMT -5
In my experience, the Arab culture promotes individuality and the "otherness" of which dj speaks in a way most don't see, much less understand. Each person is an entity unto himself. There's more to the old Bedouin saw "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, my cousins and I against strangers" than is immediately obvious. First is always "I". Getting these folks to work together is like herding cats. It's one reason why the military organization of ISIS is being noted as something very new and quite frightening.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 10:11:37 GMT -5
In my experience, the Arab culture promotes individuality and the "otherness" of which dj speaks in a way most don't see, much less understand. Each person is an entity unto himself. There's more to the old Bedouin saw "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, my cousins and I against strangers" than is immediately obvious. First is always "I". Getting these folks to work together is like herding cats. It's one reason why the military organization of ISIS is being noted as something very new and quite frightening. this is also why suicide terrorism is only "organized" in the vaguest sense. it is organized by IDEAS, but not really by groups. this tendency in the West to look for armies of like minded individuals that we can attack and drop bombs on really works against us in this "war". this "war" is cellular in nature. it is a war of many suns, with a few planets gravitating around them- not one individual that many flock around. one of the best ways to fight this war is to fight the ideas. this can, in some cases, deprive the air in which these ideas breathe. i have to give Obama credit, here. his refusal to give into inflammatory "other" language like "Islamofascist" has been of great benefit in this "war". that sort of language is what is used to motivate people against us, and it is a powerful tool, in a system where language and image play key roles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 10:51:03 GMT -5
I still tend to believe they want what they are telling us they want and that is a unified caliphate governed by Sharia law. It's not as if no one has talked to or heard from these folks. We don't need to guess or wonder, they are pretty clear if you are inclined to believe them. I guess I'm inclined to believe them.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 10:58:14 GMT -5
I still tend to believe they want what they are telling us they want and that is a unified caliphate governed by Sharia law. It's not as if no one has talked to or heard from these folks. We don't need to guess or wonder, they are pretty clear if you are inclined to believe them. I guess I'm inclined to believe them.
i am not too concerned with what they want. i am more concerned with what they are likely to get. history is an important guide, in this respect. when Sayd Kutb had his little uprising in Egypt, what happened? he was put to death, that is what. and his followers were scattered to the winds. he called for an uprising, just like ISIS is doing- and the response was basically "i want my MTV". it must be quite disheartening being a zealot.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 11:09:00 GMT -5
i would posit that far more intelligent, influential, and charismatic people than those in ISIS have tried what they are trying. they have all failed. but that alone doesn't make me optimistic. what makes me optimistic that they will fail is that it is already too late. the ME has Google. the ME has Twitter. you can't stop ideas. change is coming. and no amount of conservatism, dogmatism, and backwardness will stop it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 12:43:17 GMT -5
i would posit that far more intelligent, influential, and charismatic people than those in ISIS have tried what they are trying. they have all failed. but that alone doesn't make me optimistic. what makes me optimistic that they will fail is that it is already too late. the ME has Google. the ME has Twitter. you can't stop ideas. change is coming. and no amount of conservatism, dogmatism, and backwardness will stop it. The zealots see that, too. That's why they're making this effort. That, and the fact that they are truly naive. They believe all who have joined them have done so for "the cause". The sociopaths, on the other hand, are there for the "fun".
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 13:08:21 GMT -5
I see it as a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, deminmaine. If the US, with or without allies, heads hell-bent into Syria to get these terrorists, there's going to be mass destruction. Yet, if the US, with or without allies, does nothing there's still going to be mass destruction. These guys are killing everyone, not just those who aren't Muslims. They kill Sunni and Shi'a equally and without distinction. If you're not a hard-line militant, you're dead meat. Setting them up with a Caliphate somewhere would probably satisfy the zealots. Trouble is, it won't do a thing for the sociopaths who've latched onto this opportunity to pretend to be zealots. There are a lot of them now, they're well-trained and battle-hardened, and they really, really like to kill people. That's the contingent that's a true sticky wicket.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 23, 2014 14:00:19 GMT -5
Kill them. Find their 'imam', kill him. kill their pet goat. salt the earth where they used to live. good recipe for 1000 years of intergenerational terrorism, there. if you decide to carry this out, let me know where you are heading, and i will make sure that where i am heading is a point on God's Green Earth that is furthest from you, Paul. Funny, the Japanese aren't trying to kill us anymore.
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2014 14:29:35 GMT -5
good recipe for 1000 years of intergenerational terrorism, there. if you decide to carry this out, let me know where you are heading, and i will make sure that where i am heading is a point on God's Green Earth that is furthest from you, Paul. Funny, the Japanese aren't trying to kill us anymore. Totally different culture and they have changed too. Japan and China are no longer warring against each other like they did over spans of generations.
This is closer to the age old conflict of Arabs versus Israelis.
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2014 14:58:42 GMT -5
Unfortunately this is true. is it? When it comes to groups that do this as a terror and funding mechanism, yes.
In other specific instances no. My dad BTW used to teach in countries that kidnap people as a way of making money. They do it because it works. Those people will likely only stop when they make sufficient money in other ways or their governments really shut them down.
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2014 15:00:12 GMT -5
FWIW, there is a video of an interview with Foley's brother and Anderson Cooper on MSN's website. I didn't watch the execution one, as I generally try to avoid those, but this might be interesting to those on the thread.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 15:11:12 GMT -5
good recipe for 1000 years of intergenerational terrorism, there. if you decide to carry this out, let me know where you are heading, and i will make sure that where i am heading is a point on God's Green Earth that is furthest from you, Paul. Funny, the Japanese aren't trying to kill us anymore. There is absolutely no measure of comparison between the Japanese and these people, paul. None.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 15:22:35 GMT -5
When it comes to groups that do this as a terror and funding mechanism, yes.
does it?
In other specific instances no. My dad BTW used to teach in countries that kidnap people as a way of making money. They do it because it works. Those people will likely only stop when they make sufficient money in other ways or their governments really shut them down.
these people won't stop either, because it is not money they are after.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 15:24:31 GMT -5
i would posit that far more intelligent, influential, and charismatic people than those in ISIS have tried what they are trying. they have all failed. but that alone doesn't make me optimistic. what makes me optimistic that they will fail is that it is already too late. the ME has Google. the ME has Twitter. you can't stop ideas. change is coming. and no amount of conservatism, dogmatism, and backwardness will stop it. The zealots see that, too. That's why they're making this effort. That, and the fact that they are truly naive. They believe all who have joined them have done so for "the cause". The sociopaths, on the other hand, are there for the "fun". agreed. not to state the obvious, but there is something seriously weird about ISIS. any ME group that features three British ex-pats prominently in the organization has some questions to answer.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 15:30:56 GMT -5
The zealots see that, too. That's why they're making this effort. That, and the fact that they are truly naive. They believe all who have joined them have done so for "the cause". The sociopaths, on the other hand, are there for the "fun". agreed. not to state the obvious, but there is something seriously weird about ISIS. any ME group that features three British ex-pats prominently in the organization has some questions to answer. That's the naivete in motion, dj. Those of whom you speak are simply sociopaths - murderers who have found a way to murder with impunity. In fact, they've found a way to murder and be looked upon as heroes. Pretty heady stuff, that. The zealots are so convinced their vision is bliss they actually believe these creatures favor their version of Nirvana on earth. In some ways, it's sad; however, it's a lot sadder for those who are suffering and dying for a cause only a few actually support.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 15:31:42 GMT -5
I don't doubt that their "movement" will eventually flame out. My concern is when, and after how much carnage and damage?
What, if anything, would you recommend be done to reign them in, in the meantime? (Speaking to dj and mmhmm here especially) i am far from an expert, but there are about ten things i would do. first of all, i would start building hospitals and schools in Iraq rather than prisons and airbases. second, i would stop bombing civilian targets in Iraq. it is a waste of time, and feeds right into their agenda. third, let's stop fooling ourselves- we are not going to wage a ground or sustained air campaign in Syria, and because of that, we are not going to win this thing with a porous border. ISIS knows that. so, we have to do something to secure that border, unfortunately. high priority. next up, we stop treating this as a military operation, and start treating it as a justice operation. if you need more detail, i will provide it, but i have probably mentioned it two dozen times on the board already, so i can't blame you if you are bored with it. in the long term sense, getting the hell out of Iraq is a good idea. the longer we stay there, the longer groups like ISIS will have a fighting chance. there are a few other things that would be helpful, but i can't think of them right now. the above is just off the top of my head.
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2014 15:33:17 GMT -5
When it comes to groups that do this as a terror and funding mechanism, yes.
does it?
In other specific instances no. My dad BTW used to teach in countries that kidnap people as a way of making money. They do it because it works. Those people will likely only stop when they make sufficient money in other ways or their governments really shut them down.
these people won't stop either, because it is not money they are after. There's two aspects of stopping and I was only addressing one.
1) Stopping kidnapping as a way to fund what they really want
you I think are addressing #2. What would stop them in general, if anything.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 15:36:14 GMT -5
i agree that they will cause considerable damage before they flame out. i just worry that we are throwing more fuel on the fire by doing something about it than by doing nothing about it. we are in an awkward bind. but i already mentioned that.
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2014 15:37:22 GMT -5
agreed. not to state the obvious, but there is something seriously weird about ISIS. any ME group that features three British ex-pats prominently in the organization has some questions to answer. That's the naivete in motion, dj. Those of whom you speak are simply sociopaths - murderers who have found a way to murder with impunity. In fact, they've found a way to murder and be looked upon as heroes. Pretty heady stuff, that. The zealots are so convinced their vision is bliss they actually believe these creatures favor their version of Nirvana on earth. In some ways, it's sad; however, it's a lot sadder for those who are suffering and dying for a cause only a few actually support. Are these ex-pats trained military sociopaths?
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 15:38:33 GMT -5
these people won't stop either, because it is not money they are after. There's two aspects of stopping and I was only addressing one.
1) Stopping kidnapping as a way to fund what they really want
you I think are addressing #2. What would stop them in general, if anything.
i think mmhmm has it about right. the sociopaths will stop at nothing, so we need to take them out, preferably law enforcement style. the rest will wake up from their illusion, or they won't. i guess i would advise to take the path of least harm. not easily determined, unfortunately.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 15:40:34 GMT -5
That's the naivete in motion, dj. Those of whom you speak are simply sociopaths - murderers who have found a way to murder with impunity. In fact, they've found a way to murder and be looked upon as heroes. Pretty heady stuff, that. The zealots are so convinced their vision is bliss they actually believe these creatures favor their version of Nirvana on earth. In some ways, it's sad; however, it's a lot sadder for those who are suffering and dying for a cause only a few actually support. Are these ex-pats trained military sociopaths?
my guess is: either that or mercenaries, or both.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 15:42:51 GMT -5
That's the naivete in motion, dj. Those of whom you speak are simply sociopaths - murderers who have found a way to murder with impunity. In fact, they've found a way to murder and be looked upon as heroes. Pretty heady stuff, that. The zealots are so convinced their vision is bliss they actually believe these creatures favor their version of Nirvana on earth. In some ways, it's sad; however, it's a lot sadder for those who are suffering and dying for a cause only a few actually support. Are these ex-pats trained military sociopaths?
I don't know, Opti. What I do know is they've had plenty of training hacking their way through those Iraqis who don't choose to follow their "golden path". They're murderers and they like it.
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 23, 2014 15:51:55 GMT -5
A policy of total annihilation. We find out who they are and wipe them out completely. We also wipe out anyone who trained, or trained with them. We wipe out their religious leaders. We wipe out their families. We wipe out the families of their religious leaders, and anyone who trained, or trained with them. You fuck with a single American and we end you, everyone you know, and everyone they know. Period. No negotiation, no ransoms, no trades, no deals, no sympathy, no understanding. Fuck these animals. They want to tear each other apart I say we stand back and let them, but we draw the line in the sand, you mess with us and you die.
The world hates us already, we might as well stop footing around.
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2014 16:03:17 GMT -5
A policy of total annihilation. We find out who they are and wipe them out completely. We also wipe out anyone who trained, or trained with them. We wipe out their religious leaders. We wipe out their families. We wipe out the families of their religious leaders, and anyone who trained, or trained with them. You fuck with a single American and we end you, everyone you know, and everyone they know. Period. No negotiation, no ransoms, no trades, no deals, no sympathy, no understanding. Fuck these animals. They want to tear each other apart I say we stand back and let them, but we draw the line in the sand, you mess with us and you die. The world hates us already, we might as well stop footing around. Your approach and Paul's virtually guarantee's creating hatred of the US in quarters it may not even exist now.
I still think with all these groups we need to be willing to change policy and target individuals. And we need to do it the way that I think is still not kosher(US policy), that is assassins in small teams or individuals. Because world leaders don't like to be targeted I think most of the civilized world has agreed that targeting on that level is bad and should not be done. So instead we get intelligence on where someone might be and bomb the heck out of it, hoping we get them.
Just killing the bad guys and minimizing collateral damage insures more future cooperation with those who had the misfortune to live near or around them.
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