The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 22, 2014 8:13:29 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 22, 2014 8:29:37 GMT -5
No government paid ransoms. If a private citizen wishes to pay the ransom, the government should stay out of the way.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 22, 2014 8:35:03 GMT -5
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 22, 2014 11:49:19 GMT -5
Are the Europeans ransoms being paid by the European governments or by the companies that employ those Europeans? I believe even in the States, companies that require their employees to work in unstable parts of the world will agree to pay a ransom for their employees. The government won't, though. Not sure about Europe. I do feel very sorry for the Foleys, but no, the government should not start ransoming captives. Finding where the hostage is being held and sending in some Seals to wipe out the terrorists and liberate the hostage, yes, but we should not negotiate with terrorists.
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mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on Aug 22, 2014 11:55:04 GMT -5
I'm truly sorry for those who are caught in this horrible web, but I too am against the state paying ransom for hostages.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 12:11:38 GMT -5
i'm kinda for whatever works to bring people home. so, i don't really have what you might call a "principled position", like the rest of y'all.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 22, 2014 12:39:06 GMT -5
Parents had hoped to negotiate with Foley captors
I wonder if a poster or two will find fault with the Foley family for communicating via email with their son's captors. I know one poster who stated the father of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl should be hanged and thrown into Gitmo for treason against the United States because he communicated via email with his son's captors in an attempt to try and gain his son's release. While the two cases are very different, the actions and goal of the parents were the same: the safe release of their children through email dialogue with the captors. I personally find no fault with either sets of parents trying to help their sons gain their freedom through engaging the captors.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 22, 2014 13:14:28 GMT -5
Are the Europeans ransoms being paid by the European governments or by the companies that employ those Europeans? I believe even in the States, companies that require their employees to work in unstable parts of the world will agree to pay a ransom for their employees. The government won't, though. Not sure about Europe. I do feel very sorry for the Foleys, but no, the government should not start ransoming captives. Finding where the hostage is being held and sending in some Seals to wipe out the terrorists and liberate the hostage, yes, but we should not negotiate with terrorists. The European governments are paying the ransoms. From the article I linked: When he was executed this week, Mr. Foley became the second Western reporter to be killed by Islamic extremists since 2002, when Daniel Pearl, a Wall Street Journal reporter, was beheaded by a top Qaeda operative. Mr. Pearl’s murder was praised by a leading ideologue in a how-to manual that promoted the tactic of kidnapping foreigners. Since then, the terror network has turned to abducting Westerners to finance itself — seizing more than 50 foreigners in the past five years, almost all of whom were released after their governments paid sizable ransoms, according to a review of the known cases by The Times.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 13:27:05 GMT -5
Are the Europeans ransoms being paid by the European governments or by the companies that employ those Europeans? I believe even in the States, companies that require their employees to work in unstable parts of the world will agree to pay a ransom for their employees. The government won't, though. Not sure about Europe. I do feel very sorry for the Foleys, but no, the government should not start ransoming captives. Finding where the hostage is being held and sending in some Seals to wipe out the terrorists and liberate the hostage, yes, but we should not negotiate with terrorists. The European governments are paying the ransoms. From the article I linked: When he was executed this week, Mr. Foley became the second Western reporter to be killed by Islamic extremists since 2002, when Daniel Pearl, a Wall Street Journal reporter, was beheaded by a top Qaeda operative. Mr. Pearl’s murder was praised by a leading ideologue in a how-to manual that promoted the tactic of kidnapping foreigners. Since then, the terror network has turned to abducting Westerners to finance itself — seizing more than 50 foreigners in the past five years, almost all of whom were released after their governments paid sizable ransoms, according to a review of the known cases by The Times.everybody pays them other than us and the UK, apparently. because....exceptionalism, i guess?
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Aug 22, 2014 13:30:51 GMT -5
I'm truly sorry for those who are caught in this horrible web, but I too am against the state paying ransom for hostages.
This is a sickening situation.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 22, 2014 13:42:54 GMT -5
The European governments are paying the ransoms. From the article I linked: When he was executed this week, Mr. Foley became the second Western reporter to be killed by Islamic extremists since 2002, when Daniel Pearl, a Wall Street Journal reporter, was beheaded by a top Qaeda operative. Mr. Pearl’s murder was praised by a leading ideologue in a how-to manual that promoted the tactic of kidnapping foreigners. Since then, the terror network has turned to abducting Westerners to finance itself — seizing more than 50 foreigners in the past five years, almost all of whom were released after their governments paid sizable ransoms, according to a review of the known cases by The Times.everybody pays them other than us and the UK, apparently. because....exceptionalism, i guess? DJ - sometimes when you post you use a phrase or word with which I'm not acquainted. Exceptionalism is such a word so I googled it. This was the first result: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalismNow apparently there is some debate as to the meaning of the word, so I'm not sure I'm clear on your usage. But if you intended to imply America was exceptional and didn't fit into the norm in this arena I'd have to agree. Consider this case. 50 foreigners returned in the past five years for $125M. That's about $2.5M per person. They wanted $132M for one American. Now I'm not in any way implying one american life is worth more than say someone from Spain. But this, I think, supports the fact that the American government cannot get into the business of paying for hostages because we are perceived to be a deep well of money (to be used to fund further terriorist operations). FWIW I'm fine with the family or employer doing whatever they can privately. But if the US government, with it's endless deep pockets were to start paying ransoms, every American abroad would be put in grave danger (IMHO).
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Post by Opti on Aug 22, 2014 13:43:56 GMT -5
I don't know what I would do, other than probably soil my trousers. But I am curious as to both how and why Mr. Foley gave such a calm and principled speech before his execution. First, why denounce America when they are going to kill you anyway? Second, how the heck does one remain so calm and even voiced, even rising and falling in timbre appropriately to convey his points? Third, why put the guilt on his brother?
It is curious. Probably because everyone responds differently to pressure and not everyone accepts they are going to be killed until it happens.
He was a reporter. He's used to reporting under stress. The only guy who knows is dead. So #1 & #2, easy to explain(IMO). Three he knows. Might hate his brother or maybe dissing him was code.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 22, 2014 13:51:44 GMT -5
everybody pays them other than us and the UK, apparently. because....exceptionalism, i guess? Consider this case. 50 foreigners returned in the past five years for $125M. That's about $2.5M per person. They wanted $132M for one American. Now I'm not in any way implying one american life is worth more than say someone from Spain. But this, I think, supports the fact that the American government cannot get into the business of paying for hostages because we are perceived to be a deep well of money (to be used to fund further terriorist operations). The Captain-I don't think (and I read elsewhere but cannot find it right now) that the kidnappers never really expected the $132 million to be paid. In my mind it was more of a message to the U.S. of "Hey America-we are not even going to bother ransoming off Foley. We shall take Foley's life for the lives you took by bombing and killing us as of late."
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 22, 2014 13:54:18 GMT -5
I agree with you, here. He wasn't sent there by the government like a soldier. We have no obligation to provide personal protection for every citizen once they leave our borders.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 22, 2014 13:57:02 GMT -5
Consider this case. 50 foreigners returned in the past five years for $125M. That's about $2.5M per person. They wanted $132M for one American. Now I'm not in any way implying one american life is worth more than say someone from Spain. But this, I think, supports the fact that the American government cannot get into the business of paying for hostages because we are perceived to be a deep well of money (to be used to fund further terriorist operations). The Captain-I don't think (and I read elsewhere but cannot find it right now) that the kidnappers never really expected the $132 million to be paid. In my mind it was more of a message to the U.S. of "Hey America-we are not even going to bother ransoming off Foley. We shall take Foley's life for the lives you took by bombing and killing us as of late." Tenn - I know I tend to be a bit too literal at times, but this is what I read in the second article which I linked. Maybe they were using that as a starting point for negotiation? Did I misunderstand? "In fact, until recently, ISIS had a very different list of demands for Mr. Foley: The group pressed the United States to provide a multimillion-dollar ransom for his release, according to a representative of his family and a former hostage held alongside him. The United States — unlike several European countries that have funneled millions to the terror group to spare the lives of their citizens — refused to pay."
My read of the above is that they were first in it for the money, and then it only became about "principles" once they knew they couldn't get cash for his release.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 22, 2014 14:07:24 GMT -5
The Captain-I don't think (and I read elsewhere but cannot find it right now) that the kidnappers never really expected the $132 million to be paid. In my mind it was more of a message to the U.S. of "Hey America-we are not even going to bother ransoming off Foley. We shall take Foley's life for the lives you took by bombing and killing us as of late." Tenn - I know I tend to be a bit too literal at times, but this is what I read in the second article which I linked. Maybe they were using that as a starting point for negotiation? Did I misunderstand? "In fact, until recently, ISIS had a very different list of demands for Mr. Foley: The group pressed the United States to provide a multimillion-dollar ransom for his release, according to a representative of his family and a former hostage held alongside him. The United States — unlike several European countries that have funneled millions to the terror group to spare the lives of their citizens — refused to pay."
My read of the above is that they were first in it for the money, and then it only became about "principles" once they knew they couldn't get cash for his release. The Captain-you brought up a very good point earlier on the average ransom money paid. Why was the American's ransom about $120 million dollars more than the average ransom demands. It is my own personal opinion the kidnappers were never really serious about that much of a ransom and of all their captives, they would get the biggest bang of publicity if they murdered Foley. Foley may have been worth a few million bucks months ago but his real value changed once the bombing of ISIS began. It's my opinion Foley's fate was decided months ago. Again, just my opinion.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 14:07:42 GMT -5
everybody pays them other than us and the UK, apparently. because....exceptionalism, i guess? DJ - sometimes when you post you use a phrase or word with which I'm not acquainted. Exceptionalism is such a word so I googled it. This was the first result: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalismNow apparently there is some debate as to the meaning of the word, so I'm not sure I'm clear on your usage. But if you intended to imply America was exceptional and didn't fit into the norm in this arena I'd have to agree. i meant it ironically, but you got it well enough. congrats.
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mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on Aug 22, 2014 14:09:52 GMT -5
i'm kinda for whatever works to bring people home. so, i don't really have what you might call a "principled position", like the rest of y'all. Every ransom paid is used to fund the bad guys. Every ransom that is paid also encourages the bad guys to kidnap someone else to get paid again.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 14:13:34 GMT -5
i'm kinda for whatever works to bring people home. so, i don't really have what you might call a "principled position", like the rest of y'all. Every ransom paid is used to fund the bad guys. Every ransom that is paid also encourages the bad guys to kidnap someone else to get paid again. we kill enough bad guys, imo. rewarding a few doesn't bother me. like i say, i am quite unprincipled on this. i know that. i am not trying to convince anyone i am right.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 14:21:23 GMT -5
Parents had hoped to negotiate with Foley captors
I wonder if a poster or two will find fault with the Foley family for communicating via email with their son's captors. I know one poster who stated the father of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl should be hanged and thrown into Gitmo for treason against the United States because he communicated via email with his son's captors in an attempt to try and gain his son's release. While the two cases are very different, the actions and goal of the parents were the same: the safe release of their children through email dialogue with the captors. I personally find no fault with either sets of parents trying to help their sons gain their freedom through engaging the captors. I basically agree with you here that the parents are free to obtain release for their children. However they were not "children" but adult offspring who are responsible for their own actions which placed them in harms way. Few private citizens have the $$ to really help terrorist organizations in any way, so that really isn't an issue. I'm against governments paying their release for all the usual arguments.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 22, 2014 16:23:03 GMT -5
Parents had hoped to negotiate with Foley captors
I wonder if a poster or two will find fault with the Foley family for communicating via email with their son's captors. I know one poster who stated the father of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl should be hanged and thrown into Gitmo for treason against the United States because he communicated via email with his son's captors in an attempt to try and gain his son's release. While the two cases are very different, the actions and goal of the parents were the same: the safe release of their children through email dialogue with the captors. I personally find no fault with either sets of parents trying to help their sons gain their freedom through engaging the captors. I basically agree with you here that the parents are free to obtain release for their children. However they were not "children" but adult offspring who are responsible for their own actions which placed them in harms way. Few private citizens have the $$ to really help terrorist organizations in any way, so that really isn't an issue. I'm against governments paying their release for all the usual arguments. You assumed i used the word 'children' as if the two men were 5-year-olds. I used the word 'children' in the manner of them being the sons (or daughters) of the parents in my post. Singularly, they may refer to their son or daughter as 'son' or 'daughter' when speaking of one of their 'offspring', but when in conversation, most parents, regardless of their multiple offspring's ages, will collectively refer to them as 'children" as in 'My children have wonderful families of their own.' But yes, you are correct these were adult men who placed themselves in situations where danger does exist. But they are the children of the parents mentioned in my post.
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on Aug 22, 2014 16:24:02 GMT -5
I don't know what I would do, other than probably soil my trousers. But I am curious as to both how and why Mr. Foley gave such a calm and principled speech before his execution. First, why denounce America when they are going to kill you anyway? Second, how the heck does one remain so calm and even voiced, even rising and falling in timbre appropriately to convey his points? Third, why put the guilt on his brother?
It is curious. Drugs!
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Post by Shooby on Aug 22, 2014 16:28:26 GMT -5
Paying for hostages will only open the flood gates. It simply isn't going to work. And, we Americans actually think we can BUY off radical islam. You can't. They aren't motivated by money like most of us here.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 22, 2014 16:29:21 GMT -5
I don't know what I would do, other than probably soil my trousers. But I am curious as to both how and why Mr. Foley gave such a calm and principled speech before his execution. First, why denounce America when they are going to kill you anyway? Second, how the heck does one remain so calm and even voiced, even rising and falling in timbre appropriately to convey his points? Third, why put the guilt on his brother?
It is curious. Possibly hope? Hope in that there may be a different outcome than what appears to be happening?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 22, 2014 16:30:26 GMT -5
You can't appease and reward bullies. It doesn't work, it has never worked and it never will work.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 16:42:07 GMT -5
You can't appease and reward bullies. It doesn't work, it has never worked and it never will work. totally true, but unfortunately, we do it all the time. Reagan did it with the Contras and Saddam. Carter did it with the Indonesian Army. the list is endless. i'd love it if we stopped. we won't.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 16:42:57 GMT -5
Paying for hostages will only open the flood gates. It simply isn't going to work. And, we Americans actually think we can BUY off radical islam. You can't. They aren't motivated by money like most of us here. agreed. what do you think buys them off?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 22, 2014 16:48:00 GMT -5
Nothing. You can only kill them.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 17:07:40 GMT -5
Nothing. You can only kill them. disagree, but thanks for answering.
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Post by Shooby on Aug 22, 2014 17:13:25 GMT -5
You're welcome.
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