The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 22, 2014 17:16:17 GMT -5
Paying for hostages will only open the flood gates. It simply isn't going to work. And, we Americans actually think we can BUY off radical islam. You can't. They aren't motivated by money like most of us here. agreed. what do you think buys them off? It's an interesting question DJ - what do you think buys them off, and would you find it acceptable if that price was expected to be paid in America? I don't know, I can't see how these radicals can be reasoned with, and dread the day they get any kind of foothold on this side of the globe.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 22, 2014 17:18:10 GMT -5
Paying them ONLY will encourage more of the same. And, it will also encourage other factions from the outside who look on and see some other group getting paid off then, they will try too. If you want to endanger Americans all across the globe even more than they already are, by all means, pay terrorists.
Well, I guess, Obama's Apology Tour didn't work out so well, now did it?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 22, 2014 17:46:03 GMT -5
I don't know what I would do, other than probably soil my trousers. But I am curious as to both how and why Mr. Foley gave such a calm and principled speech before his execution. First, why denounce America when they are going to kill you anyway? Second, how the heck does one remain so calm and even voiced, even rising and falling in timbre appropriately to convey his points? Third, why put the guilt on his brother?
It is curious. I'm guessing they wrote his speech for him & probably made him say it many times. Wasn't there another hostage present...probably used him as leverage to get him to say it. Even if you know when you finish your speech you will get executed, you still may do it to avoid torture or witnessing another getting tortured because you refused. Or maybe he thought he would be allowed to live if it was good enough
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 18:42:30 GMT -5
i'm kinda for whatever works to bring people home. so, i don't really have what you might call a "principled position", like the rest of y'all. Every ransom paid is used to fund the bad guys. Every ransom that is paid also encourages the bad guys to kidnap someone else to get paid again. Agreed. And this is why I am 100% AGAINST paying of ransoms by governments. It only fuels their drive to collect more of them. Yes... terrorists will occasionally try to cash in this way even if we never give in... but if we give in it would stop being an "occasional" attempt.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 18:51:59 GMT -5
agreed. what do you think buys them off? It's an interesting question DJ - what do you think buys them off, and would you find it acceptable if that price was expected to be paid in America? I don't know, I can't see how these radicals can be reasoned with, and dread the day they get any kind of foothold on this side of the globe. oh, they can be reasoned with. their actions are quite rational. they only seem irrational because we never hear about why they do what they do.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 22, 2014 19:02:40 GMT -5
Probably, but why bother? ISIS are scum. Like the Nazi's. Even if you could reason with them, they aren't worth the effort. They should be completely and utterly destroyed, down to the last fucking man if possible, as a lesson to future ass puppets who might try the same shenanigans.
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 22, 2014 20:54:57 GMT -5
What a righteous bunch where they have to cover their faces while they murder people. Less Nazi, more KKK. People that think they have the moral high ground do not hide who they are. I am on board with it- they need to be purged from humanity.
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Post by Shooby on Aug 22, 2014 21:03:13 GMT -5
I don't know what I would do, other than probably soil my trousers. But I am curious as to both how and why Mr. Foley gave such a calm and principled speech before his execution. First, why denounce America when they are going to kill you anyway? Second, how the heck does one remain so calm and even voiced, even rising and falling in timbre appropriately to convey his points? Third, why put the guilt on his brother?
It is curious. He was scared schitless and did what he was told.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 22, 2014 21:23:59 GMT -5
I'd be on board with an official policy of:
"America. We don't pay ransom. We pay BACK!"
Put whatever government exists there (wherever) on notice that we expect them to control their citizens and get our people back, and that if they refuse or plead helplessness they better stay out of our way.
Paying only encourages more violence and terror.
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Post by Opti on Aug 22, 2014 21:28:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately this is true.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 22, 2014 22:50:02 GMT -5
This bunch of wasted DNA is nothing more than a gathering of sociopaths from all over the world. This gives them an excuse to do what they like best - kill and create chaos and fear. It has little to do with Islam and everything to do with sociopathy.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Aug 22, 2014 23:15:12 GMT -5
i'm kinda for whatever works to bring people home. so, i don't really have what you might call a "principled position", like the rest of y'all. Every ransom paid is used to fund the bad guys. Every ransom that is paid also encourages the bad guys to kidnap someone else to get paid again. All very true. But if it was my child - I wouldn't have cared. I would have wanted US to bring him home.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 22, 2014 23:27:02 GMT -5
Nothing. You can only kill them. Kill them. Find their 'imam', kill him. kill their pet goat. salt the earth where they used to live.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 22, 2014 23:31:19 GMT -5
I'd be on board with an official policy of:
"America. We don't pay ransom. We pay BACK!"
Put whatever government exists there (wherever) on notice that we expect them to control their citizens and get our people back, and that if they refuse or plead helplessness they better stay out of our way.
Paying only encourages more violence and terror. Does anyone here know why there are no hijackings of Israeli airplanes? The answer is very simple, and it's not a cockpit vault, or armed pilots, and 'air marshalls'. Israeli society has accepted this, we never would- but the minute an Israeli airplane is hijacked, everyone on board is considered legally dead. Any and all force necessary to retake the plane, and kill the hijackers will be used- and if they kill a few of their own, or shoot down the whole plane- that's just the price of Israel's security. Not saying I agree with it, but if these asshats knew it didn't matter who they had, once we had them in our sites, the bombs would follow-- they'd quit this shit.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 22, 2014 23:33:10 GMT -5
What a righteous bunch where they have to cover their faces while they murder people. Less Nazi, more KKK. People that think they have the moral high ground do not hide who they are. I am on board with it- they need to be purged from humanity. I agree. I also would have agreed to labeling the KKK a terrorist organization, their members illegal combatants, and rounding them up and shooting them.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 23:34:38 GMT -5
Probably, but why bother? don't know. i bring it up because it is so often dismissed as an option, without consideration. let's say that this entire thing could be solved by closing down one US Airbase with no strategic importance. should we do it? i just think it is stone cold stupid to not now or even attempt to understand what motivates your enemies. don't you?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 23:36:08 GMT -5
Nothing. You can only kill them. Kill them. Find their 'imam', kill him. kill their pet goat. salt the earth where they used to live. good recipe for 1000 years of intergenerational terrorism, there. if you decide to carry this out, let me know where you are heading, and i will make sure that where i am heading is a point on God's Green Earth that is furthest from you, Paul.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 23:36:44 GMT -5
Unfortunately this is true. is it?
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 23:40:23 GMT -5
This bunch of wasted DNA is nothing more than a gathering of sociopaths from all over the world. This gives them an excuse to do what they like best - kill and create chaos and fear. It has little to do with Islam and everything to do with sociopathy. i would argue that it has essentially nothing to do with Islam- but i think the hatred is much narrower than could be described by sociopathy. for example, i doubt that ISIS has much against China. i doubt they have much against Australia. or South Africa. or any of a hundred relatively Western nations that have little or no impact on the ME or what they do. no, their hatred is quite specific. it is hard to grasp that when it is YOU that they hate.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 23:43:10 GMT -5
Every ransom paid is used to fund the bad guys. Every ransom that is paid also encourages the bad guys to kidnap someone else to get paid again. All very true. But if it was my child - I wouldn't have cared. I would have wanted US to bring him home. this is why i called myself unprincipled on this matter. i was thinking of my son.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 22, 2014 23:44:40 GMT -5
They will hate that which will bring about the loudest howl, and create the most chaos. That's their goal and it's their only goal. They'll beat their chests and rattle their swords while destroying everything decent in their paths. No, it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Islam, and neither do they. We're the target because we make the most visible target and, therefore, draw the most attention to them.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 22, 2014 23:46:31 GMT -5
All very true. But if it was my child - I wouldn't have cared. I would have wanted US to bring him home. this is why i called myself unprincipled on this matter. i was thinking of my son. Most of us, as individuals, would feel that way. However, those who have lived in developing countries are well aware there are inherent dangers in doing so. I don't think any of us ever expected the US to come riding to our rescue if we found ourselves under fire. We found ourselves in that position in Iran in 1978/79. Our company got us out. We didn't expect a war to be waged in our defense.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 23:46:49 GMT -5
They will hate that which will bring about the loudest howl, and create the most chaos. That's their goal and it's their only goal. They'll beat their chests and rattle their swords while destroying everything decent in their paths. No, it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Islam, and neither do they. We're the target because we make the most visible target and, therefore, draw the most attention to them. mmhmm- do you like to read?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 22, 2014 23:47:44 GMT -5
I'm a voracious reader, dj. I'll read tomato soup cans if there's nothing else around.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2014 23:49:10 GMT -5
I'm a voracious reader, dj. I'll read tomato soup cans if there's nothing else around. ok- have you read EITHER of these: Robert Baer: Sleeping With The Devil Pape: Dying To Win ?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 22, 2014 23:49:54 GMT -5
I've read Sleeping With the Devil, but not Dying to Win. I'll look for it, though.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 0:06:19 GMT -5
I've read Sleeping With the Devil, but not Dying to Win. I'll look for it, though. Sleeping With The Devil points out OUR strategic logic in the region, what we are trying to gain, what we stand to lose, and partially what we are up against. Dying To Win points out THEIR strategic logic in the region, what they are trying to gain, what they stand to lose, and what they are willing to risk to achieve it. i think that anyone that really wants to understand BOTH sides of this struggle should read both of these. incidentally, i bought my copy of the Pape book used. it came from a Marine Bookstore. i think a lot of people get the terrorist mindset completely wrong. they are fundamentally conservative and devout- but they are motivated by a lot of issues that are hard for us to understand. consider a term like "corruption". most of us in the West hear this term, and several things comes to mind. one of them is a simple fall from innocence: to be corrupted is to have a beer when you are 18, or smoke your first joint, or look at a girly mag. we can get past it, and even laugh about it. but for someone devout and conservative, here or abroad, it is more like a "fall from grace". it is taking out off the right hand of God and putting you at the right hand of Satan. if someone devout considers you corrupted, he not only wants nothing to do with you, but he considers you dead to him. that kind of talk sounds crazy to most people, but that is how someone like Sayd Kutb thinks. you know it. i know it. the proximate goal for suicide terrorists is not to shock such a person- they are already lost. it is to save another person who is not yet corrupted. and the way to do that is to remove the influence. if you think about that for a while: how to do that- there are not a lot of ways that can be done. but here is something to consider: the proximate targets for terrorism are nearly always seen as "foreign occupiers" in the most general sense. here is another thing that the targets have in common: they belong to modern "democratic" states. anyway, i have mentioned this book, but not it's conclusions in detail, on this board MANY TIMES. as of yet, i don't think anyone has read this book, but i would highly recommend it. and that goes double for military folk. know thy enemy.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 23, 2014 0:15:26 GMT -5
Sounds like you learned a good deal about the mind-set of some of these folks from the book, dj. I'll definitely check it out. Another thing to realize is that each individual in those middle-eastern Islamic societies is an individual in ways we can't fathom. They act individually and without any compunction if they believe themselves to be in the right (for whatever reason - religious or otherwise). They don't think in a societal way, as we do. You've really got to see it, and live with it, to know it's there, but once you actually see it, you understand more.
There are those within these terrorist organizations who are motivated by their religious beliefs. I'd not deny that. The trouble is, they're not particular about the motivations of followers, and the followers aren't particular about what they're following, necessarily. Those who come from the US, or Australia, or Germany, or Holland, or England ... they don't give a hoot about who's leading, what that person might believe, what might be the beliefs that structure the actions of such groups, or why they're doing what they're doing. They're a lot more interested in what they can do with impunity - even to the point of being idolized for their barbarity. That's not going to happen in their home countries, but it can sure happen if they can affiliate with one of these terrorist groups. All of a sudden, they're a star. They're a star because they have absolutely no inhibitions to prevent them from behaving like what they are ... vicious murderers. They're the vampires. They feed on the religious zeal of those whose jihad they claim to embrace, and they're not alone in there. Not every middle-eastener who participates in these horrors is motivated by religious zeal, either.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2014 0:27:59 GMT -5
Sounds like you learned a good deal about the mind-set of some of these folks from the book, dj. I'll definitely check it out. Another thing to realize is that each individual in those middle-eastern Islamic societies is an individual in ways we can't fathom. They act individually and without any compunction if they believe themselves to be in the right (for whatever reason - religious or otherwise). They don't think in a societal way, as we do. You've really got to see it, and live with it, to know it's there, but once you actually see it, you understand more. There are those within these terrorist organizations who are motivated by their religious beliefs. I'd not deny that. The trouble is, they're not particular about the motivations of followers, and the followers aren't particular about what they're following, necessarily. Those who come from the US, or Australia, or Germany, or Holland, or England ... they don't give a hoot about who's leading, what that person might believe, what might be the beliefs that structure the actions of such groups, or why they're doing what they're doing. They're a lot more interested in what they can do with impunity - even to the point of being idolized for their barbarity. That's not going to happen in their home countries, but it can sure happen if they can affiliate with one of these terrorist groups. All of a sudden, they're a star. They're a star because they have absolutely no inhibitions to prevent them from behaving like what they are ... vicious murderers. They're the vampires. They feed on the religious zeal of those whose jihad they claim to embrace, and they're not alone in there. Not every middle-eastener who participates in these horrors is motivated by religious zeal, either. Pape would agree with most of what you said. martyrdom is another important factor in these societies. what i find interesting is that most terrorists, it turns out, are not what people think, demographically. most people think they are poor, uneducated kids that come from abusive households, where they were taught to hate white people. the truth is that most are educated and middle class. they suffer from the same disillusionment as many here in the West. their response is a yearning for something "purer", and this leads them to want to cleanse not only themselves, but their societies of the "evil within". it is on one level utterly insane, and on another, completely rational, as is their response. it is, in fact, quite similar to what Leo Strauss thought. i wish they would teach this kind of thing in schools. but they never will. it is so much easier to motivate people with fear. if we think that terrorists are utterly irrational and depraved (this is why i think Bush was the perfect foil for OBL, is that each thought this of the other), then there is nothing left to do but kill them, as many have suggested on this board, even during this discussion. and, indeed, you hear some Americans saying that about other Americans that they think are totally irrational and depraved. what other response can you muster if someone can't be reasoned with? if, on the other hand, you can see the logic that motivates them, you can no longer see them as irrational and depraved- just warped by their beliefs and experiences, and existential fears and doubts. now, it may be true that this may not be fixable- but it is also true that they won't respond to the same stimulii as someone who is NOT warped. i think the greatest challenge in this is in the "what can be done" part. after all- what they are generally asking is to be left alone- but clearly that is not something we are either capable of doing in the most general sense, or want to do, in the more specific one. so, then it comes to this: how can we modify our goals so that they are more subversive, and less overt? i think we had it right in the 50's and 60's, and not so much since then: we showed them what they were missing, rather than just plopping ourselves down in their messes. we should go back to that, imo. but if you or someone else reads that book, we can discuss it, rather than just arguing from two totally different perspectives.
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Post by dondub on Aug 23, 2014 0:34:18 GMT -5
Does anyone here know why there are no hijackings of Israeli airplanes? The answer is very simple, and it's not a cockpit vault, or armed pilots, and 'air marshalls'. Israeli society has accepted this, we never would- but the minute an Israeli airplane is hijacked, everyone on board is considered legally dead. Any and all force necessary to retake the plane, and kill the hijackers will be used- and if they kill a few of their own, or shoot down the whole plane- that's just the price of Israel's security. Not saying I agree with it, but if these asshats knew it didn't matter who they had, once we had them in our sites, the bombs would follow-- they'd quit this shit.
Whatever. In the meantime the Israelis are notorious for negotiating with terrorists to free hostages. They will even do a 1000 to 1 split if necessary. crooksandliars.com/2014/06/will-republicans-criticize-israel
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