AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 2, 2014 16:20:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you are grouping those who wore flag apparel together with those who made threats to "f*** up the white boys." And I don't know how else I can say that the threat of violence should not be the cause to suppress Constitutional rights. Peace at any price is no peace at all. Those who wore flag apparel and those who made threats to f up white boys are the same.The goal of their behavior is the same. The goal of the teen wearing the flag apparel is to provoke and incite an argument by playing on the others perceived feelings of being disrespected which will ultimately end in a physical confrontation. The wearing of the flag apparel by these teens is not meant to be a symbol of patriotism, it is meant as a sign of disrespect. It is deliberate and very calculated to elicit a particular response. In approx 85% of altercations where a teenager has been murdered or critically injured, the catalyst is commonly identified as some sort of disrespect by one or both parties. You are trying to apply your values and definitions to a situation where they do not apply. You are trying to apply logic to a teenage behavior. After all my years of working with teens in institutional settings I can honestly tell you that trick never works. Not only that, the school has an obligation to keep kids from beating the shit out of each other while on school grounds. They are obligated to keep the peace and foster an environment to learning. No child has a Constitutional right to wear any clothing which is not deemed appropriate to school on any given day. Just because the T-shirt has an American flag doesn't make it any different than a T-shirt that has any other symbol or words which the school has deemed inappropriate for school attire. It's the same thing as bans in schools on colored bandanas. In some schools, the wearing of a certain color bandana is a symbol that you belong to a certain group, you don't mind displaying your gang identity, you don't give two shits and anyone else with a different color bandana can feel free to bring it on.Physical Fighting Among Teenagers Physical fighting among teenagers is a serious problem in the United States. A 1999 national survey of high school students found that in the past year: More than 1 in 3 students had been in a physical fight; About 1 in 7 had been in a physical fight on school property; and About 1 in 9 of those who fought had been hurt badly enough to need medical treatment.1 Physical fights typically involve two or more teens who have chosen to use physical force to resolve a conflict or argument. Because physical fights are so common, many people dismiss them as a normal part of growing up. While it is true that teens (and teenage boys in particular) have always engaged in fistfights, today, many teens carry deadly weapons. In 1999, more than 1 in 4 male high school students said they had carried a weapon in the past month,2 and about 1 in 11 reported carrying a gun.3 Fights that involve weapons, such as guns, knives, and clubs, are a major cause of serious injuries and death among teenagers.Facts on teen fighting Why do some teens fight? When junior and senior high students around the nation were asked to identify the causes of the most recent fights they had witnessed, most frequent responses were: Someone insulted someone else or treated them disrespectfully (54 percent). There was an ongoing feud or disagreement (44 percent). www.keepschoolssafe.org/students/fighting.htmIt's far more important to me that my child or your child comes home from school alive not wearing a t-shirt with a flag than draped in an American flag laying on a slab at the morgue. There is not a single constitutional right that serves you when you are dead and at the morgue. If you are willing to serve up any teenager to protect some perceived right which does not exist to wear an American flag to school at the risk of them winding up dead or permanently disabled because of some internet meme and some quotes about liberty and security which also really don't apply in this situation I just don't know what else I can say to you. Wearing a shirt with the American flag is the same thing to you as wearing gang colors, and protecting students at school from violence is to curb any action the violent group may deem disrespectful. Got it. As far as this "perceived right which does not exist", you may have missed this in the original article: "Judges said the civil rights case forced them to weigh the difficult question of what takes precedence: students' free speech rights or school safety concerns?"
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 2, 2014 16:29:10 GMT -5
These punks shouldn't be wearing the flag on shirts anyway. Show some respect to your country. If you don't wanto follow the rules you can move to Mexico. "Therefore, a flag includes any representation of it of any substance, with stars and stripes of any number. This would include T-shirts and ties. Other references in the Flag Code relevant to this question are: The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. (section ) It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like (section 8i) [It should not be] printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes (section 8i) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature. (section 8g) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. (section 8j) The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section ): "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."" www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htmWhat I learned is that if it has grommets, it's a flag, and that is what the code references. Like, this would be wrong: But this would be okay: I am open to the idea that what I thought I knew is wrong, but if it is, I don't understand the Olympic apparel choices.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 17:43:45 GMT -5
it must be tough always being the smartest ones on every thread The case was about the necessity for school administrators to have the power to regulate attire choices of students. Them not having that authority is what people need to think about.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Mar 2, 2014 19:01:18 GMT -5
"Wearing a shirt with the American flag is the same thing to you as wearing gang colors, and protecting students at school from violence is to curb any action the violent group may deem disrespectful. Got it."
No, it isn't the same thing to me at all. This isn't about me. Any group of teens that engages in incitement of the violence is a part of the violence. It takes two to tango. If the perception of the teens is that when they wear the American flag it's gonna piss their classmates off enough that it's gonna start shit, they are part of the problem.
As far as this "perceived right which does not exist", you may have missed this in the original article: "Judges said the civil rights case forced them to weigh the difficult question of what takes precedence: students' free speech rights or school safety concerns?"
I am aware of what the original article stated. It's school. they are teenagers.
With that, I'm done.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 2, 2014 19:19:57 GMT -5
I don't think anyone cares if they celebrate it, but I guess it's too much to ask for them to be tolerant enough to respect the country their in, and their flag. So is ìt safe to assume you do not condone the Irish flag being waved by thousands during St. Patrick's day parades in the U.S.? It's fine with me if anyone waves any flag they damn well please any time of year. I don't care if people wave around a Mexican flag or Irish flag or Indian flag or a gay rights flag or whatever. But I do expect people to be tolerant of each other's flags. All should be allowed all the time. It's called being tolerant and respecting each other's heritage.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 2, 2014 20:01:04 GMT -5
Nice twist on the title. The flag was never hidden. Nobody hid the flag. We're talking about kids wearing T-shirts, not the flag. The whole premise is made ridiculous because of the effort to put a sensational spin on it. The court DID NOT rule to hide THE FLAG. Get a freaking grip!
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 2, 2014 20:35:05 GMT -5
More outrage over nothing. A simple dress code in place and this would be a non-issue. Heard this same crap over the gun shirt, the Bible verse shirt, and on and on.........School safety trumps any 'right' - thinking of in loco parentis here- if the parents are to dumb to control their kids then the school will deal with them when they get there.
And as far as civil rights applied to teenagers at school- think again- not the same level- just ask all of the ones that are drug tested for deciding to play a sport or have their lockers randomly searched. They are not adults- they are being supervised by adults and I will side with the school on this one. It's not about the flag at all- I am sure there was a flag on display at the school if not also in some classrooms on that day.
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 2, 2014 20:42:20 GMT -5
"Wearing a shirt with the American flag is the same thing to you as wearing gang colors, and protecting students at school from violence is to curb any action the violent group may deem disrespectful. Got it." No, it isn't the same thing to me at all. This isn't about me. Any group of teens that engages in incitement of the violence is a part of the violence. It takes two to tango. If the perception of the teens is that when they wear the American flag it's gonna piss their classmates off enough that it's gonna start shit, they are part of the problem.As far as this "perceived right which does not exist", you may have missed this in the original article: "Judges said the civil rights case forced them to weigh the difficult question of what takes precedence: students' free speech rights or school safety concerns?" I am aware of what the original article stated. It's school. they are teenagers. With that, I'm done. Well, I'm not sure who you quoted then, my apologies for assuming you agreed with it. Yes, it's school. Yes, they are teenagers. Judges still considered it a difficult question, so maybe, just maybe, it's not quite as simple as you think it should be. Have a nice evening.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 2, 2014 22:56:50 GMT -5
I still say it could have been avoided if they school focused on education, and not celebration. The only free time before school we had was on senior check day. They wore checked shirts in the school colors. Prophecies they wrote, and things they willed to other students were read out by the flagpole. Oooo the viciousness of some of the things that were willed. People were willed the ability to be as fine as they thought they were, and awards for being phoney, and all kinds of stuff.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 23:28:48 GMT -5
... The only free time before school we had was on senior check day. ... Wow, I never attended nor taught at a school that escorted every student directly from bus, car, or sidewalk to classroom every morning.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 2, 2014 23:32:08 GMT -5
As I posted before, the school limited the times that students could be dropped off. Teachers, and coaches were out there to keep order. It was not allowed to develop into a disorderly situation. Nobody had a party going on. Also, education was stressed first and foremost.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 23:58:01 GMT -5
As I posted before, the school limited the times that students could be dropped off. Teachers, and coaches were out there to keep order. It was not allowed to develop into a disorderly situation. Nobody had a party going on. Also, education was stressed first and foremost. I hear you. Totally foreign to my experience. Our time in the morning was ours until we had to be in class. By the time we were in high school, we met friends by their cars, talked, and listened to music. With 2000 students, the adults couldn't control all of us.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Mar 3, 2014 7:26:32 GMT -5
Not a problem here (the county I live in). All schools have uniforms (public and private). Don't know about the whole state though.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 3, 2014 10:13:36 GMT -5
I think uniforms are great when uniformity is the goal.
One of the reasons I left the Navy was that some mornings I would go to the closet and think, "Today I fell like wearing ..." Then I would put on the Uniform of the Day. Stifling.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 3, 2014 11:23:45 GMT -5
... Why weren't they all wearing US flag shirts? Most likely because the wearing of US flag shirts is not normal attire for teens in schools. They don't get the attention teenagers wish for unless worn on a particular day and strutted about in a particular fashion. When I was in High School, I had a sweatshirt with an eagle's head on it with "U.S.A" in big letters underneath. I wore that shirt often...so that must mean I was being disrespectful of people from other nations, huh?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 3, 2014 11:24:44 GMT -5
This is no different than white kids showing up at school with rebel flags on their shirts to piss of the black kids. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. it has nothing to do with the flag, it's the intent behind the action of displaying it. So all Mexican glags better be f'ing hidden on July 4th...if not the other 364 days after May 5th. Are they
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 3, 2014 11:26:25 GMT -5
Most likely because the wearing of US flag shirts is not normal attire for teens in schools. They don't get the attention teenagers wish for unless worn on a particular day and strutted about in a particular fashion. When I was in High School, I had a sweatshirt with an eagle's head on it with "U.S.A" in big letters underneath. I wore that shirt often...so that must mean I was being disrespectful of people from other nations, huh? Did your sweatshirt also have a replica of an American flag on it too?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 11:28:29 GMT -5
Most likely because the wearing of US flag shirts is not normal attire for teens in schools. They don't get the attention teenagers wish for unless worn on a particular day and strutted about in a particular fashion. When I was in High School, I had a sweatshirt with an eagle's head on it with "U.S.A" in big letters underneath. I wore that shirt often...so that must mean I was being disrespectful of people from other nations, huh? Knowing you, probably.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 3, 2014 11:31:52 GMT -5
Most likely because the wearing of US flag shirts is not normal attire for teens in schools. They don't get the attention teenagers wish for unless worn on a particular day and strutted about in a particular fashion. When I was in High School, I had a sweatshirt with an eagle's head on it with "U.S.A" in big letters underneath. I wore that shirt often...so that must mean I was being disrespectful of people from other nations, huh? Not at all. It was just a shirt you worn. Totally different situation than the topic of this thread.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 3, 2014 11:37:10 GMT -5
When I was in High School, I had a sweatshirt with an eagle's head on it with "U.S.A" in big letters underneath. I wore that shirt often...so that must mean I was being disrespectful of people from other nations, huh? Not at all. It was just a shirt you worn. Totally different situation than the topic of this thread. And if I had bought that shirt on May 4th, and the first day I wore it was May 5th? I don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, so, for me, its just another day. So what this school seems to be saying is: American kids aren't allowed to show pride in their own country on May 5th (a MEXICAN holiday). It is such outrageous bullshit. The mexican kids are the ones with the problem, the schools should deal with their piss-poor attitudes. But instead they choose to puss out because they don't want to seem "racially insensitive." So now the Mexican kids know they can get away with all kinds of shit, and just blame it on racial tensions. Nice work public schools - no wonder you're in the shitter academically.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 3, 2014 11:50:28 GMT -5
Not at all. It was just a shirt you worn. Totally different situation than the topic of this thread. And if I had bought that shirt on May 4th, and the first day I wore it was May 5th? I don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, so, for me, its just another day. So what this school seems to be saying is: American kids aren't allowed to show pride in their own country on May 5th (a MEXICAN holiday). It is such outrageous bullshit. The mexican kids are the ones with the problem, the schools should deal with their piss-poor attitudes. But instead they choose to puss out because they don't want to seem "racially insensitive." So now the Mexican kids know they can get away with all kinds of shit, and just blame it on racial tensions. Nice work public schools - no wonder you're in the shitter academically. Where in the 7 halls of Hell was it said American kids aren't allowed to show pride in their own country on May 5 (or any other day)? It wasn't, that's where. These particular kids decided to "show their pride" at a celebration being held for Cinco de Mayo. The school administration made a call. I agree with the call under the circumstances. You, on the other hand, may disagree. However, twisting the matter into a mountain when it's not even an ant hill is ludicrous.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 3, 2014 11:54:34 GMT -5
Not at all. It was just a shirt you worn. Totally different situation than the topic of this thread. And if I had bought that shirt on May 4th, and the first day I wore it was May 5th? I don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, so, for me, its just another day. So what this school seems to be saying is: American kids aren't allowed to show pride in their own country on May 5th (a MEXICAN holiday). It is such outrageous bullshit. The mexican kids are the ones with the problem, the schools should deal with their piss-poor attitudes. But instead they choose to puss out because they don't want to seem "racially insensitive." So now the Mexican kids know they can get away with all kinds of shit, and just blame it on racial tensions. Nice work public schools - no wonder you're in the shitter academically. The principal of the school asked a group of students to change clothing that they had selected to wear on a particular day in an attempt to create a problem and the school is at fault. Hmmmm.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 3, 2014 14:58:06 GMT -5
Pat, did you even read the article? I did. Apparently those who wore flag T-shirts in the past used an American flag and chanting to stir up shit with the students who celebrated Cinco de Mayo. This case is more about gangs that are perverting the use of flags than it is about patriotism.
I think the court decision was the right one. The flag T-shirts probably weren't ever worn in school except for this occasion. Rewarding shit-stirrers would have been a worse precedent IMO.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Mar 3, 2014 16:20:54 GMT -5
In the United States of America, one should be able to show pride in their country any damn time they please. HOWEVER...everyone here knows (or should know) based on the article, that's not what these kids were doing. They were trying to stir up trouble. To me, using a likeness of the American flag, with the intent to stir up trouble, is way more disrespectful to our flag than not being able to symbolize it on a shirt.
Anybody think that had the school not decided as they did and some white kids got hurt, those same parents who thought the t-shirts were ok would be sueing the hell out of the district for not doing more to protect their kids? The administration did the best they could do, IMO. Was the solution perfect? Probably not. But it's way better than a bunch of injured or dead kids.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 10:37:35 GMT -5
I don't think anyone cares if they celebrate it, but I guess it's too much to ask for them to be tolerant enough to respect the country their in, and their flag. So is ìt safe to assume you do not condone the Irish flag being waved by thousands during St. Patrick's day parades in the U.S.? i must have missed the story where the irish in Boston or new york attacked other american waving the American flag where might i find that story?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 4, 2014 10:46:55 GMT -5
So is ìt safe to assume you do not condone the Irish flag being waved by thousands during St. Patrick's day parades in the U.S.? i must have missed the story where the irish in Boston or new york attacked other american waving the American flag where might i find that story? Were the students ìn California physically attacking each other on Cinco de Mayo? The linked article ìn the opening post states the school's actions "presciently avoided an altercation". That means there was no fight or attack.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 4, 2014 11:28:42 GMT -5
Most likely because the wearing of US flag shirts is not normal attire for teens in schools. They don't get the attention teenagers wish for unless worn on a particular day and strutted about in a particular fashion. When I was in High School, I had a sweatshirt with an eagle's head on it with "U.S.A" in big letters underneath. I wore that shirt often...so that must mean I was being disrespectful of people from other nations, huh? that would depend on whether you wore it to nation of islam rallies or not.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 4, 2014 17:42:31 GMT -5
it strikes me as just one of the unintended negative consequences of the federal govt(and it's well heeled owners) allowing the invasion in the first place.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 4, 2014 18:09:14 GMT -5
i must have missed the story where the irish in Boston or new york attacked other american waving the American flag where might i find that story? Were the students ìn California physically attacking each other on Cinco de Mayo? The linked article ìn the opening post states the school's actions "presciently avoided an altercation". That means there was no fight or attack. A quote from the original case as cited in the Washington Post: www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/02/27/not-safe-to-display-american-flag-in-american-high-school/"On Cinco de Mayo in 2009, a year before the events relevant to this appeal, there was an altercation on campus between a group of predominantly Caucasian students and a group of Mexican students. The groups exchanged profanities and threats. Some students hung a makeshift American flag on one of the trees on campus, and as they did, the group of Caucasian students began clapping and chanting “USA.” A group of Mexican students had been walking around with the Mexican flag, and in response to the white students’ flag-raising, one Mexican student shouted “f*** them white boys, f*** them white boys.” When Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez told the student to stop using profane language, the student said, “But Rodriguez, they are racist. They are being racist. F*** them white boys. Let’s f*** them up.” Rodriguez removed the student from the area…." Another:"In the aftermath of the students’ departure from school, they received numerous threats from other students. D.G. was threatened by text message on May 6, and the same afternoon, received a threatening phone call from a caller saying he was outside of D.G.’s home. D.M. and M.D. were likewise threatened with violence, and a student at Live Oak overheard a group of classmates saying that some gang members would come down from San Jose to “take care of” the students. Because of these threats, the students did not go to school on May 7." This paragraph sums up my feeling about this situation better than I could state it myself:"And this is especially so because behavior that gets rewarded gets repeated. The school taught its students a simple lesson: If you dislike speech and want it suppressed, then you can get what you want by threatening violence against the speakers. The school will cave in, the speakers will be shut up, and you and your ideology will win. When thuggery pays, the result is more thuggery. Is that the education we want our students to be getting?" And finally, from the case summary itself: casetext.com/case/dariano-v-morgan-hill-unified-school-district
"A group of Mexican students asked Rodriguez why the Caucasian students "get to wear their flag out when we [sic] don’t get to wear our [sic] flag?" I take exception to several things here. I am an American, my flag is the American flag. During St. Patricks day, all Saints day, and St. Joseph's day I raise a glass of wine or beer, not the flag of another nation, in celebration. The thing I like the least is it appears to me these thugs do not identify themselves as American and were able to trample all over the rights of Americans by threatening violence. I would like to think this is not what this country stands for.
Finally, in all fairness, I don't understand why some students were allowed to wear apparel depecting one national flag, and the other group was restricted. Perhaps if both groups were allowed to equally demonstrate their pride in their (supposedly home) nation there would not have been a problem.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 4, 2014 19:52:54 GMT -5
Caucasian or American? Mexican or Hispanic? Interesting word choices.
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