AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 1, 2014 23:44:03 GMT -5
Then expel those who threaten violence to suppress a Constitutional right. They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. It's a school full of teenagers. They could give two shits about the American flag, the only reason they do it is to piss off others and start shit. You really want the American flag used for that? I don't. You really are not supporting their Constitutional rights of anything at all. You are supporting their right to be punks and perverse use of the flag. I'll admit that I don't know those students as well as you seem to, but I'm going to say that if the display of an American flag, in America, pisses you off to the point of violence and becoming a safety concern, then the problem is you, not the flag.
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 2, 2014 0:00:11 GMT -5
This is no different than white kids showing up at school with rebel flags on their shirts to piss of the black kids. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. it has nothing to do with the flag, it's the intent behind the action of displaying it. It is probably hard to understand because it is nothing like the rebel flag, unless you believe the American flag is a symbol of racism. Who gets to decide what their intent is, and why is thought a bigger concern than action?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 0:13:15 GMT -5
This one really ain't rocket science.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Mar 2, 2014 0:15:11 GMT -5
This is no different than white kids showing up at school with rebel flags on their shirts to piss of the black kids. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. it has nothing to do with the flag, it's the intent behind the action of displaying it. It is probably hard to understand because it is nothing like the rebel flag, unless you believe the American flag is a symbol of racism. Who gets to decide what their intent is, and why is thought a bigger concern than action? It's the teens that do this that decide the intent. They use benign symbols such as colored bandanas, certain color hats, and even flags to posture, in what they think is too covert to get themselves in trouble. Most people wouldn't think twice about an American kid wearing a T-shirt with a flag on it. But when you put it in a school setting with 1000 other teens who are looking for an excuse to say someone disrespected them so they can pound the shit out of them, it's a different ball game.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Mar 2, 2014 0:17:02 GMT -5
"then the problem is you, not the flag." Did you miss the part where I said these are teenagers?
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 2, 2014 0:30:51 GMT -5
It is probably hard to understand because it is nothing like the rebel flag, unless you believe the American flag is a symbol of racism. Who gets to decide what their intent is, and why is thought a bigger concern than action? It's the teens that do this that decide the intent. They use benign symbols such as colored bandanas, certain color hats, and even flags to posture, in what they think is too covert to get themselves in trouble. Most people wouldn't think twice about an American kid wearing a T-shirt with a flag on it. But when you put it in a school setting with 1000 other teens who are looking for an excuse to say someone disrespected them so they can pound the shit out of them, it's a different ball game. Right. I just happen to not support the concept of taking away someone's rights to appease those looking for an excuse to say someone disrespected them so they can pound the shit out of them.
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 2, 2014 0:33:00 GMT -5
"then the problem is you, not the flag." Did you miss the part where I said these are teenagers? Not at all, I just don't see it as an excuse to do wrong.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Mar 2, 2014 0:39:30 GMT -5
"then the problem is you, not the flag." Did you miss the part where I said these are teenagers? Not at all, I just don't see it as an excuse to do wrong. Nobody said it was an excuse to do wrong. But if you have a better solution to keeping about a thousand inner city teenagers of a diverse ethnicity/ gender/ race/ sexuality coupled with bad attitudes, stupidity, raging hormones, non-supportive parents and poverty in school to at a minimum attempt to engage them in an education instead of roaming the streets and committing crime, mischief and mayhem than to simply tell them they cannot display bandanas, flag and colored hats while on school grounds, by all means,we would all like to hear it!
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Mar 2, 2014 0:57:20 GMT -5
Not at all, I just don't see it as an excuse to do wrong. Nobody said it was an excuse to do wrong. But if you have a better solution to keeping about a thousand inner city teenagers of a diverse ethnicity/ gender/ race/ sexuality coupled with bad attitudes, stupidity, raging hormones, non-supportive parents and poverty in school to at a minimum attempt to engage them in an education instead of roaming the streets and committing crime, mischief and mayhem than to simply tell them they cannot display bandanas, flag and colored hats while on school grounds, by all means,we would all like to hear it! I'm not sure why you are grouping those who wore flag apparel together with those who made threats to "f*** up the white boys." And I don't know how else I can say that the threat of violence should not be the cause to suppress Constitutional rights. Peace at any price is no peace at all.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Mar 2, 2014 7:57:08 GMT -5
Nobody said it was an excuse to do wrong. But if you have a better solution to keeping about a thousand inner city teenagers of a diverse ethnicity/ gender/ race/ sexuality coupled with bad attitudes, stupidity, raging hormones, non-supportive parents and poverty in school to at a minimum attempt to engage them in an education instead of roaming the streets and committing crime, mischief and mayhem than to simply tell them they cannot display bandanas, flag and colored hats while on school grounds, by all means,we would all like to hear it! I'm not sure why you are grouping those who wore flag apparel together with those who made threats to "f*** up the white boys." And I don't know how else I can say that the threat of violence should not be the cause to suppress Constitutional rights. Peace at any price is no peace at all. Those who wore flag apparel and those who made threats to f up white boys are the same.The goal of their behavior is the same. The goal of the teen wearing the flag apparel is to provoke and incite an argument by playing on the others perceived feelings of being disrespected which will ultimately end in a physical confrontation. The wearing of the flag apparel by these teens is not meant to be a symbol of patriotism, it is meant as a sign of disrespect. It is deliberate and very calculated to elicit a particular response. In approx 85% of altercations where a teenager has been murdered or critically injured, the catalyst is commonly identified as some sort of disrespect by one or both parties. You are trying to apply your values and definitions to a situation where they do not apply. You are trying to apply logic to a teenage behavior. After all my years of working with teens in institutional settings I can honestly tell you that trick never works. Not only that, the school has an obligation to keep kids from beating the shit out of each other while on school grounds. They are obligated to keep the peace and foster an environment to learning. No child has a Constitutional right to wear any clothing which is not deemed appropriate to school on any given day. Just because the T-shirt has an American flag doesn't make it any different than a T-shirt that has any other symbol or words which the school has deemed inappropriate for school attire. It's the same thing as bans in schools on colored bandanas. In some schools, the wearing of a certain color bandana is a symbol that you belong to a certain group, you don't mind displaying your gang identity, you don't give two shits and anyone else with a different color bandana can feel free to bring it on.Physical Fighting Among Teenagers Physical fighting among teenagers is a serious problem in the United States. A 1999 national survey of high school students found that in the past year: More than 1 in 3 students had been in a physical fight; About 1 in 7 had been in a physical fight on school property; and About 1 in 9 of those who fought had been hurt badly enough to need medical treatment.1 Physical fights typically involve two or more teens who have chosen to use physical force to resolve a conflict or argument. Because physical fights are so common, many people dismiss them as a normal part of growing up. While it is true that teens (and teenage boys in particular) have always engaged in fistfights, today, many teens carry deadly weapons. In 1999, more than 1 in 4 male high school students said they had carried a weapon in the past month,2 and about 1 in 11 reported carrying a gun.3 Fights that involve weapons, such as guns, knives, and clubs, are a major cause of serious injuries and death among teenagers.Facts on teen fighting Why do some teens fight? When junior and senior high students around the nation were asked to identify the causes of the most recent fights they had witnessed, most frequent responses were: Someone insulted someone else or treated them disrespectfully (54 percent). There was an ongoing feud or disagreement (44 percent). www.keepschoolssafe.org/students/fighting.htmIt's far more important to me that my child or your child comes home from school alive not wearing a t-shirt with a flag than draped in an American flag laying on a slab at the morgue. There is not a single constitutional right that serves you when you are dead and at the morgue. If you are willing to serve up any teenager to protect some perceived right which does not exist to wear an American flag to school at the risk of them winding up dead or permanently disabled because of some internet meme and some quotes about liberty and security which also really don't apply in this situation I just don't know what else I can say to you.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 2, 2014 10:12:04 GMT -5
i think part of the problem here is assuming that kids have the same rights as adults. they don't.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Mar 2, 2014 10:39:45 GMT -5
i think part of the problem here is assuming that kids have the same rights as adults. they don't. Exactly.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 2, 2014 11:43:32 GMT -5
bottom line, since we are a fractured culture now, shirts with flags or that reflect ethnic pride or are of colors that express(damn, "expression" may be a road block) ethnic pride should be banned. no green on st pats day, no italian flags on columbus day, no mexican flags on may 5, etc. and no American flags ever.
i think uniforms should mandatory, you know for their own good and safety.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 12:20:31 GMT -5
bottom line, since we are a fractured culture now, shirts with flags or that reflect ethnic pride or are of colors that express(damn, "expression" may be a road block) ethnic pride should be banned. no green on st pats day, no italian flags on columbus day, no mexican flags on may 5, etc. and no American flags ever. i think uniforms should mandatory, you know for their own good and safety. Different bottom line, since we are a multicultural society as we have always been, we respect the few days a year that specific ethnic groups celebrate their heritage and not hold counter demonstrations.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 2, 2014 12:23:58 GMT -5
bottom line, since we are a fractured culture now, shirts with flags or that reflect ethnic pride or are of colors that express(damn, "expression" may be a road block) ethnic pride should be banned. no green on st pats day, no italian flags on columbus day, no mexican flags on may 5, etc. and no American flags ever. i think uniforms should mandatory, you know for their own good and safety. i think just the opposite. a pluralistic society is less likely to jackboot and kowtow to supreme leaders.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 2, 2014 12:31:08 GMT -5
bottom line, since we are a fractured culture now, shirts with flags or that reflect ethnic pride or are of colors that express(damn, "expression" may be a road block) ethnic pride should be banned. no green on st pats day, no italian flags on columbus day, no mexican flags on may 5, etc. and no American flags ever. i think uniforms should mandatory, you know for their own good and safety. Different bottom line, since we are a multicultural society as we have always been, we respect the few days a year that specific ethnic groups celebrate their heritage and not hold counter demonstrations. Why even allow a celebration of it at school? We studied it in our history classes. We went into detail about Mexican history. We studied black history, and the civil rights movement in detail. We studied Texas independence, and the great role of Tejanos in bringing about that independence. No celebration was observed for anything of that nature. Schools exist to educate not to celebrate.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 12:48:41 GMT -5
Different bottom line, since we are a multicultural society as we have always been, we respect the few days a year that specific ethnic groups celebrate their heritage and not hold counter demonstrations. Why even allow a celebration of it at school? We studied it in our history classes. We went into detail about Mexican history. We studied black history, and the civil rights movement in detail. We studied Texas independence, and the great role of Tejanos in bringing about that independence. No celebration was observed for anything of that nature. Schools exist to educate not to celebrate. I have no problem with no school time celebration. However students have time before school, lunch break, and after school during which they will do what they do
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 12:50:09 GMT -5
Maybe I need to take it back. This must be rocket science.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 12:54:08 GMT -5
These punks shouldn't be wearing the flag on shirts anyway. Show some respect to your country. If you don't wanto follow the rules you can move to Mexico. "Therefore, a flag includes any representation of it of any substance, with stars and stripes of any number. This would include T-shirts and ties. Other references in the Flag Code relevant to this question are: The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. (section ) It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like (section 8i) [It should not be] printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes (section 8i) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature. (section 8g) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. (section 8j) The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section ): "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."" www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 2, 2014 13:11:47 GMT -5
Why even allow a celebration of it at school? We studied it in our history classes. We went into detail about Mexican history. We studied black history, and the civil rights movement in detail. We studied Texas independence, and the great role of Tejanos in bringing about that independence. No celebration was observed for anything of that nature. Schools exist to educate not to celebrate. I have no problem with no school time celebration. However students have time before school, lunch break, and after school during which they will do what they do How about no celebrations of these things on school property period? The communities usually have their own celebrations. Let them celebrate there.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 13:15:17 GMT -5
I have no problem with no school time celebration. However students have time before school, lunch break, and after school during which they will do what they do How about no celebrations of these things on school property period? The communities usually have their own celebrations. Let them celebrate there.
Define "celebration". Then go to a high school and enforce it.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 2, 2014 13:18:59 GMT -5
How about no celebrations of these things on school property period? The communities usually have their own celebrations. Let them celebrate there.
Define "celebration". Then go to a high school and enforce it. The government feels free to force its own standards down the throats of the parents, and communities. They could do the same there. Otherwise, they are going to have to police everything, and allow all groups to celebrate.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 2, 2014 13:20:36 GMT -5
These punks shouldn't be wearing the flag on shirts anyway. Show some respect to your country. If you don't wanto follow the rules you can move to Mexico. "Therefore, a flag includes any representation of it of any substance, with stars and stripes of any number. This would include T-shirts and ties. Other references in the Flag Code relevant to this question are: The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. (section ) It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like (section 8i) [It should not be] printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes (section 8i) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature. (section 8g) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. (section 8j) The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section ): "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."" www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htmWe learned that years ago. I used to cringe when people wore flag underwear, speedos, and thongs. It is their free right to do so but it is disrespectful.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Mar 2, 2014 13:23:15 GMT -5
Maybe I need to take it back. This must be rocket science. <sigh> Apparently so.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 13:27:54 GMT -5
Define "celebration". Then go to a high school and enforce it. The government feels free to force its own standards down the throats of the parents, and communities. They could do the same there. Otherwise, they are going to have to police everything, and allow all groups to celebrate. All groups of students are free to gather, listen, and dance to music of their choice during their free time. If that music has a particular ethnic identity and they are doing this on a date that has significance for that ethnic group, are they "celebrating" and need to be stopped?
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 2, 2014 13:53:54 GMT -5
The government feels free to force its own standards down the throats of the parents, and communities. They could do the same there. Otherwise, they are going to have to police everything, and allow all groups to celebrate. All groups of students are free to gather, listen, and dance to music of their choice during their free time. If that music has a particular ethnic identity and they are doing this on a date that has significance for that ethnic group, are they "celebrating" and need to be stopped? That school system is very different from the ones here. Things are structured here to keep students busy, and not allow large amounts of time where they can get into trouble. Transition periods are limited. The school's goal it to provide an education, and keep things as orderly as possible. In fact, they set a time limit as to how early students may arrive at school. Also, no electronic devices that could provide music for a group are allowed on campus. If you use your cell phone during class, it is seized. You either have to pay a fine or wait X number of days to get it back. Elementary aged kids are required to wear uniforms. Churches, and civic groups help provide them to children whose parents cannot afford the uniforms. It stopped some of the violence, and it stopped assaults on kids to steal their expensive things. You can institute policies that help control things. It is a school for kids not a university for adults.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2014 14:20:40 GMT -5
All groups of students are free to gather, listen, and dance to music of their choice during their free time. If that music has a particular ethnic identity and they are doing this on a date that has significance for that ethnic group, are they "celebrating" and need to be stopped? That school system is very different from the ones here. Things are structured here to keep students busy, and not allow large amounts of time where they can get into trouble. Transition periods are limited. The school's goal it to provide an education, and keep things as orderly as possible. In fact, they set a time limit as to how early students may arrive at school. Also, no electronic devices that could provide music for a group are allowed on campus. If you use your cell phone during class, it is seized. You either have to pay a fine or wait X number of days to get it back. Elementary aged kids are required to wear uniforms. Churches, and civic groups help provide them to children whose parents cannot afford the uniforms. It stopped some of the violence, and it stopped assaults on kids to steal their expensive things. You can institute policies that help control things. It is a school for kids not a university for adults. Yes. Very different.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 2, 2014 15:41:29 GMT -5
we were a multi cultural that assimilated into Americans.
the militant illegals from south of the border do not see themselves as Americans.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 2, 2014 15:45:42 GMT -5
i blame pete townshend.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 2, 2014 15:47:58 GMT -5
it must be tough always being the smartest ones on every thread
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