thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 18, 2013 14:54:33 GMT -5
Sounds easy to forge?[/span]
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 18, 2013 14:57:31 GMT -5
So thyme, does this mom live in a State where grandparents have rights to their grandchildren?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 18, 2013 15:02:31 GMT -5
Yes, but they aren't too generous.
My friend is hoping that they agree she is a lunatic, and will keep the visitations supervised. She said that she won't agree to unsupervised until MIL gets counseling.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 18, 2013 15:03:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't even agree to it after she gets counseling. It only works if you want it to work, and I doubt she'll have an epiphany about her craziness at the counselors.
And I'd be burning those passports.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 18, 2013 15:27:46 GMT -5
Yes, but they aren't too generous. My friend is hoping that they agree she is a lunatic, and will keep the visitations supervised. She said that she won't agree to unsupervised until MIL gets counseling. So when your friend gets dragged into court by this woman, she should be prepared by countering with a detailed written log or journal of all the negative interactions, all the screaming matches, all the threats, all the attempts at keeping the kids, all the smack talking to the kids, etc etc etc. Photos or video too, if she can get them. Write down everything grandma says to the kids. Then she can either ask for visitation to be terminated or even ask for a restraining order.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Mar 18, 2013 15:36:58 GMT -5
I agree with document document document! Dates, times, locations, witnesses (I wouldn't worry about asking for the people to be witnesses - just who else the incident happened in front of) and keep it all in a secured area. Even if she's not able to fill it out until she gets home, it's better than nothing.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Mar 18, 2013 16:04:33 GMT -5
Ive been to Canada a million times. They have never asked me for a passport. All you do is drive across the bridge and tell them you are going to a restaurant or something. They have always waved us through. Flying would not work. Driving on the other hand....
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 18, 2013 16:12:11 GMT -5
Every time I've been to Canada I've gotten the Nth degree (so to speak). They even confiscated my passport once and made me wait in a holding room for over an hour while they diddled around on the computer and FINALLY figured out that I'm NOT the person on their bad guys/do not admit list (my name is similar but not the same, and we live in two different US States separated by almost the entire country). Blarg.
Since 9/11 it is not that easy to drive over the border to Mexico or Canada, at least not through the Border Patrol or Customs points of entrance. Illegally (bribing someone) - well all that takes is money, I suppose.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 16:36:39 GMT -5
Ive been to Canada a million times. They have never asked me for a passport. All you do is drive across the bridge and tell them you are going to a restaurant or something. They have always waved us through. Flying would not work. Driving on the other hand.... Well if their whole purpose is to kidnap the kid to Canada, sure it would be pretty simple. But kidnapping the kid to Canada would be no different then kidnapping the kid and relocating to another state. The mother needs to worry about them taking the kid to a country where US cannot really enforce much. They would have the same issue trying to take the kid out of Canada.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 18, 2013 16:44:57 GMT -5
Do you really think she would abduct and kidnap the kids and move to another country? You say it has been 3 yrs? And, she hasn't done this yet. Is she making moves to sell her business, relocate, etc? Her whole family is in the same town so where really would she go? Is this truly a possibility or maybe just a worry that makes the situation seem worse but not really likely? It is important to keep this in perspective.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 18, 2013 16:52:52 GMT -5
Do you really think she would abduct and kidnap the kids and move to another country? You say it has been 3 yrs? And, she hasn't done this yet. Is she making moves to sell her business, relocate, etc? Her whole family is in the same town so where really would she go? Is this truly a possibility or maybe just a worry that makes the situation seem worse but not really likely? It is important to keep this in perspective. I agree. There's a HUGE jump from "I'm a grandparent who just thinks I should be able to see my grandkids whenever I want" to "I'm going to kidnap the grandkids and take them somehwere out of reach of the US judicial system muahahaha". People act like there's an epidemic of grandparents kidnapping the kids and abandoning their life to go live in some remote country without a strong government attachment to the US. There is being prepared, and then there is giving up passports, moving to another state, etc, because you've invented in your mind that something which is INCREDIBLY rare is likely to happen to you because you're worked yourself into some frenzy over something that almost never happens. You might as well move every time someone looks at you funny because clearly they're plotting to kill you. I'm not sure how overreacting like a crazy person is going to help OP's friend.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 18, 2013 16:54:09 GMT -5
See if you can find a good attorney who will work for a percentage of the damages. Sue grandma for illegally obtaining records, for personal harassment, for the threats, emotional abuse, and whatever else you can dream up. If you don't think they can do this and bankrupt DIL, Leona H did it. Then, she didn't leave her grandchildren a nice inheritance.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 18, 2013 16:56:12 GMT -5
::See if you can find a good attorney who will work for a percentage of the damages. ::
The problem is, any lawyer stupid enough to do this, isn't going to be a very good lawyer.
ETA: Assuming this is even legal.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 18, 2013 16:57:21 GMT -5
Do you really think she would abduct and kidnap the kids and move to another country? You say it has been 3 yrs? And, she hasn't done this yet. Is she making moves to sell her business, relocate, etc? Her whole family is in the same town so where really would she go? Is this truly a possibility or maybe just a worry that makes the situation seem worse but not really likely? It is important to keep this in perspective. I agree. There's a HUGE jump from "I'm a grandparent who just thinks I should be able to see my grandkids whenever I want" to "I'm going to kidnap the grandkids and take them somehwere out of reach of the US judicial system muahahaha". People act like there's an epidemic of grandparents kidnapping the kids and abandoning their life to go live in some remote country without a strong government attachment to the US. There is being prepared, and then there is giving up passports, moving to another state, etc, because you've invented in your mind that something which is INCREDIBLY rare is likely to happen to you because you're worked yourself into some frenzy over something that almost never happens. You might as well move every time someone looks at you funny because clearly they're plotting to kill you. I'm not sure how overreacting like a crazy person is going to help OP's friend. I agree. We do tend to take leaps from someone giving us the hairy eyeball to thinking they are a mass murderer who is going to abduct and kill us or something. Going after the mother of the grandchildren is asanine. And, in the end, Grandma is only going to ensure that her grandkids cut her out of their lives.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 18, 2013 16:58:06 GMT -5
Thyme, what nationality is the MIL? Is she from a culture that normally grants grandparents significant rights, which may be influencing how she perceives the situation?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 18, 2013 17:02:08 GMT -5
I might even take the opposite route of Grandma claiming she'll tie it up in court till she gets custody.
"Listen, i want the kids to have their grandmother in their life, but it's going to be on my terms since I'm the parent. If you decide you want to sue to get something else then fine, but I will not voluntarily let you see the children, and I will tie this thing up in court for so long that by the time it's settled the kids will be 18 and out of the house anyways."
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 18, 2013 17:04:26 GMT -5
I might even take the opposite route of Grandma claiming she'll tie it up in court till she gets custody. "Listen, i want the kids to have their grandmother in their life, but it's going to be on my terms since I'm the parent. If you decide you want to sue to get something else then fine, but I will not voluntarily let you see the children, and I will tie this thing up in court for so long that by the time it's settled the kids will be 18 and out of the house anyways." Great approach!
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 18, 2013 17:06:54 GMT -5
Why are you scared for your kids? Is she going to kidnap your kids and take them to the far reaches of the earth too?
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 18, 2013 17:16:18 GMT -5
Depending upon how many screws loose grandma has (which could be a lot since it's only coming to a head 3 years after her son died, instead of soon after - i.e. building to insanity instead of awash in emotional torment from grief) I could see being worried what she might do if your kids happen to be around her grandkids at the time she completely loses. The probability is small, but if grandma really is a wackjob she could see other kids as just collateral damage.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 18, 2013 18:59:30 GMT -5
Things were peaceful shortly after the death. My friend needed a lot of help, and welcomed Grandma in. But, Grandma got a little weirder and weirder. And recently she started saying weird things - like it is more important for the boy to be raised by a new father than his mother. The "new father" is her other son, who moved into the state to influence the kids. Then she decided new father needed to be involved in the boy's sports and the boy's schoolwork. Then she thought the boy should spend the night with new father on a regular basis, so he can have more influence on the kid. Then she started saying that mom wasn't really mom. Somewhere along the lines, my friend got a live-in nanny, so she could be less dependent on Grandma, and as the MIL got weirder, my friend circled the wagons just a little tighter. Now MIL has gone off the deep end threatening for full custody. The chances that my friend would be declared such a bad mother that custody should be taken away is basically zero, so I'm just wondering how desperate MIL is going to get. If her behavior has been getting progressively worse, I don't see how a judge saying "No" will make her say "Oh, okay."
No, but they would be pretty bummed if their best friends disappeared into the night, and we never saw them again. When their Dad died, my son kept having nightmares that one of his parents would die. Granted, they are older now, but that would be a pretty hard thing to come to terms with.
My friend said that she would try and offer a few solutions so there could be family peace, but if her MIL continues to fight this, she said she would sell her house, move into a smaller one, and be prepared to spend all the equity fighting it. She said she would turn it over to the lawyers and get court orders to keep Grandma (and new dad/uncle) 1000 yards away. Deny everything - can't even come and watch the soccer game without getting arrested. I like it, but if MIL has lost her nut - who knows what pushing her buttons will do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 21:01:47 GMT -5
I would definitely record the conversation of "new dad" type stuff. I agree with others tgat she should document everything in any way possible, keep a diary (not necessarily detailed but taking notes). Whether the MIL is crazy or not, things she is saying are not ok. She doesnt get to decide on a dad for the kids.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 18, 2013 22:51:46 GMT -5
I might even take the opposite route of Grandma claiming she'll tie it up in court till she gets custody. "Listen, i want the kids to have their grandmother in their life, but it's going to be on my terms since I'm the parent. If you decide you want to sue to get something else then fine, but I will not voluntarily let you see the children, and I will tie this thing up in court for so long that by the time it's settled the kids will be 18 and out of the house anyways." You need deeper pockets than Grandmother in order to do this. I think Grandma partially made this threat because she knows she has more money. Given what we've read about people spending on divorce custody issues I'd have a hard time recommending someone likely spending tens of thousands of dollars, possibly six figures, just to play Grandma's game.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 18, 2013 23:46:55 GMT -5
"Anyone ever deal with a full-scale lunatic as an in-law? Anyone ever afraid their kid would just disappear at the hands of someone they knew? What did you do to protect yourself and your kid?"
Yes, I have. My ex-in-laws are part of a "church" where they have laid claim to other people's belongings after a member has died. They've gone and cleared out the house's even when the spouse was still living and not part of that church, and cops had to be called.
They had talked about moving more than once, just packing up and going. I think the only thing that stopped them was the fact that they are both messed up in the head, and every place they looked at the ex-FIL would decide it had "too many gangs".
When the ex left I refused to let my son be alone with them. I had a very rational fear that if I let him spend a day with them, or overnight, they'd be out of town long before I knew something was up. On 9/11 she called my son's babysitter (who I'd warned about her and who had strict instructions not to let her pick up my son). She told the babysitter that my work had gone into "lock down" and that I had called her and asked her to pick up my son for me. The babysitter wouldn't let her, and called me immediately.
I sent letters to my son's school saying no one other than my mom and dad, me, his babysitter or the "carpool mom" could pick him up. One day I showed up to pick him up while wearing my glasses. They didn't recognize me and weren't going to let me take him (guess the whole Clark Kent thing wasn't that far fetched after all...)
My son was instructed he could not go anywhere with them. Yes, it was hard to figure out how to explain why he could no longer see his other grandma without me with him, but he got over it.
They are still out of his life, and although I know it "hurt" them, I don't regret it for a second. They were/are horrible people who, when they had been allowed to watch him in the past, had put him through heat stroke, dropped him off with my babysitter's mom instead of taking him back to the babysitter's, took him upstairs when he was just learning how to walk down them, watched him fall down the entire flight, and then instructed everyone who was there not to tell me about it. They treated his father no better, when he broke his arm, they wrapped it in an ace bandage. Would not allow him to attend public school because it was "evil" and would not homeschool him.
I guess I'm just lucky they were poor and lived off the government.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 0:04:01 GMT -5
Mom has a responsibility for the safety of her children. If she has seen a deterioration in the behavior of the grandparent, she will know best what is brewing and a likely scenario to play out. Time to stop playing 'nice' with the grandparents. People with deteriorating mental health are unpredictable and act in illogical ways. In this case, if mom is good parent, she should trust her instincts and restrict access to protect the kids.
From the perspective of the school's behavior, if they are circling the wagons against the mother/children, they are failing in their duty to protect the children. I'd get an attorney to set them straight immediately. The school should be moving to more sufficiently safeguard the children, not distance themselves. An attorney will help remind them of that.
Grandparents have limited to no rights depending on the state. It is not a huge legal battle to restrict their access to children, particularly if there are observed mental health concerns. Mom really does need to keep a diary of incidents, statements, conversations & she'll be able to shut down the demands.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Mar 19, 2013 0:48:35 GMT -5
Ive been to Canada a million times. They have never asked me for a passport. All you do is drive across the bridge and tell them you are going to a restaurant or something. They have always waved us through. Flying would not work. Driving on the other hand.... Well if their whole purpose is to kidnap the kid to Canada, sure it would be pretty simple. But kidnapping the kid to Canada would be no different then kidnapping the kid and relocating to another state. The mother needs to worry about them taking the kid to a country where US cannot really enforce much. They would have the same issue trying to take the kid out of Canada. Uh... I can go to Cuba from Canada but not the from the US...its very easy to do and nobody stamps or even looks at your passport.....the point is, once the kid is out of the country it really doesn't matter where they are....its still going to be a pain in the ass to get them back even if it is, just Canada.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Mar 19, 2013 0:53:53 GMT -5
Every time I've been to Canada I've gotten the Nth degree (so to speak). They even confiscated my passport once and made me wait in a holding room for over an hour while they diddled around on the computer and FINALLY figured out that I'm NOT the person on their bad guys/do not admit list (my name is similar but not the same, and we live in two different US States separated by almost the entire country). Blarg. Since 9/11 it is not that easy to drive over the border to Mexico or Canada, at least not through the Border Patrol or Customs points of entrance. Illegally (bribing someone) - well all that takes is money, I suppose. I have never had any problems going into Canada. The US side is a total PITA however and we have been stopped at times going into Canada on the US side of the bridge. We have never had any issue with customs on the Canadian side. Most of the time, they never even leave their little drive thru window.
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Mar 19, 2013 4:01:23 GMT -5
When I was a little younger than your friend's children, a close family friend had a nervous breakdown and my parents had cause to be concerned for my safety. Aside from alerting the school they also chose to talk with me in an age appropriate way that was not frightening but rather empowering to me as a child to take care of myself. As an adult looking back I think they handled it quite well and it is something I had completely forgotten about until reading this so obviously I was not scarred.
I would talk talk talk with the kids - let them know that gramma has had a hard time losing her son (their father,) is not well, maybe even say she loves them too much for everyone's and is a little off her rocker right now. That they are not to go with her and they are not to believe her if she says something has happened to mommy (ie your friend.) By talking it over with her children your friend could help the children to develop empathy while also teaching them to protect themselves. Discuss with them that gramma even went to school for records that she should not have, why parents are the only ones given them and why, etc. In other words educate the children to the situation - at ages 8 and 10 they are plenty old enough to be involved.
One time I asked a therapist I knew and respected what the best way to protect children from the dangers of this world - he said to alway talk with them. Teach them to tell you everything that goes on in their lives, to talk to you no matter what they are told by other adults, that they will never get in trouble for anything they tell you, no matter what be a safe person for them.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 19, 2013 6:16:13 GMT -5
I would see nothing wrong with their Uncle getting more involved in their lives. In fact, i would count that a good thing. But, grandma saying mom is "not the mother" is pretty weird.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 6:44:36 GMT -5
Uncle being involved might be a good thing... But being called 'new dad' instead of uncle is a little creepy... It's like to gma is warping details to fit her 'new reality'...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 19, 2013 6:49:21 GMT -5
Yes, the "new dad" thing is also very creepy.
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