formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 15, 2013 10:19:03 GMT -5
I'll be in a similar situation with my BIL and MIL once my FIL dies. BIL is a sweet guy, but he flat out refuses to work and is being enabled by his parents, mostly by his lazy mother. MIL won't work either and wants to be a trophy wife. It is quite possible that MIL deliberately hobbled BIL so she'd have a playmate. Or he could just be manipulative enough to have convinced her that he is too fragile for the real world. Hard to say what's going on in that mess. Thankfully, I have enough of a reputation as a beyotch that nobody wants to live with me.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 15, 2013 10:19:44 GMT -5
Hi, Mom & Dad! Thanks for thinking my home would be good for Brother Dear. I do want him to be well. Unlike last year when we invited him to live with us, we're not able to take him on. I know you don't want two children in distress, so let's focus on how to help him find another place. Let's talk soon and brainstorm together. xxxooo ~Cyanne ...no copyright, so feel free to cut-n-paste...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2013 10:24:01 GMT -5
My husband seems to think you should help out your family no matter what. His sister was in prison for a couple years and when she got out, went to live with a different brother and his wife for a year. After that year, they kicked her out and a few months later she was back in jail. My husband thinks it was wrong for them to kick her out and has been hinting that maybe we should take her in after she gets out again. Uh. No. Freaking. Way. She makes stupid choices and she can live with them. The other brother asked her to leave because they just offered to help her out until she had a job and could get her own place. A year should be sufficient! She was running around, violating parole and getting in trouble and they just wanted her gone. My husband feels this is giving up on family. She's 32 years old for Christ sake. She knows what she's doing and what she needs to do. I suggested her moving in with his Dad (who wants her there) and he said that their Dad wouldn't keep an eye on her and things would get worse. So...not only do you want to give her a free place to live, you want us to babysit her too? I'm pretty sure I got the point across that if he wants to live with his sister they're going to have to get their own place! This is the most enabling family I ever met. This is only one of several major, drug, mental health, financial issues they've just made worse by their "kindness".
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 15, 2013 10:35:36 GMT -5
As I see it, giving up on family involves accepting the individual is totally incompetent, worthless, and unable to improve their situation. That, to me, would indicate a person who needs to be in an institution, not couch surfing family members' and friends' homes. If you're going to help the individual, you're not going to do it by enabling self-destructive behaviors.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 15, 2013 10:43:42 GMT -5
I would never refuse to help a family member, the first time. If that turned into a bad experience, they would be on their own. You can't enable someone to the detriment of your own immediate family. One chance is all they would get.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 15, 2013 10:57:13 GMT -5
As I see it, giving up on family involves accepting the individual is totally incompetent, worthless, and unable to improve their situation. That, to me, would indicate a person who needs to be in an institution, not couch surfing family members' and friends' homes. If you're going to help the individual, you're not going to do it by enabling self-destructive behaviors. If you are helping a particular family member who loves to couch surf, you should be making their life as uncomfortable for them as possible. Take away the television remote. Take away the computer. Lock up the food when no one else but the couch surfer is home. You shouldn't make life easy for them. And if you are going to help a family member, create a contract with set rules and goals for them. Everyone signs the contract and gets a copy of the contract so there is no misuderstanding of what's to take place and by when.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 15, 2013 11:23:39 GMT -5
And if you are going to help a family member, create a contract with set rules and goals for them. Everyone signs the contract and gets a copy of the contract so there is no misuderstanding of what's to take place and by when
Sounds like something for the lazy sibling to wipe his ass with Why should you have to spell any of this out, it should be freaking common sense. I am not going to waste my time trying to document and enforce responsible adult behavior from a family member. Once you open the door you can have paperwork up to your eyeballs, it won’t stop the guilt tripping and the negociating on the part of the irresponsible and anyone else who enables them. Sure you can show them the paper but like I said you pretty much just handed them fancy toilet paper. You can’t make people do what you want them to do no matter how many papers they sign. Now not only is everyone pissed at you but now you’re stuck in the role of enforcer/parent to boot. Why even go there to begin with? Something happens to my parents and they are no longer able to care for themselves or pass away, my “list of expectations” for my brother is going to be you have X number of days to find yourself a place ot live before I short sale the house because I can’t afford to keep it and neither can they. Also get a job lined up because there ain’t any money left and I sure as hell am not supporting you. Minnesota my DH thinks you should help family no matter what as well . DH disagrees with me with how I handle my brother and thinks I am being cold hearted. To his credit he at least recognizes that I have my head screwed on straight and his “family is family” attitude isn’t always a good idea.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 15, 2013 11:38:59 GMT -5
I feel much the same about my brother, Drama. He's always put himself first. While he does work, he's always spent every dime he made and depended on my parents (then, my mother once my father was gone) to make up the difference between his earning power and his wants). They enabled him. Now, of course, mother lives here with me and has for more than 10 years. Oddly enough, he hasn't needed any money since I took over her financial dealings about three years ago. Strange, that ... or, not. He knows he won't get a bloody dime from me. He's through using her and he knows it. I'll have none of it. When she's gone, I'll have none of him.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 15, 2013 11:56:51 GMT -5
My dad passed this week. Some of my relatives are in for a shock. I will not be the gravy train. I am very good at tough love.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 15, 2013 11:58:35 GMT -5
I'm hoping my brother will have his act together before we get to that point, my parents aren't even 60 yet.
BUT I am not going to wait till it happens and then start discussing things. Hoping it doesn't and everything won't fall to me but I am too cynical to hold my breath.
I have compromised a bit with DH and depending on the circumstances I MIGHT be willing to pay a deposit on an apartment but that is as far as I am willing to go.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 15, 2013 12:00:39 GMT -5
My dad passed this week. Some of my relatives are in for a shock. I will not be the gravy train. I am very good at tough love. I'm sorry for your loss grits. You know you can vent to us here on the boards, if you need to/if it helps.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2013 12:02:00 GMT -5
I am also sorry to hear about your Dad's passing. My condolences to you and your family.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 15, 2013 12:11:44 GMT -5
I would never refuse to help a family member, the first time. If that turned into a bad experience, they would be on their own. You can't enable someone to the detriment of your own immediate family. One chance is all they would get. This! We've helped out family members who have actually gotten back on their feet and even paid us back. We've also helped out folks who were bottomless pits. I agree with Bluerobin: one bite of the apple, that's it. The tough part sometimes is figuring out who is just in a nasty pinch from which they can eventually recover, and who is looking for a handout to survive another day (and continue ask for more handouts). Good luck to you and stay strong! You do NOT owe your mother or anyone else an explanation. If she reaaaaaaalllly guilts you, you can offer to do what we did: help them apply for public benefits, connect them to the local or regional homeless shelter and homeless services, help them set up a budget, etc. No one has ever taken us up on those offers of help . . . very telling!
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 15, 2013 12:12:47 GMT -5
Hugs and prayers and love going out to you, Grits!
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 15, 2013 12:23:42 GMT -5
Thank you all but it is okay. Being the oldest son, his twisted mind grew to consider me a threat. Yet, at times, he would turn to me to confide in me. The poor man would have been 89 April 9th, and he had carried deep pain in his heart from his childhood on. 80 years is a long time to carry deep pain. I only took one day off from work, and went back. It was a huge mistake. I was already under too much stress before he died. It just made it worse. i had to leave work, and go to the hospital. I had all the warning signs of heart attack, and stroke. They barefy got my name into the system, and whisked me into a room to start treatment. I was very impressed with the care I received.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 15, 2013 12:25:46 GMT -5
I've had relatives say they'd kill themselves if I didn't do what they wanted. One, I know they are chicken livered liars. Two, I tell them it will be their loss not mine. Three, don't make a mess.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 15, 2013 12:29:31 GMT -5
And if you are going to help a family member, create a contract with set rules and goals for them. Everyone signs the contract and gets a copy of the contract so there is no misuderstanding of what's to take place and by when
Sounds like something for the lazy sibling to wipe his ass with Why should you have to spell any of this out, it should be freaking common sense. I am not going to waste my time trying to document and enforce responsible adult behavior from a family member. Once you open the door you can have paperwork up to your eyeballs, it won’t stop the guilt tripping and the negociating on the part of the irresponsible and anyone else who enables them. Sure you can show them the paper but like I said you pretty much just handed them fancy toilet paper. You can’t make people do what you want them to do no matter how many papers they sign. Now not only is everyone pissed at you but now you’re stuck in the role of enforcer/parent to boot. Why even go there to begin with? Something happens to my parents and they are no longer able to care for themselves or pass away, my “list of expectations” for my brother is going to be you have X number of days to find yourself a place ot live before I short sale the house because I can’t afford to keep it and neither can they. Also get a job lined up because there ain’t any money left and I sure as hell am not supporting you. Minnesota my DH thinks you should help family no matter what as well . DH disagrees with me with how I handle my brother and thinks I am being cold hearted. To his credit he at least recognizes that I have my head screwed on straight and his “family is family” attitude isn’t always a good idea. You spell it out for the loafer so there are no extended family surprises or interference when you have to kick his butt to the curb. He broke the contract and he's out.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 15, 2013 12:30:32 GMT -5
My dad passed this week. Some of my relatives are in for a shock. I will not be the gravy train. I am very good at tough love. I am so sorry to hear that grits.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 15, 2013 12:32:24 GMT -5
Post of the day!!!
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 15, 2013 12:41:10 GMT -5
Contracts with relatives don't always work. My uncle borrowed money from my dad to help pay for his college education. It was in the 1940's, and he agreed to pay a certain % of interest. He welched on it. By now, that would be hundreds of thousands of dollars. It might even be over a million.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 15, 2013 12:45:13 GMT -5
Contracts with relatives don't always work. My uncle borrowed money from my dad to help pay for his college education. It was in the 1940's, and he agreed to pay a certain % of interest. He welched on it. By now, that would be hundreds of thousands of dollars. It might even be over a million. Contracts work if you take them to court.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 15, 2013 12:46:52 GMT -5
You spell it out for the loafer so there are no extended family surprises or interference when you have to kick his butt to the curb
Have you read any of Carl's posts lately?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 15, 2013 12:48:28 GMT -5
You spell it out for the loafer so there are no extended family surprises or interference when you have to kick his butt to the curb
Have you read any of Carl's posts lately? That would be Carl's problem to deal with. Suckers are born every minute.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2013 12:49:32 GMT -5
my mom is going through this, although supposedly now she's moving out of my aunt's house for real this time. She's been enabling my aunt for the past 1.5-2 years now (aunt is severely underemployed but has not bothered to find a new/additional job, can't afford mortgage/utilities/insurance without my mom's assistance), and it just burns me up. My mom has made plans to leave before only to change her mind. Well a couple of months ago her Coming to Jesus moment occurred when my aunt's car got repoed because she was like 3-4 months behind on payments. Turns out she had the money --- she was just TOO LAZY TO TAKE THE CHECKS TO THE PAYMENT PLACE!!!!! She's moving in with one of her widowed girlfriends next month. This friend owns the home outright so all my mom would do is split utilities and property tax.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 15, 2013 12:53:29 GMT -5
Contracts with relatives don't always work. My uncle borrowed money from my dad to help pay for his college education. It was in the 1940's, and he agreed to pay a certain % of interest. He welched on it. By now, that would be hundreds of thousands of dollars. It might even be over a million. Contracts work if you take them to court. One, the witnesses are all dead. Two, consider it a lesson learned, and it takes more than this for us to sue family. Suing a family member brings explosive division to the family. If you can't afford to give it outright, don't loan it.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 15, 2013 12:56:08 GMT -5
"Dear Brother: you are a full-grown man. I'm going to respect your manhood by letting you stand on your own two feet. If you don't have money, here is a list of public resources that can help you. If you don't have a place to live, here is the location of the local shelter. Here is a list of churches and agencies that help people who find themselves in difficult circumstances. Here is a list of local employment services. Also, I'm really good with budgeting. I have no money to give you, but I can help you look over your income and expenses and help you figure out how to manage going forward."
Yes, I've said it - and had the lists ready. Very telling that it fell on deaf ears, twice. But heck, it might be worth a try . . . the worst that could happen is that you use this conversation to set up some appropriate boundaries going forward.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 15, 2013 12:56:54 GMT -5
I'm hoping my brother will have his act together before we get to that point, my parents aren't even 60 yet. BUT I am not going to wait till it happens and then start discussing things. Hoping it doesn't and everything won't fall to me but I am too cynical to hold my breath. I have compromised a bit with DH and depending on the circumstances I MIGHT be willing to pay a deposit on an apartment but that is as far as I am willing to go. You know it's funny, when I posted a few years ago asking if I should discuss the same thing with my BIL, everyone said don't bother, it will just stir up trouble. Then again, it's really my husband's place to deal with his brother, not mine.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 15, 2013 12:57:34 GMT -5
Contracts work if you take them to court
So take more time and money out of my life trying to get a judgement against the loafer and probably never collect on it to boot since you can't squeeze blood from a stone. Stir up even more crap with the family and further estrange myself since odds are pretty good no one is going to take my side.
When I could have avoided the inevitable and just said NO from the start?
The OP's brother is 40. If he hasn't got a clue by now it's not going to happen, the OP shouldn't put herself in the position of having to parent to her brother, cover her ass with paperwork and possibly have to go to court over it all.
That is way too much drama, she has her own life to live.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Mar 15, 2013 13:01:11 GMT -5
Cyanne, My mom used to try to guilt trip me into helping my brothers out. I helped my older brother out a few times while he was going through an ugly divorce, but then I saw that he didn't learn his lesson when he called and asked me to pay his lawyer fees for a 2nd bankruptcy. I said no and he really hasn't talked to me in a few years. My younger brother is a worthless piece of crap. He has never really held a job other than Burger King...which he got fired from for smoking pot on his break. He is 30 and is couch surfing because he can't hold a job and doesn't want to live by my parents' rules (rules like NO drugs on their property, no GROWING drugs on their property, no abusing girlfriend, ...yeah, he is a real piece of work). But even though he is like this, my mom STILL thinks that I should help him out. She thinks that we are wealthy and that if we could just help him get on his feet he would turn his life around. I remind her all the time about all the times SHE has helped him out and he STILL is a mess. I have flat out refused ANY help at all. No emotional support, nothing. I know I sound cold, but he has been babied and coddled his entire life and never forced to face consequences for his actions. I will not help him. You don't sound cold at all. You (generic you) cannot help someone who will not help him/herself. Your mom no doubt means well, but she is only contributing to the problem.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 15, 2013 13:04:07 GMT -5
You know it's funny, when I posted a few years ago asking if I should discuss the same thing with my BIL, everyone said don't bother, it will just stir up trouble. Then again, it's really my husband's place to deal with his brother, not mine
I handle it all, but DH is informed and a part of the plan. I don't want any divisions that could be exploited between us.
Even if he doesn't completely agree with my views we present a united front on the matter.
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