thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 19, 2013 18:17:26 GMT -5
Turn on the light.
(This reminds me of a computer game that was out in 1988, it might have been Hitchhiker's guide to the Universe. It gave you information and you just typed what to happen next. It was on the black screen with the green letters. The first thing was "You wake up in a pitch dark room." And the only move you could do was "Turn on light." If you typed anything like "Stand up" it said you fell down and were lying on the floor. After you turned on the light, it described the room and then you could do multiple things - like read a book, or leave the room, or open drawers. I never got very far in the game. But ever since then, I think it is funny when I'm in a pitch dark room and I think "Turn on light.")[/span]
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 19, 2013 18:18:23 GMT -5
::...and those of us who are satisfied with the "reasonable doubt" threshold, no matter how much the situation stinks...::
What's the reasonable doubt though? That he intended to murder someone else who he thought was locked in his toilet but instead murdered his gf?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 19, 2013 18:27:34 GMT -5
...it's reasonable to protect yourself with lethal force in your own home... it's reasonable to call out warnings or pleas for help/assistance, presume none exists when you receive no answer, and then fend for yourself... it's reasonable 1) to think the GF left, or 2) was incapacitated, 3) even duplicitous, or 4) be disoriented enough to not remember your date the night before... his public version so far seems to allow for 1) and 2) more than 3) or 4)... but we don't know for sure...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 19, 2013 18:32:04 GMT -5
Sure I agree that there is "reasonable doubt" by the law's standards. I also am aware that there are things that can not be brought up during trial that may be true that the average population may hear about. No matter what the jury outcome, I am pretty sure that I will never really know what happened.
Kaylee wantzhername is a perfect example. She wasn't convicted of anything but obstructing justice, right? Does that mean she is innocent in her child's death? Not necessarily. I will never know what really happened there.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 19, 2013 18:35:37 GMT -5
...it's reasonable to protect yourself with lethal force in your own home... it's reasonable to call out warnings or pleas for help/assistance, presume none exists when you receive no answer, and then fend for yourself... it's reasonable 1) to think the GF left, or 2) was incapacitated, 3) even duplicitous, or 4) be disoriented enough to not remember your date the night before... his public version so far seems to allow for 1) and 2) more than 3) or 4)... but we don't know for sure... note to self.... never take a in BTDT's house......may result in lethal force. So basically - anyone who wants to kill their GF just waits for them to take a , pretend they "thought" they left, and riddled the bathroom in bullets. Now - that's reasonable. ...I'll agree with you that you should not come into my home without our permission...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 19, 2013 18:36:58 GMT -5
Sure I agree that there is "reasonable doubt" by the law's standards. I also am aware that there are things that can not be brought up during trial that may be true that the average population may hear about. No matter what the jury outcome, I am pretty sure that I will never really know what happened. ...agreed...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 19, 2013 18:41:35 GMT -5
I'm putting a bulletproof steel door on my bathroom this week.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 19, 2013 18:45:15 GMT -5
I'm putting a bulletproof steel door on my bathroom this week. Save yourself some time and money and just poop with the door open. While screaming my own name "I'm Thyme. I'm Thyme. I'm Thyme"
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 19, 2013 18:53:59 GMT -5
Well, I just came back from the pooper, and it worked. I didn't get shot.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 19, 2013 19:09:18 GMT -5
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Feb 19, 2013 19:37:20 GMT -5
I'm sorry...even if it was an intruder...the intruder is locked in a 4x4 room with no escape. How can you shoot without even making some sort of contact? How about "Freeze I'm calling the cops" or something like that. Hell, shoot once near the door to scare them into talking. Get SOME sort of noise from the intruder. But four shots into the equivalent of a barrel?? Nope, I don't believe it. Way more likely that the GF was hiding trying to keep away from him during a fight and didn't think he'd actually shoot her through a door.
Key info: was there pee in the toilet? Given his statement she was in the bathroom for several minutes and he didn't hear the toilet flush. If she had really been in there like he said, the toilet water should have been dirty.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 19, 2013 19:48:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry...even if it was an intruder...the intruder is locked in a 4x4 room with no escape. ...it had an escape... and a point of entry... which is described in Pistorius' version...How can you shoot without even making some sort of contact? How about "Freeze I'm calling the cops" or something like that. Hell, shoot once near the door to scare them into talking. Get SOME sort of noise from the intruder. ...again, according to his version, he did attempt contact...But four shots into the equivalent of a barrel?? ...fear, panic, disforia? Nope, I don't believe it. ...your choice...Way more likely that the GF was hiding trying to keep away from him during a fight and didn't think he'd actually shoot her through a door. Key info: was there pee in the toilet? Given his statement she was in the bathroom for several minutes and he didn't hear the toilet flush. If she had really been in there like he said, the toilet water should have been dirty. ...we don't know yet......my responses in blue...
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Feb 19, 2013 21:55:29 GMT -5
[/p]
I interpret this to mean she was in the small 4x4 room where the toilet was...separate from the bathroom where the window was. There was no escape.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 19, 2013 22:03:17 GMT -5
[/p]
I interpret this to mean she was in the small 4x4 room where the toilet was...separate from the bathroom where the window was. There was no escape.
[/quote] ...fair enough... I imagined a window in there, too, despite no specific description as such... largely because that's the configuration of several of my own bathrooms in the past...
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Feb 20, 2013 10:06:11 GMT -5
[/p]
I interpret this to mean she was in the small 4x4 room where the toilet was...separate from the bathroom where the window was. There was no escape.
[/quote] why are we saying 4x4 - are those the dimensions given somewhere? In London, where they also have the bathroom/toilet as separate rooms, the toilet area is sometimes 2.5 by 2.5 you couldn't hit the deck even if you wanted to. All floor space is taken up by the toilet, with about 6-9" to the walls. [/quote] I read an article somewhere giving space dimensions of the bedroom/bathroom/toilet room but now I can't find it. But here's an excerpt from another article: Pressing for a charge of premeditated murder, the prosecutor, Gerrie Nel, said Steenkamp had been shot three times in a small 1.4m x 1.14m room where she was cowering after a shouting match. He dismissed Pistorius's claim that he thought she was a burglar as "all part of the pre-planning". He asked: "Why would a burglar lock himself inside the bathroom?"www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/19/oscar-pistorius-weeps-riveting-testimony
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2013 10:10:37 GMT -5
not looking good for ol' Oscar.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2013 10:11:58 GMT -5
By the way - a 4 foot x 4.5 foot room for just the toilet? Sheesh - that is almost the size of my entire bathroom!
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Feb 20, 2013 10:14:48 GMT -5
The other fishy thing to me is that he keeps saying he deeply loved her. Dude, you were dating for 3 months! How "deep" could it be?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2013 10:14:59 GMT -5
I don't know what the legal standard is for pre-meditated, but it doesn't sound like this was totally accidental and he thought he was defending his home and his girlfriend. I think he knew darn well that he was shooting her. Sure, maybe he did it on the spur of the moment and then made up this story about an intruder, but even if it was a crime of passion, he should be punished. It doesn't sound like his accident story will hold up.
Once they get all the pieces in order, he will likely plea.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2013 10:15:45 GMT -5
{{Enter steriod/penis shrinking joke here...}}
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Feb 20, 2013 10:17:33 GMT -5
I still don't see that this is premeditated - in the form that I envision premeditate, more in a fit of passion during an ugly argument where maybe she decided to break off the relationship. so while I can see maybe that he grabbed the gun with intent to kill her, I don't see that as premeditated as they are trying to make out. There is again an issue of some drug use. they found "something" plus syringes - so far no id ont he substance and pistorius lawyer is saying it is herbal? I never heard of an herbal thing you inject. I'm not a lawyer (not in SA either) but I wonder if "premeditation" can mean only that he knew for the thirty seconds between when he grabbed the gun and when he shot at her in a locked room that obviously he planned to kill her. You don't shoot blindly through a locked door hoping to maim/warn a person. Especially a small room like that where she couldn't exactly hide. I don't know that premeditation means you had to plan it out for days before the murder.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2013 10:20:49 GMT -5
Maybe Swamp will come and tell us what the legal definition of "pre-meditated murder" is (at least in New York.)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2013 10:24:04 GMT -5
From the infalliable source of Wikipedia ():
States have adopted several different schemes for classifying murders by degree. The most common separates murder into two degrees, and treats voluntary and involuntary manslaughter as separate crimes that do not constitute murder. - First degree murder is any murder that is willful and premeditated. Felony murder is typically first degree.[5][6]
- Second degree murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance.[7]
- Voluntary manslaughter sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.[8]
- Involuntary manslaughter stems from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional, or negligent, act leading to death. A drunk driving-related death is typically involuntary manslaughter. Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional," because the killer did not intend for a death to result from his intentional actions. If there is a presence of intention it relates only to the intent to cause a violent act which brings about the death, but not an intention to bring about the death itself. [9]
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 20, 2013 10:24:32 GMT -5
"— I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander, who was involved in the administration of the estate, and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help."
This could just be a difference in language idiom or translation, but I'm guessing Johan Stander is not just "involved in the administration of the estate" but is also Oscar's attorney. Regardless of who Johan is, I always find it extremely odd when someone calls their attorney or any other person prior to calling an ambulance.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2013 10:26:40 GMT -5
Maybe they don't have 9-1-1 and he didn't know the number. But, I agree, it is pretty odd that you would call your attorney, or possibly business manager of some sort.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 20, 2013 10:30:19 GMT -5
I still don't see that this is premeditated - in the form that I envision premeditate, more in a fit of passion during an ugly argument where maybe she decided to break off the relationship. so while I can see maybe that he grabbed the gun with intent to kill her, I don't see that as premeditated as they are trying to make out. There is again an issue of some drug use. they found "something" plus syringes - so far no id ont he substance and pistorius lawyer is saying it is herbal? I never heard of an herbal thing you inject. Legal premeditation can be a split second decision to kill her. It's a jury call to decide if it was emotional disturbance, which would lower to to manslaughter from murder.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 20, 2013 10:31:44 GMT -5
"— I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander, who was involved in the administration of the estate, and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help." This could just be a difference in language idiom or translation, but I'm guessing Johan Stander is not just "involved in the administration of the estate" but is also Oscar's attorney. Regardless of who Johan is, I always find it extremely odd when someone calls their attorney or any other person prior to calling an ambulance. If I've just accidentally shot hte person I love, my first call is probably an ambulance.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 20, 2013 10:32:29 GMT -5
I am particularly interested in the conflicting statements of whether he was wearing his prosthetics or not. I can't imagine that it would be that difficult to determine the angles of the bullets. They do it on CSI all the time!
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 20, 2013 10:33:41 GMT -5
There are several Johan Standers in SA on LinkedIn, but none of them appear to be attorneys or medical people. Most look like IT guys of various kinds. I can't imagine why you'd call any of them if your partner were bleeding to death on the floor.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 20, 2013 10:34:43 GMT -5
Key info: was there pee in the toilet? Given his statement she was in the bathroom for several minutes and he didn't hear the toilet flush. If she had really been in there like he said, the toilet water should have been dirty. They did indicate that her bladder was empty, lending credence to the notion that she was using the bathroom.
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