Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:20:13 GMT -5
Phoenix, you brought up the book It as you equating the two... I think it's a separate discussion, still worthy of comment... But not what you are trying to make it... I brought it up because sometimes I think critical thinking is a euphanism for pushing a certain social agenda. And it turns out my comment was at least somewhat true because many here have equated the two, when critical thinking and diversity ARE two separate subjects.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 21:21:46 GMT -5
Schools serve more than one purpose, as I see it. They're not just there to shovel facts in and have them parroted back. They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted. It's not "just gi'me the facts, ma'am". There's more to it than that, and that is as it should be.
As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:22:24 GMT -5
I am checking out from this thread, we are talking about two Mommy now.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:22:40 GMT -5
I guess I'm the only one who notices the irony of equating critical thinking with teaching homosexuality a certain way as an immutable fact that should not be questioned. Um...it's a fact, homosexual people exist. They have for as long as civilization has existed. They are not going away anytime soon. Honestly, ya need to just get over it. LOL, yes I realize gay folks are out there, and yes I'm over it. I don't see what that has to do with believing schools are places of learning, not places wax philosophy on homosexual relationships.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Feb 11, 2013 21:23:23 GMT -5
Schools serve more than one purpose, as I see it. They're not just there to shovel facts in and have them parroted back. They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted. It's not "just gi'me the facts, ma'am". There's more to it than that, and that is as it should be. As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), but you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results. Exactly.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:24:03 GMT -5
"What is the school supposed to do when kids ask about Heather who,really does have two mommies?"
Ask your parents? Or at the very least talk to the student in private and not make a public lecture on it.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:24:33 GMT -5
There is an enormous difference in denying its existence, and in leaving it up to the parents to teach their children about it. Schools are not supposed to exist as places of social indoctrination. They are supposed to be places of basic education. What is the school supposed to do when kids ask about Heather who,really does have two mommies? Change the subject, and send a note home to the parents telling them about the kid's question. Suggest that they answer the child.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 21:26:33 GMT -5
How about the teacher just says "families come in all types".
You can't just pawn the question off to the parents because it makes the kid think they're asking about something that shouldn't be talked about. Just answer the kid.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:27:36 GMT -5
Yeah Heather, sorry... You can't talk about your family here... Shame, shame...
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Feb 11, 2013 21:27:52 GMT -5
Um...it's a fact, homosexual people exist. They have for as long as civilization has existed. They are not going away anytime soon. Honestly, ya need to just get over it. LOL, yes I realize gay folks are out there, and yes I'm over it. I don't see what that has to do with believing schools are places of learning, not places wax philosophy on homosexual relationships. I didn't bring it up, but since someone did, I commented. As mmhmm stated, schools are the happening place in a childs life. Lots more than just book learning goes on in those buildings. This is the place where a child learns most of the socialization skills they will use as an adult.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:27:54 GMT -5
Schools serve more than one purpose, as I see it. They're not just there to shovel facts in and have them parroted back. They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted. It's not "just gi'me the facts, ma'am". There's more to it than that, and that is as it should be. As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), but you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results. Personally, I think everyone is right about what critical thinking is. It is a process, but Virgil is right in the sense that people can choose wheather or not to engage in it. And I have to disagree, Kids don't need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures and personalites with which they'll be confronted, they need to be taught the facts AND how to analyze them by developing critical thinking skills so they can make up their own mind and react as individuals, rather than parroting what their teachers taught them as HOW to react.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Feb 11, 2013 21:28:42 GMT -5
How about the teacher just says "families come in all types". You can't just pawn the question off to the parents because it makes the kid think they're asking about something that shouldn't be talked about. Just answer the kid. Agreed.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 21:28:55 GMT -5
Yeah Heather, sorry... You can't talk about your family here... Shame, shame... Heather, sweetie, sorry you can't mention your parents. You need to be ashamed of your family because it upsets some people.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:30:05 GMT -5
As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), but you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results. I hate to differ with you, mmhmm. If one's can't think for themselves, how they can able to process the informations they received.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:30:52 GMT -5
Schools serve more than one purpose, as I see it. They're not just there to shovel facts in and have them parroted back. They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted. It's not "just gi'me the facts, ma'am". There's more to it than that, and that is as it should be. As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), but you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results. One of the first things we were taught was to be polite to people no matter their appearance, their manners or how they conducted themselves. You can be polite to people without agreeing with them.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:32:05 GMT -5
Yeah Heather, sorry... You can't talk about your family here... Shame, shame... Heather, sweetie, sorry you can't mention your parents. You need to be ashamed of your family because it upsets some people. Nobody said that, and you are taking it to playground childishness.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:32:05 GMT -5
How about the teacher just says "families come in all types". You can't just pawn the question off to the parents because it makes the kid think they're asking about something that shouldn't be talked about. Just answer the kid. Yes, I suppose that would be an acceptable answer. Though I don't think it's wrong to encourage kids to talk to their parents. When I was in biblical literature in high school, if someone asked a thorny theological question the teacher would say "that's a question for your parent's, priest, rabbi, Imam, or spritual leader of your choice."
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 21:32:36 GMT -5
Schools serve more than one purpose, as I see it. They're not just there to shovel facts in and have them parroted back. They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted. It's not "just gi'me the facts, ma'am". There's more to it than that, and that is as it should be. As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), but you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results. Personally, I think everyone is right about what critical thinking is. It is a process, but Virgil is right in the sense that people can choose wheather or not to engage in it. And I have to disagree, Kids don't need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures and personalites with which they'll be confronted, they need to be taught the facts AND how to analyze them by developing critical thinking skills so they can make up their own mind and react as individuals, rather than parroting what their teachers taught them as HOW to react. Ahem. Phoenix, where do you find I have said kids need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures and personalities? Hmmm? I didn't say that, at all. YOU said that. I said kids need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust and react, did I not? Do not twist my words, Phoenix. I don't take well to it.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:32:41 GMT -5
Personally, I think that if you don't like what Texas is teaching, don't move there.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:33:45 GMT -5
Yeah Heather, sorry... You can't talk about your family here... Shame, shame... Heather, sweetie, sorry you can't mention your parents. You need to be ashamed of your family because it upsets some people. Is that what you think? That Heather should be ashamed of her parents? I hope not. I imagine you're being sarcastic, no one has said or implied that here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:33:48 GMT -5
Then you best keep your kids out of school grits.
From the beginning schools were meant to homogenize to social norms.
There is a reason why the number one question you get when you homeschool is NOT about academics.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Feb 11, 2013 21:33:47 GMT -5
"Kids don't need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures"
Again, I disagree. Kids do and say stupid and offensive things sometimes like calling Joey who looks like he might be from India a "towel head". Guess where he learned that one? Or calling a 12 year old girl who isn't developing quite as quickly as her classmates a "lesbian" or a "l e s b o"
Children, particularly in large groups do indeed need to be taught what is an acceptable reaction to those who are different from them. That is what we expect in the greater community when these little darlings become adults.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:36:34 GMT -5
"Ahem. Phoenix, where do you find I have said kids need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures and personalities? Hmmm? I didn't say that, at all. YOU said that. I said kids need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust and react, did I not? Do not twist my words, Phoenix. I don't take well to it."
Sorry if I offended, you, but I quote the response I was refering to.
"They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted."
I interpreted "assisting in the socialization" as teaching kids how to react, instead of giving them the tools so they can react themselves. If I misunderstood your idea, I'm sorry.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 21:36:37 GMT -5
Heather, sweetie, sorry you can't mention your parents. You need to be ashamed of your family because it upsets some people. Is that what you think? That Heather should be ashamed of her parents? I hope not. I imagine you're being sarcastic, no one has said or implied that here. I am being sarcastic. There are people who do not want teachers talking about gay relationships at all, which would preclude children of gay couples speaking about their home life.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:36:53 GMT -5
Heather, sweetie, sorry you can't mention your parents. You need to be ashamed of your family because it upsets some people. Is that what you think? That Heather should be ashamed of her parents? I hope not. I imagine you're being sarcastic, no one has said or implied that here. No, just that if in a class discussion, heather mentions her mommies and one of the other kids asks about it, you should shut that conversation down real quick and send notes home to parents...
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:37:25 GMT -5
Then you best keep your kids out of school grits. From the beginning schools were meant to homogenize to social norms. There is a reason why the number one question you get when you homeschool is NOT about academics. Who decides what is the social norm? You? I think not. It is up to the parents to decide what the school can develop as an educational program. It is not up to the teachers or administrators to ram an agenda down the childrens throats.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 21:38:40 GMT -5
As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), but you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results. I hate to differ with you, mmhmm. If one's can't think for themselves, how they can able to process the informations they received. Most children are born with good minds. Not all are born with superior minds, but most are born with quite adequate minds. At first, children tend to mimic their parents. As they grow, interact socially (such as at school, and other public venues), and are confronted with lifestyles and cultures much different than their own, critical thinking becomes just what it says it is ... critical. We're not born knowing how to extract all the information we can from all the sources we can muster. These things are developed in us as we progress through our schooling. That's how we learn to process the information we receive. The richness of our sources compliments our natural curiosity, which leads to the desire to develop more knowledge. This is what must be encouraged through the development of critical thinking skills, IMO.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 21:40:16 GMT -5
"Ahem. Phoenix, where do you find I have said kids need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures and personalities? Hmmm? I didn't say that, at all. YOU said that. I said kids need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust and react, did I not? Do not twist my words, Phoenix. I don't take well to it." Sorry if I offended, you, but I quote the response I was refering to. "They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted." I interpreted "assisting in the socialization" as teaching kids how to react, instead of giving them the tools so they can react themselves. If I misunderstood your idea, I'm sorry. How in the heck you could interpret "assisting in the socialization" as teaching anyone how to react instead of giving them tools, I have absolutely no idea, Phoenix. I will, however, accept your apology.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:40:48 GMT -5
"Kids don't need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures" Again, I disagree. Kids do and say stupid and offensive things sometimes like calling Joey who looks like he might be from India a "towel head". Guess where he learned that one? Or calling a 12 year old girl who isn't developing quite as quickly as her classmates a "lesbian" or a "l e s b o" Children, particularly in large groups do indeed need to be taught what is an acceptable reaction to those who are different from them. That is what we expect in the greater community when these little darlings become adults. But doesn't teaching kids HOW to react to differences go against the idea of critical thinking? If you say "calling Joey a towel head is wrong and you should feel bad" is that not imposing your will on the kid and teaching him to accept your idea as immutable fact? Wouldn't it be better to teach your kid about the history and custom of wearing turbins and have your kid come to the realization himself?
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Feb 11, 2013 21:41:32 GMT -5
"It is up to the parents to decide what the school can develop as an educational program."
No, no it isn't. But if that's the way you feel, the you should home school.
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